THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

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LAND, AIR & SEA > Books & Discussion on the Holocaust

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message 451: by cameron (new)

cameron 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Here are two early publications on some different aspects of the Holocaust:

Hitler's Willing Executioners Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen by [author:Daniel Jonah Goldhagen|5..."


I also thought this was a unique point of view. Though written a little like someones dissertation, the points made refuting many commonly held notions were fascinating.


message 452: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3812 comments Thanks Cameron, another one for group members who are interested in this subject areas to explore.


message 453: by Colin (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 2011 comments In my book, Occupation and Insurgency, I point out some of Goldhagen's waeknesses in his analysis and historical overview, but a good book nonetheless.


message 454: by Bevan Lewis (new)

Bevan Lewis | 119 comments I must re-read Goldhagen. I disagree with his premise though. As Ian Kershaw I think points out its ludicrous to imagine some built-in eliminationist antisemitism in the German people when in fact Germany was a chosen destination for Jews even in the 1920s. Additionally he fails to explain how the unique antisemitism relates to the cruelties of Ukrainians, Latvians and Estonians, and how it vanished abruptly after WW2.

I'm going to read Timothy Snyder's Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning which looks like a good contemporary account.


message 455: by Timothy (new)

Timothy Miyahara (pessimisticoptimist) | 64 comments Thanks, Michael. I've been looking for a good comprehensive book on just this subject,


message 456: by Manray9 (last edited Nov 08, 2015 02:02PM) (new)

Manray9 | 4802 comments Occasionally I see articles, especially in the British and European press, on Polish outrage against stories of their complicity in the Holocaust. In the NY Times this weekend appeared a review of Anna Bikont's book on an aspect of that subject --

The Crime and the Silence Confronting the Memory of the Burning of Jews by Their Neighbors in Wartime Jedwabne by Anna Bikont The Crime and the Silence: Confronting the Memory of the Burning of Jews by Their Neighbors in Wartime Jedwabne by Anna Bikont (translated by Alissa Vales)

Here's the review --

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/08/boo...


message 457: by Timothy (new)

Timothy Miyahara (pessimisticoptimist) | 64 comments Manray9 wrote: "Occasionally I see articles, especially in the British and European press, on Polish outrage against stories of their complicity in the Holocaust. In the NY Times this weekend appeared a review of ..."

Thanks for shring, manray9


message 458: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Nov 08, 2015 03:40PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20095 comments Thanks for that link Manray9, it sounds like a book that would make for disturbing but interesting reading. One to keep an eye out for I think!


message 459: by Bevan Lewis (new)

Bevan Lewis | 119 comments That sounds like a powerful book, and the aspect of reportage is valuable to see the contemporary impact, memory and lack of acceptance of responsibility. There is a bit about this in Timothy Snyder's book Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning


message 460: by Manray9 (new)

Manray9 | 4802 comments Bevan wrote: "That sounds like a powerful book, and the aspect of reportage is valuable to see the contemporary impact, memory and lack of acceptance of responsibility. There is a bit about this in Timothy Snyde..."

Bevan: I've read Snyder's book too. Unfortunately there appears to be plenty of guilt to go around in Eastern Europe regarding the treatment of Jews and others.


message 461: by Helen (last edited Nov 18, 2015 08:00AM) (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Hey, all--

I feel weird about posting a book promotion here, but...well, this is a Holocaust thread. My book of linked stories, "In the Land of Armadillos," is being published by Simon and Schuster in February 2016. My parents are both Holocaust survivors; some of the events in my stories were based on their experiences.

From the publisher: "A radiant debut collection of linked stories from a two-time Pushcart Prize nominee, set in a German-occupied town in Poland, where tales of myth and folklore meet the real-life monsters of the Nazi invasion.

1942. With the Nazi Party at the height of its power, the occupying army empties Poland’s towns and cities of their Jewish populations. As neighbor turns on neighbor and survival often demands unthinkable choices, Poland has become a moral quagmire—a place of shifting truths and blinding ambiguities.

