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Books & Discussion on the Holocaust
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Pamela
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Jan 18, 2018 08:31AM
That is awesome, Sweetwilliam. I read Gulag when I was in ninth grade and was horrified ( though I didn't finish it; it was too much for me at that age) Still, I know it contributed to my world view and appreciation for democracy, no matter how flawed a system it may be.
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Thank you Pamela. I loved your book "No Reply" and I have passed it around the family but Gulag Archipelago does not flow nearly as easy and it isn't nearly as uplifting because it is without a happy ending. The author is also enraged while he was writing it and he goes off on tangents. If you didn't make it to the end you missed the gulag uprising. The gulag that Solzhenitsyn was in staged a protest due to unfair work conditions. There was a work stoppage. After several days of a stand off and negotiations, the Soviets told the prisoners that their demands would be met. The next day the camp was crushed under the treads of tanks and strafed by planes!!! Can you imagine?
The author also explains why it is such a plodding read. The book was just a collection of his notes that he had to hide all over the Soviet Union and he was raided as he was smuggling out pieces of the book so that it could be published. He never was able to proofread a manuscript. As a writer yourself, can you imagine writing and publishing a book under these conditions? Vasily Grossman experienced the same when writing Life and Fate except he never lived to see it published.
Now that you've called my attention to it, I have to go back and read Gulag soon. I can't imagine being a writer under such circumstances. The courage it took, knowing the penalty to be paid if such a manuscript were discovered. And also to write under the most extreme of physical conditions and hardships. And not to succumb to despair. It is hard not to be in awe of writers who endured so much for the cause of freedom and justice.
The reason for former Soviet POWs being sent to gulags was simple; under Soviet law surrender and capture were not an option, it was illegal. Therefore, anyone captured was deemed a traitor, and treated accordingly. Part of the Yalta Conference agreement was that Roosevelt and Stalin agreed to hand over: 1-All Soviets liberated from camps (without disclosing their eventual fates), 2-All Germans captured east of the Oder River were Soviet property. When American units captured Germans, they were ordered to hand over those prisoners to Soviet forces. See Erich Hartmann's first person description of this event in my book The German Aces Speak II.
Another fun factoid for those interested, is that Stalin issued an order to Levrenti Beria that all severely wounded veterans, in particular amputees were also to be sent to the camps. He did not want the Soviet public at large to see that "The New Soviet Man" was less than perfect after winning the Great Patriotic War. These heroes were also thrown away like garbage, just because they did not appear "normal" after the war.
As an exercise in abject futility, watch the old Soviet victory parade films, and the highlights of veterans with their decorations. Not an amputee among them.
Pamela wrote: "Now that you've called my attention to it, I have to go back and read Gulag soon. I can't imagine being a writer under such circumstances. The courage it took, knowing the penalty to be paid if suc..."My paternal grandfather was a member of the Italian Alpine troops during WWI and served on a machine gun before being captured by the Austrians. He kept a diary for awhile during his captivity, but at some point he figured he'd never get out of the prison camp alive, so he burned it. I nearly cried when I found out about this as a teenager. Definitely takes a strong will and sense that you will survive to go through with such an undertaking.
Marc wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Now that you've called my attention to it, I have to go back and read Gulag soon. I can't imagine being a writer under such circumstances. The courage it took, knowing the penalty to..."Wow, Marc. What a story. and yes, a tremendous loss. Did your uncle survive? If not, how did you find out about the diary ?
Pamela wrote: "Marc wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Now that you've called my attention to it, I have to go back and read Gulag soon. I can't imagine being a writer under such circumstances. The courage it took, knowing t..."It was my grandfather, and yes he survived. I first found out about his diary when I was listening to a taped interview he did with my cousin in which he sort of chronicled his life. He was imprisoned for around a year and forced to work in whatever area(s) the Austrians wanted him to. Ended up losing about 100 pounds of body weight before being set free. While I'm not entirely certain, I think my grandfather was captured during the Battle of Caporetto.
that is fascinating. what a family history. how wonderful that your cousin was able to tape an interview !
Interesting, your grandfather would have been one of those captured perhaps by a young Leutnant Erwin Rommel, and that battle earned him the Pour le Merite
Great bit of family history there Marc!
