THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Books & Discussion on the Holocaust
Thanks Jonny. Good luck with the rest of it.
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Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces
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I'd thoroughly recommend Cesarani's book Tony. It is detailed, graphic, informative and thought-provoking, and for a single volume will likely remain the foremost account for many years to my mind. Rather like Jonny this is why I have left
KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps by Nikolaus Wachsmann as I needed a significant break. I'd tried to read Cesarani and Wachsmann together to plot the wider German approach as I wanted to see the overlaps and also significant differences of the developing stories on camps, people, strategy and plans mixed with policy, war, and other countries and their local decisions. It started well but it became too much as personal stories, recorded accounts and the general mis-treatment, whilst adding worthy detail, mentally exhausted me; especially for a country [Germany] I have lived in and love a great deal. I shall return to Wachsmann as it is also very informative and very well researched.
Jonny wrote: "not sure I can stomach any more of this till next year now, though. "Mate the subject wore me down a long while ago.
Geevee wrote: "I'd thoroughly recommend Cesarani's book Tony. It is detailed, graphic, informative and thought-provoking, and for a single volume will likely remain the foremost account for many years to my mind...."Thanks for the recommendation Geevee. I read The Holocaust: The Jewish Tragedy
last year and found it excellent, although it did feel like Martin Gilbert had tried to chronicle every single holocaust death, and it became a particularly gruelling read. But it’s a subject I keep feeling drawn back to.
Martin Gilbert's book was the first book I read on the Holocaust and is still one of the best. I also have a copy of "KL" to read along with a hardback copy of this book:
Nazi Germany and the Jews: The Years of Extermination, 1939-1945 by Saul Friedländer
Gilbert's excellent. But i ended up reading it in chunks, it's monumentally tough. Wachsmann's book was easier, in emotional terms, but only by a little. Rees' earlier
Auschwitz: The Nazis & the 'Final Solution' is also a good title on the subject. Mind you, I read that before the Monsters came along. It's a whole different subject now.
Jonny wrote: "...I read that before the Monsters came along. It's a whole different subject now."I’m with you there Jonny, enough said.
Even though I've read hundreds of books on World War II, the Holocaust was a subject I avoided because it's just so damn depressing. However, last year I read
Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin and my interest was elevated enough that I've purchased KL and Rees' books on Auschwitz and the Holocaust. Like others have said, this is not something you can read about all the time, and since I have a book on the Rape of Nanking on this year's reading list, these others are going to have to wait until at least next year.
"Bloodlands" was a very interesting read and I think you will find your book on the Rape of Nanking an engrossing account.
Thanks to all the people who 'liked' my review of
; I've now managed to collect my thoughts here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in PolandI'm sure this excellent book is mentioned somewhere in this thread. It tries to explain how 'normal people' came to be murderers caught up in the holocaust. It's the matter of fact and dry way in which it's written that makes the book so chilling.
Thanks for mentioning "Ordinary Men". That's still a book I'm yet to read Grant
Required reading for my dissertation research in grad school, Browning is spot on.
Seems like I better get around to it sooner than later!
Holocaust books isn't something I can stomach on a monthly basis. So far they comfort me by their quality. An unexpected find in Budapest's Massolit Books & Café .
If you show up early... the hotel bar across the street already serves a mean White Russian :-)
Into That Darkness: An Examination of Conscience by Gitta Serenyhttps://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Nice find Dimitri, are you on holiday's again? :)
East West Street: On the Origins of "Genocide" and "Crimes Against Humanity"byPhilippe SandsWhat is it about ?
The official Goodreads synopsis is so long-winded, I rather refer to the short but passionate review by Dem from the Emerald Island:
"Two remarkable men from the city of Lviv who's tirelessly worked to have the terms "Crimes against humanity" and "genocide" in the judgement at Nuremberg".
link to review:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
Years ago I picked up a book from my Library, Called A JUMP FOR LIFE. Has anyone else ever read this book? I read it years ago. That book has always stayed in my memory it was just such a amazing story.... haunting too..
Never read anything like it since. I will see if I can find a picture of the book.
I'm sure it's a book that will interest a number of the group members Layla, thanks for mentioning it.