Blending folklore and fact, Helen Maryles Shankman shows us the people of Wlodawa, a remote Polish town: we meet a cold-blooded SS officer dedicated to rescuing the creator of his son’s favorite picture book, even as he helps exterminate the artist’s friends and family; a Messiah who appears in a little boy’s bedroom to announce that he is quitting; a young Jewish girl who is hidden by the town’s most outspoken anti-Semite—and his talking dog. And walking among these tales are two unforgettable figures: the enigmatic and silver-tongued Willy Reinhart, Commandant of the forced labor camp who has grand schemes to protect “his” Jews, and Soroka, the Jewish saddlemaker and his family, struggling to survive."


message 462: by Bev (new)

Bev Walkling | 443 comments Sounds interesting Helen. You'll have to remind us again once it is actually available.


message 463: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20095 comments No problems with promoting your book here Helen, like Bev mentioned, keep us posted.

Once your book has been published you can also post details in our author's page:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 464: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Thank you, Bev and Rick! I will keep you posted.
There's actually a GR giveaway going on right now--my publisher is giving away 10 copies of the galley. Here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/sh...


message 465: by Bev (new)

Bev Walkling | 443 comments I went and had a look but it is only open to the US and I am in Canada.


message 466: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Aw. Sorry. :( But thanks for looking!


message 467: by Bev (new)

Bev Walkling | 443 comments No problem. : )
I have added it to my want to read list.


message 468: by Dj (new)

Dj | 2295 comments Helen wrote: "Hey, all--

I feel weird about posting a book promotion here, but...well, this is a Holocaust thread. My book of linked stories, "In the Land of Armadillos," is being published by Simon and Schuste..."


I look forward to it.


message 469: by Dj (new)

Dj | 2295 comments Helen wrote: "Thank you, Bev and Rick! I will keep you posted.
There's actually a GR giveaway going on right now--my publisher is giving away 10 copies of the galley. Here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com..."


Okay, seems to be a popular book to be sought, maybe I will finally get lucky. If not I will stoop to buying it. Honest.


message 470: by Helen (last edited Nov 20, 2015 05:54AM) (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Heh. I've never won anything, either. I keep trying, though.


message 471: by Pamela (new)

Pamela (goodreadscompamela_sampson) | 191 comments Helen, have your parents written their memoirs?


message 472: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Unfortunately not. We wanted them to talk to the Spielberg people, but they wouldn't do it.


message 473: by Lilo (last edited Nov 20, 2015 10:59AM) (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments Helen wrote: "Hey, all--

I feel weird about posting a book promotion here, but...well, this is a Holocaust thread. My book of linked stories, "In the Land of Armadillos," is being published by Simon and Schuste..."


My TBR-list is long enough to reach around the globe (with tons of books already purchased), but I definitely want to read this book of yours. Would you please remind me in a PM when it is available. (My memory is not as good as it used to be.)

Too bad your parents didn't write a memoir or provided you with the raw material to write it for them.

I am glad your parents survived and I hope they are alive and well.

P.S. I won't participate in the Giveaway and will let somebody else get lucky. I'll buy the book once it is available.


message 474: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Hi, Lilo! Oh, they provided PLENTY of raw material. (I should be in therapy.) In writing these stories, I was very much inspired by events in their lives.

Sadly, my mother passed six years ago. Writing is one of the ways I try to honor her memory. She wanted me to be an English teacher.

Very honored that you to want to read my book! I will remind you when it comes out. Have a wonderful weekend!


message 475: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3812 comments Helen wrote: "Writing is one of the ways I try to honor her memory. She wanted me to be an English teacher..."

A nice thing to do Helen.


message 476: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Geevee wrote: A nice thing to do Helen."

Heh...I wonder what she'd think of these stories, particularly the one with the talking dog...it's based on her time hiding out with a lonely farmer, during the last 6 months of the war.


message 477: by Victor (new)

Victor | 30 comments I guess I missed the promo. Congratulations on the book, Helen. I added it to my 'to read list.'