Colin wrote: "The reason for former Soviet POWs being sent to gulags was simple; under Soviet law surrender and capture were not an option, it was illegal. Therefore, anyone captured was deemed a traitor, and tr..."Thanks for the explanation Colen. On page 107 of the abridged version, Solzhenitsyn documents how the "English turned over to the Soviets a Cossack corp of forty to forty-five thousand that had fought its way from Austria to Yugoslavia. The extradition was carried out with a perfidy characteristic of British diplomatic tradition. The gist of the matter is that the Cossacks meant to fight to death or emigrate overseas....as long as they would not have to surrender to the Soviets alive." They were tricked into turning over their weapons and told they were getting new weapons. "On May 28th all officers...were summoned separately from their soldiers to the town of Judenberg, on the pretext they would confer with Field Marshal Alexander about the future fate of the Army. En route, the officers were surreptitiously put under a strong escort. and the hole motorcade was gradually surrounded by Soviet tanks. When they arrived in Judenburg, police vans were waiting and armed guards with lists of names. They could not even shoot or stab themselves to death, since all their weapons had been taken away. " The book goes on to described how the men jumped off viaducts and threw themselves under the tracks of tanks, etc. anything but go back to the Soviet Union.
S. explains "The democratic West simply could not understand: What do you mean when you call yourselves a political opposition? An opposition exists inside your country? Why has it never publicly declared its existence? If you are dissatisfied with Stalin, go back home...and do not re-elect him. That would be the honest course....No, we have to extradite you; it would be terribly bad form to act otherwise, and we might spoil our relations with a gallant ally.
He goes on to say "...the West kept defending its own freedom and defended it for itself. As for Eastern Europe, it buried us in an even absolute hopeless slavery."
Elsewhere on page 106 S. wrote "The West had to understand that Bolshevism is an enemy for all mankind."
I said earlier that the local high school allowed the students to start a communism club. Image if those kids wanted to start a National Socialist club. There would be hell to pay. Should they not be reading these words?
I read a very good book on that incident Sweetwilliam (the handing over of Russian POW's to the Soviets):
The Minister And The Massacres by Nikolai TolstoyRepublished as:
Victims of Yalta: The Secret Betrayal of the Allies: 1944-1947 by Nikolai TolstoyGood review on this book:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v1/v1n4p371_lu...
Thanks for the review. This is like the Voyage of the Damned SS St Louis but about a few thousand times worse. It is one thing when Stalin kills or sends Russians to the gulag. It is another when the West helps in the process. Why did 1-million Russians serve in Wehrmacht? Solzhenitsyn spoe of the old proverb that says "well fed horses don't rampage." And he went on to say, "Then picture yourself in a field in which starved, neglected, crazed horses are rampaging back and forth."
Very apt proverb as quoted by Solzhenitsyn!
I vow to buy no more books, then i log in to this discussion ... In any event, thank you all for this thread. Ordering Victims of Yalta. It is just a searing tragedy, how bravery and sacrifice for one's country can be rewarded with such cruelty.
Sweetwilliam wrote: "Colin wrote: "The reason for former Soviet POWs being sent to gulags was simple; under Soviet law surrender and capture were not an option, it was illegal. Therefore, anyone captured was deemed a t..."The German in command of the Cossack Corps was Gen Pannwitz, and the Cossacks worshiped him. They made a special sword for him, and provided him with a bodyguard. Once when SS Lt. Gen. Paul Hausser arrived with an inspection team, the Cossacks surrounded the SS men with swords and rifles at the ready. They suspected they were coming to take him away from them, and were ready to kill the SS men.
The primary leader of the anti-Soviet Free Russian Army of Liberation (ROA) was former Soviet Lt. Gen and defector Andrei Vlasov, who was supported by Abwehr Chief Gen. Reinhard Gehlen. Heinrich Himmler even paid them a visit once when on an inspection tour of the Soviet defectors. He wanted to ensure they were racially suited to be included within the Waffen SS should they desire.
The Cossack leadership was less than impressed with Himmler. Kneaz (Cossack prince and grand nephew of Tsar Nicholas II) Leonidas Damianov Maximciuc was there that day, as he was a Free Russian fighter pilot in ROA, and he was my friend. He told me the same story that Lt. Gen. Hans Baur (Hitler's personal pilot) and SS Major Gen. Otto Kumm told me. All three corroborated each other on this.
Pannwitz was selected to lead the Don Cossacks for his knowledge of Russian language, horsemanship and fierce anti-Communist position, as well his being a respected counterinsurgency cavalry leader.