Jump for Life by Ruth Altbeker Cyprys
I recall saying this subject had worn me down but me being me could not resist buying KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps for a mere $10 brand new. (I knew I should have gone shopping with my wife instead of hanging around the book shop) Anyway I have read the first 10 pages of the prologue and am going to get into it as the writer is very compelling in presentation. I was interested to read his comparisons to the Soviet Gulag system with the Nazi KL system. The author writes "In all, some ninety percent of inmates survived the Gulag; in the KL the figure amongst registered prisoners was less than half." He footnotes to 5 historians to back this point. I have to admit to being surprised at that survival rate in the Gulags.
I will be keen to hear your thoughts on the book 4ZZZ as I have an unread copy sitting waiting for me to read :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I will be keen to hear your thoughts on the book 4ZZZ as I have an unread copy sitting waiting for me to read :)"I think there will be lots of very quotable quotes in this book so will add anything that I find interesting.
Perfect as I'm sure there will be a few group members also nterested in the book.
The author writes of Walter Winter a German Sinto. Winter has a book Winter Time: Memoirs of a German Sinto who Survived AuschwitzThe term Sinto was not one I had read before or at least if I had I did not recall. Romani may have been used in the other literature I have read over the year. I did a search on the term and wiki gave a few famous names such as the wonderful Django Reinhardt. One name they gave was Johann Trollmann. I had read a fair bit of boxing history in my youth but this name passed me by. His wiki makes an interesting read, but as is usual with this subject, also a sad one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_...
Nikolaus Wachsmann is a brilliant writer. I put what I have read so far up there with Evans. I was interested to read the early demographic make up of the guards in the early SA camps and propensity to violence. Wachsmann writes that neither male nor female camps guards were selected for their brutality. The recruitment of the guards was fairly haphazard and they tended to come from within the Nazi party itself, came from mainly working and lower class background and most were young men who had not fought in the Great War but had been hard hit by the economic upheavals and had "sought salvation in radical politics". By nature these people were attracted to the violent winner take all of ideology of Nazism hence any violence towards prisoners was natural. Also the street violence of some working class areas meant that opponents were known to each other as they sometimes recognised each other. The author noted that Dachua prisoner had written that the worst thing that could happen was to be recognised by a guard.
I was really impressed with KL, it contextualized so much of the Holocaust in the wider picture of Nazi 'justice'.
4triplezed wrote: "Nikolaus Wachsmann is a brilliant writer. I put what I have read so far up there with Evans. I was interested to read the early demographic make up of the guards in the early SA camps and propens..."
Zed, you seem to be working your way through my 'to read' list at the moment - hope this is a good one.
4triplezed wrote: "I recall saying this subject had worn me down but me being me could not resist buying KL: A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps for a mere $10 brand new. ."U lucky lucky B - ook buyer....it's a great book.
Just finished the first chapter and it was a great read indeed. I think of one reads a bit on this over the years it is sometimes hard to read things new but this first chapter certainly threw up some stuff I did not know. What I will say is that when large chunks of the German post war population claimed no knowledge I was certain that they were not telling the truth. I now know they were not telling the truth. The Nazis from within a week of setting up the camps were defending their existence. Yes they had not reached the future system with the massacre of Jews, etc but their political enemies were on the receiving end in the early days and many in fact supported them in the conservative middle classes. In the working class industrial areas everyone knew someone who had suffered in the camps.
Superb writer is the author. And the footnotes have been absolutely top of the shelf so far. There is an excellent Sources guide as well.
Anyway I don't intend to read this quickly. This is because the subject is stressful and I know I will need a few days break here and there.
A comprehensive history of the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany holocaust, is available in English and Romany: Bibaxtale berša. The lack of direct documentary evidence is one of the reasons this aspect of the Nazis' master plan is so unknown. Nevertheless, the authors have done a remarkable job in pulling together what evidence does exist, and interviewing survivors.
4triplezed wrote: "Just finished the first chapter and it was a great read indeed. I think of one reads a bit on this over the years it is sometimes hard to read things new but this first chapter certainly threw up..."
Sounds like I really need to try and bring this book to the top of my to read pile!
John wrote: "A comprehensive history of the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany holocaust, is available in English and Romany: Bibaxtale berša. The lack of direct documentary evidence is one of th..."You may want to check out A Gypsy in Auschwitz by Otto Rosenberg. I read this some time ago and note now that one reviewer complains of the translation, though I don't note a similar problem.
Liz wrote: "John wrote: "A comprehensive history of the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany holocaust, is available in English and Romany: Bibaxtale berša. The lack of direct documentary evidence..."Thanks
Most people, even historians, who do not closely review the documentation or conduct the interviews from the participants et al, fail to understand something. The concentration camp system started at Dachau in 1933, and Theodor Eicke was the first commandant.Communists, trade unionists, religious groups of all factions considered subversive were openly arrested and thrown into the lager. This was for mass public consumption, a warning to all that "toe the line or join them." What is not usually understood was the reasons why 90% of all death camps (different from concentration camps by design) were located in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and the Baltic for a reason; secrecy.
Heinrich Himmler explained why in 1942, following Heydrich holding the Jan 20 1942 Wannsee Conference. Paraphrasing he told a group of senior SS officers: "What we do must be done in secret, as our people, and the rest of the world will not understand our righteous cause. However, history will prove that our efforts were justified."
Yes, all Germans knew about the lagers, but the creation of dedicated extermination camps was classified "Most Secret" and only those SS men who were vetted for part loyalty and blind obedience were chosen to work in the camps.
Discussing their existence and purpose to anyone outside the fold was a court-martial offense. One SS man had taken photos and when the film was developed, they were discovered. He was fired and sent to the Eastern Front.
In my interviews with over 20 SS and Waffen SS officers, including generals, I was amazed at which ones were acutely aware of the death camps, but turned a blind eye, and those who were intentionally kept in the dark. All of this was corroborated by Karl Wolff. Himmler kept a list of "reliable types" he felt could be trusted with this information, and those who he knew would object openly. I have that list still.
Not even Hitler and Himmler thought that their own people could accept industrial mass murder en masse. They really feared the Allies learning about the camps, as that would be prime propaganda material for their war effort.
If people believed that the Third Reich did not value secrecy in these operations, then they have to ask themselves, "why did the SS not just set up shop in downtown Berlin?" The answer is simple, they knew they were wrong, and secrecy helped the hierarchy hold the moral high ground, if such a thing was possible.
Liz wrote: "John wrote: "A comprehensive history of the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany holocaust, is available in English and Romany: Bibaxtale berša. The lack of direct documentary evidence..."putting it on my to-read list. Thanks Liz. I think there was a brief but searing mention of what the gypsies were up against in Chil Rajchman's "The Last Jew of Treblinka."
Colin wrote: "Most people, even historians, who do not closely review the documentation or conduct the interviews from the participants et al, fail to understand something. "It is not a matter of "understanding something". My understanding of events and yours could be two different things. There are two things in my history reading. Firstly facts such as the date of an event and secondly opinions, for example, "did the German peoples know that the Nazis were doing some very evil things such as exterminate Jews". In my opinion corroboration of anything at all by Karl Wolfe is suspect. He was as high up in the echelon of SS as it can get. I mean chief of the Personal Staff of the Reich Leader of the SS? He had every reason to say anything at all to make himself look like a lessor evil. And the Nazi hierarchy was not that interested in secrecy in my opinion. They paid lip service to that. From beginning days of their very existence they made it abundantly clear as to who they were out to destroy and that included those such as soft social democrats through to the Jews. It was a constant theme. I have read and seen (though admittedly relied on translation) many of the top hierarchy of the Nazi party make speech after speech telling the public what they would do.
Your comment "why did the SS not just set up shop in downtown Berlin?" makes little sense to me. Why not build put an abattoir next door to your house? Why not mine. I presume like me you live in the middle of suburbia. I know this is a facetious retort but you get the point surely. Why the hell would the Nazis stick death camps next to the masses of people they supposedly represent?
As to secrecy the SS employed what? 750,000 people in total and run the camps from France to Russia and no one said a word to a loved one or got drunk down the beer hall and not blabbed? I don’t buy it. The public watched Jews disappear towards the east and thought nothing even though they knew their forces were fighting mercilessly on the Russian front? I just don’t buy it.
From my readings over the years the German public at large lived a perfectly normal life and knew that it would remain normal if they kept their mouth shut and their noses clean. For what it’s worth I get that. In my opinion they were bound to suffer a form of collective amnesia.
Wachman says that Hilmar Wäckerle was the first commandant of Dachau. Wachman was replaced by Eicke who came to Dachau after a term in a mental asylum. He says that Eicke "mastermind the transformation" of the camp.