Stalin's orders were clear to Levrenti Beria: "Get the Cossacks and all others, and make this problem go away." Vlasov was also handed over and hanged in a great spectacle.
Beevor should write a book (or maybe I should) on Japanese atrocities against POWs, mass murder and rapes, and Unit 731's operations and then see how the Japanese government would respond to it all. He should not be that surprised at the Ukrainians.
I've read a few books on Unit 731, there is this new book which covers this Japanese unit, the trial and aftermath of WW2:
Hidden Atrocities: Japanese Germ Warfare and American Obstruction of Justice at the Tokyo Trial by Jeanne Guillemin
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've read a few books on Unit 731, there is this new book which covers this Japanese unit, the trial and aftermath of WW2:[bookcover:Hidden Atrocities: Japanese Germ Warfare and American Obstruct..."
Aussie Rick, do you have a recommendation on a book about Unit 731 ?
Hi Pamela, the first book that I read on the subject and the one that had the most impact for me was this title:
Unit 731: Japanese Army's Secret of Secrets by Peter Williams
I hope you find it as interesting as I did, keep us posted :)
Just finished a pretty great book, The Texas Liberators: Veteran Narratives from World War IIIt was published as part of the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission and includes photographs and transcriptions of interviews with Texans who liberated some of the camps. Some great stories of how they enlisted as well.
Jenn wrote: "Just finished a pretty great book, The Texas Liberators: Veteran Narratives from World War IIIt was published as part of the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission and includes p..."
Hi Jenn ... can you tell me a little about the book, since it's not possible to look inside on Amazon. How many pages, how many soldiers are interviewed, etc.
Pamela wrote: "Jenn wrote: "Just finished a pretty great book, The Texas Liberators: Veteran Narratives from World War IIIt was published as part of the Texas Holocaust and Genocide Commission a..."
21 veterans are interviewed as part of an oral history project through Baylor University, though 300 or so Texas liberators are identified. Text runs 85 pages with photos following, but the book is quite large, 10x10, so it's pretty hefty. A couple of the interviews are slightly disjointed, as the excerpts are part of much larger interviews, but overall, I really thought it was great and read it in one sitting.
The THGC actually published this to supplement classroom instruction and a statewide project to include Holocaust education in the curriculum, and while I can see using these narratives for that, I also think it stands quite well on its own, especially for those interested in oral history.
Less well known is the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany Holocaust, in which at least 500,000 Romanies perished. This is dealt with as part of a wider exploration of WWII in the former Yugoslavia in the book The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip.
Jovo wrote: "Less well known is the Porrajmos or Uštavipe, the Romany Holocaust, in which at least 500,000 Romanies perished. This is dealt with as part of a wider exploration of WWII in the former Yugoslavia i..."Looks like a very interesting book, thanks for posting the details Jovo.
Put in a start tonight on Laurence Rees
The Holocaust: A New History. Interested by the hint in the introduction that it might well go partway to asking "What were the German people thinking?"
Jonny wrote: "Put in a start tonight on Laurence Rees The Holocaust: A New History. Interested by the hint in the introduction that it might well..."Good luck, Jonny. Let me know if you find the answer....
Jonny wrote: "Put in a start tonight on Laurence Rees The Holocaust: A New History. Interested by the hint in the introduction that it might well..."I hope you find it as interesting as I did, keep us all posted.
Jonny wrote: "Put in a start tonight on Laurence Rees The Holocaust: A New History. Interested by the hint in the introduction that it might well..."After looking at the information on this book and several others by the same author, it looks like I'm going to need to pad the TBR pile a bit more.
I thought it was a pretty good book Marc. I've read a few titles by Laurence Rees and I haven't been disappointed yet.
Currently watching Son of Saul on the liberation date of Auschwitz. Bought the DVD in Budapest, fitting.Seven minutes in, the Sondernkommando protagonist stands stoically against the wall as the cries for help echo.
Ten minutes in, a gas chamber survivor is marked for autopsy. The girl (cfr. "the grey zone ") is mentioned.
Fourteen minutes, in "back to work" and a baby's cries are heard among the people who are undressing.
I'm already psychologically sick. :-(
It sounds like pretty harrowing viewing Dimitri. I found this review of the movie:https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016...
Dimitri wrote: "Currently watching Son of Saul on the liberation date of Auschwitz. Bought the DVD in Budapest, fitting.Seven minutes in, the Sondernkommando protagonist stands stoically against the wall as the ..."