Waeckerle supervised the construction and staffing with police guards, but Eicke was appointed by Himmler to oversee the "reeducation" program at Dachau as the first official commandant. There were a few courts martial of SS men who worked at camps (remember that 70% of the camp guards outside of Germany and Austria were Hilfswillige, volunteer auxiliaries). Himmler's personal order was to ensure that the men working there did not speak of their "work". Wolff never denied what happened, he simply stated that his superiors did not trust such information being openly discussed. Their paranoia runneth over, and probably for good reason. I relied upon information from dozens of interviews that corroborated each other over the years.
Eicke was definitely a dangerous man. He was provided great responsibilities after commanding the SS troops who launched Operation Kolibri, the Night of the Long Knives against Roehm and the SA. He became a most trusted officer and given command of 3rd Waffen SS following Barbarossa.
The senior officers I did meet with who all learned about the Holocaust at some point each had their own method of dealing with it, albeit non effectively.
One of the themes of Rees
is the high level of complicity of the German population in carrying out the Nazi's plans from the assumption of power onwards; it's uncomfortable reading, in a 'There but for the grace of God' sense and I understand the societal pressure and the inevitable consequences of resistance.However Wachsmann points out that although the early camps were not death camps, inmates were "liquidated" (a hideous phrase) on order from above and the miniscule number of so-called "court marshals" resulting from these illustrates the lethal nature of the camps from the outset. Added to this, once war broke out even these "laagers" became death camps as policy shifted toward working the inmates to death
Furthermore Colin, the very deterrent effect you mention meant that domestic KL were built close to cities. Simple human nature would point toward conditions being made public, regardless of how total the Gestapo or SS grip on the population may have been. The T4 euthanasia programme did not remain secret for long, don't forget.
The myth that the German population was unaware of the Final Solution or conditions in the KL ring as hollow as the myth of the"good German".
Good comments by all on a terrible subject, I have read all your posts with interest. Your comments 4ZZZ and Jonny I agree with and if I remember correctly was also supported in the book; "The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939–45" by Nicholas Stargardt
The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939-1945 by Nicholas Stargardt
I might have to chase these two down eventually. More added to my wish list. As if I need more books "sigh"
The T$ program once exposed and condemned by the Catholic Church and other organizations, that was very embarrassing to the Hitlerian faithful. I would argue T4 was never halted, just placed on hold, exported and enhanced later. Many of the early camps were actually publicized as a propaganda tool to accomplish two political objectives: 1-We are removing the dangerous elements from society to protect you, 2-We are rounding up all of you dangerous elements if we catch you (hence get out of Germany).
The German population as a great whole was unaware by design; those who did learn of it for the most part either disbelieved, joined in the fun, or joined the internal resistance groups.
There was a reason the Final Solution was marked Most Secret, and of all the programs marked with such a classification (Peenemuende, atomic research, Enigma, etc), it was the only one to have foreign volunteers welcomed into the fold, mostly Baltic and Ukrainian volunteers.
It is easy to read books by historians, as good as they may be, and come to a conclusion but unless they interviewed both participants and victims alike, what they offer is historical opinion minus the first person human element.
I would challenge anyone to believe that every American knew about, and supported the Tuskegee syphilis experiments. Throw that out there and most people to this day will have no idea what you are talking about.
I have had a look back at my original comment and I said "What I will say is that when large chunks of the German post war population claimed no knowledge I was certain that they were not telling the truth. I now know they were not telling the truth." I should have said "I know know that many were not telling the truth" I have done a bit of further online research and have found much comment, discussion and opinion on this subject.
Interestingly there is a book that has come up that is on Goodreads What We Knew: Terror, Mass Murder, and Everyday Life in Nazi Germany
The authors themselves disagree on how many people knew. Lisa Pine writes "Interestingly, the authors disagree on how widespread knowledge of the Holocaust was among the German population. Reuband believes one third of the population knew about the mass murder of the Jews, while Johnson estimates that half of the German population did. Their disagreement on this is based on their different interpretations about the age group surveyed. Johnson argues that Reuband's estimate is too low because two thirds of the sample group were still teenagers when the war broke out and the older survey respondents were much more aware of the mass murder at the time than the younger ones. Regardless of the discrepancy between their estimates, Reuband and Johnson concur and conclude that it is nevertheless clear that "the mass murder of the European Jews was no secret to millions of German citizens while it was still being carried out".
I call either one third of a half a large chunk who knew of mass murder on an industrial scale. With that I still suspect many suffered a form of amnesia when asked. And yes we can turn a blind eye to events if we so wish. Most Australians have little to no knowledge of the genocide committed in Van Diemen's Land but then that and the Tuskegee syphilis experiments did not involve circa 44,000 extermination, concentration and labour camps. Konnilyn Feig writes in Hitler's Death Camps: The Sanity of Madness. Paperback
"All spheres of life in Germany actively participated."
"Businessmen, policemen, bankers, doctors, lawyers, soldiers, railroad and factory workers, chemists, pharmacists, foremen, production managers, economists, manufacturers, jewelers, diplomats, civil servants, propagandists, film makers and film stars, professors, teachers, politicians, mayors, party members, construction experts, art dealers, architects, landlords, janitors, truck drivers, clerks, industrialists, scientists, generals, and even shopkeepers—all were essential cogs in the machinery that accomplished the final solution.”
Both good and interesting posts Colin and 4ZZZ. I doubt if we will ever really know how much of the Germany population knew and to what degree but I find it hard to believe that such an issue could be hidden from general view. My reading of Martin Gilbert's masterful book; "The Holocaust" along with Laurence Ree's books; "Auschwitz: The Nazis & The 'Final Solution'" and "The Holocaust: A New History" plus a few others leads me to believe that a large portion of the German population knew of the extermination camps during the war.
Perhaps some distinction must be made between what people knew and what they had heard rumors of. I have been struck by the level of denial evidenced by survivors. So many of them feared but did not know.
Unfortunately the degree of scholarship provided by Rees and Wachsmann renders that point moot. And that's before we even get started on the activities of the Wehrmacht, both directly and indirectly - bear in mind that continued resistance bought the murder machine more time to operate. The scale of the crime and the degree of contact or complicity in the operation (think of all the civilian jobs required in a single transport) make some degree of knowledge, directly or by rumour, almost inevitable. And I don't think that it would take much to put two and two together and confirm any rumour.
Jonny wrote: "Unfortunately the degree of scholarship provided by Rees and Wachsmann renders that point moot. And that's before we even get started on the activities of the Wehrmacht, both directly and indirectl..."I don't question that personal knowledge, of at least some aspects, was much broader than admitted. What I cannot decide is the degree of general knowledge.
My thought is that the means of communication that makes knowledge and rumors so ubiquitous today were non-existent or controlled. No TV. Radio and newspapers controlled. Telephones rare. Public and even private discourse threatened by informants. Letters censored. Travel curtailed.
Therefore, a clerk might know about a roundup in, say, France without any sense of the whole horror.
Why so many excuses and rationalizations?Everyone knew of shops violently closed, houses emptied synagogues ransacked pillaged and burned.
Everyone knew some one who with their entire family disappeared.
Everyone could hear the hate and bile that was part of official policy. Everyone saw, heard or had their hands in enforcing policies that forced people out of jobs, and schools.
If they only(?) knew about concentration camps and not death camps, why is that important? We do understand that existence in a concentration camp was not about keeping the internees. children and the elderly included; alive, NM happy?
People were violently removed from society in full view and never returned.
The camps were run not by uniforms, but by civilians. Employees went home every day and talked about work with their friends and families- every day.
No one knew anyone who ever returned. All these people could do that much math.
The rest is details, excuses, and evasions.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World (other topics)The Escape Artist: The Man Who Broke Out of Auschwitz to Warn the World (other topics)
The Unspeakable: Breaking my Family's Silence surrounding the Holocaust (other topics)
Something Beautiful Happened: A Story of Survival and Courage in the Face of Evil (other topics)
If This is a Woman: Inside Ravensbrück: Hitler's Concentration Camp for Women (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jonathan Freedland (other topics)Nicola Hanefeld (other topics)
Yvette Manessis Corporon (other topics)
Sarah Helm (other topics)
Sarah Helm (other topics)
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Very good, although the shift from theory and policy to implementation is always the hardest bit, I'm preparing for a tough ride from here on in. Reading of the French separating thousands of kids from their patents and leaving the wee ones to their own devices while waiting to ship them off to Auschwitz was really tough. Shouldn't have read it while doing reading tune with the little 'un.
I've got Cesarani piled up, not sure I can stomach any more of this till next year now, though.