So it sounds like a powerful movie. I will pass I think. I can barely stand to read a book on the subject once ever five years or so.
I'm only able to manage one a year, so long as they're pretty academic.. Gilbert's
put me of for years. Even watching Schindler (interestingly my autocorrect wanted to say Swindler) is a bit much, and that's Holocaust lite.But I managed a wry chuckle yesterday when I read of the pre-power Nazis objections to the opening of a Woolworths in Hannover as a Jewish enterprise. All part of their reinforcement of the pre-existing anti Semitic feeling in Germany, it would seem. King of backfires when it turns out they're a Methodist outfit.
Interesting too that German anti-Semitism seems quite abstract, in the early life of the party - it's ok to have Jewish friends, as long as they're good lads, and even the Poison Dwarf Goebbels has a girlfriend with Jewish ancestry. Interesting.
All of the upper echelons of the Third Reich were hypocrites. None of the hierarchy even met there own self imposed standards for "Aryanism." They gave passes when it was convenient: Admiral Bernhard Rogge, Knights Cross recipient, successful surface raider and commander of naval surface forces was Jewish; Erhard Milch, 2nd only to Goering in the Luftwaffe was Jewish, and the list goes on.
Jonny wrote: "I'm only able to manage one a year, so long as they're pretty academic.. Gilbert's put me of for years. Even watching Schindler (interestingly my..."I found Gilbert's book hard work, but compelling. I'll be interested to see how you compare the two Jonny. And one a year sounds about right to me too!
My experience with Gilbert is that he's a bit like Glantz - it's a hard slog but worthwhile for the education you will get in the end.
Whilst a work of fiction I recently read "Fugitive Pieces" by the Canadian writer Anna Michaels. It is a compelling novel that highlights the impact on survivors of the holocaust in a post WW2 life including their families and dear ones. For example one survivor now living in Toronto won't answer loud knocking on his door when a flood is occurring because of his experience with the Nazis. Highlights the long term impacts from the perspectives of a young boy whose family is killed in Poland and he is rescued and from the son of two holocaust survivors in Toronto
Given the recent controversy on Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad in the Ukraine, I'm wondering how Rees'
is going down in France? I've just read the section on the French deportations of 1942: bad enough in itself, but prefaced with the pretty scorching comment "In France in particular, the Nazis were able to exploit many pre-existing prejudices - not just anti Semitic beliefs, but fear of foreigners and dislike of immigrants.It's all pretty no holds barred stuff - having laid bare the complicity of ordinary Germans and especially the military in the persecution of the Jews, we're moving on to the complicity of the rest of Europe. Tough reading
Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame the holocaust entirely on the Nazis appears to be an over-simplification.
Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame the holocaust entirely on the Nazis appears to be an ove..."The point is made fairly early on that "No Hitler [and by extension Germans] no Holocaust." - that's Ian Kershaw, who knows more than a thing or two about these things. Industrialised murder of "alien" or "anti-social" elements - the book is at pains to document persecution of Roma and Sinti, communists, the mentally ill.. (I could go on...it's such a long list) - was a German policy aim. The point of the current chapter is that now that the Germans have settled on this policy, they are now relying on the existing anti Semitism in Europe to realise their goal.
Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame the holocaust entirely on the Nazis appears..."I'm not disagreeing Jonny : no Hitler, no Holocaust. The point I was trying to make was that (from what I've read) there was a fair degree of existing anti-semitism, and others were complicit. Fertile soil.
Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame the holocaust entirely on the..."Sorry, high horse time there. France, Poland and Romania have been singled out as particular hotbeds to one degree or another, it only takes one little push.
Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame the holocaust en..."There will be other examples, but I guess I was thinking about Warsaw. When the ghetto was created and later “liquidised” (a dreadful use of the word!) some locals risked everything to help Jews, but it seems that many (most?) either turned their backs, or even helped the Nazis (informing etc). Then, in 1944...
Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, and to blame th...""When they came for the communists I didn't speak out, because I wasn't a communist..."? And all that?
Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Jonny wrote: "Tony wrote: "Interesting stuff Jonny, and I’ve read similar in books about Warsaw. There was clearly a degree of pre existing anti-semitism, an..."So how is the book Jonny (other than difficult, obviously)? I’m thinking of either this, or
Final Solution: The Fate of the Jews 1933-49 later this year.
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