The subject of Polish Holocaust is close to my heart. I'm actually writing a novel set in the Warsaw ghetto. I'm looking forward to reading "In the Land of Armadillos."


message 478: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Jz wrote: "I guess I missed the promo. Congratulations on the book, Helen. I added it to my 'to read list.'

The subject of Polish Holocaust is close to my heart. I'm actually writing a novel set in the Wars..."


Hi, Jz! You didn't miss the giveaway. It goes until December 18th.

I look forward to reading more about your book. Did you have family there?


message 479: by Dimitri (last edited Feb 12, 2016 12:08AM) (new)

Dimitri | 1413 comments Helen wrote: "Geevee wrote: A nice thing to do Helen."

Heh...I wonder what she'd think of these stories, particularly the one with the talking dog...it's based on her time hiding out with a lonely farmer."


I'll read a survivor's story with armadillos and talking dogs.
A promising doorstop:

Final Solution The Fate of the Jews 1933-49 by David Cesarani


message 480: by Dimitri (new)

Dimitri | 1413 comments Lilo wrote: I don't know whether I could stomach this book so soon after reading yet another Holocaust memoir. But I just put it on my TBR-list.
Lilo, a detailed review doesn't exist (yet) but maybe a few toughts can convince you [ n°2 on the list ]
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 481: by Lilo (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments Dimitri wrote: "Lilo wrote: I don't know whether I could stomach this book so soon after reading yet another Holocaust memoir. But I just put it on my TBR-list.
Lilo, a detailed review doesn't exist (yet) but mayb..."


I just added "Final Solution" to my TBR-list and also put it on my Get-From-The-Library list.


message 482: by Lilo (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments Helen wrote: "Hi, Lilo! Oh, they provided PLENTY of raw material. (I should be in therapy.) In writing these stories, I was very much inspired by events in their lives.

Sadly, my mother passed six years ago. Wr..."


I missed your comment of Nov. 20. Just found it now.

Sorry to hear that your mother is no longer alive. I am glad you set her a monument with this book. (I can relate to this. I wrote my early-childhood memoir, which is still not published, to honor my grandmother.)

I just checked out your book and found that there is no paperback edition. Do you plan to have a paperback edition in the near future? If not, I'll buy the hardcover. (I usually prefer paperbacks because of less space-requirement and also because they are lighter to hold when reading in bed.)


message 483: by Michal (new)

Michal | 189 comments Just finished watching Shoah. They mentioned this book at the end anyone read it?

The Warsaw Diary of Adam Czerniakow Prelude to Doom by Adam Czerniakow by Adam Czerniakow


message 484: by Victor (new)

Victor | 30 comments I've read Czerniakow's diaries. What's your question, Michel?


message 485: by Helen (new)

Helen (helenmarylesshankman) | 99 comments Lilo wrote: "Helen wrote: "Hi, Lilo! Oh, they provided PLENTY of raw material. (I should be in therapy.) In writing these stories, I was very much inspired by events in their lives.

Hi, Lilo! I'm so sorry, I just saw this. I sure hope it ends up in a paperback edition. I guess it depends on how well it sells. So kind of you to ask!


message 486: by Lilo (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments Helen wrote: "Lilo wrote: "Helen wrote: "Hi, Lilo! Oh, they provided PLENTY of raw material. (I should be in therapy.) In writing these stories, I was very much inspired by events in their lives.

Hi, Lilo! I'm ..."


Please keep me updated. I am rather swamped with already purchased books, so I can wait a little while. But I, definitely, want to read "In the Land of Armadillos".


message 487: by Bev (new)

Bev Walkling | 443 comments I just finiA Lucky Child: A Memoir of Surviving Auschwitz as a Young Boyshed reading A Lucky Child A Memoir of Surviving Auschwitz as a Young Boy by Thomas Buergenthal by Thomas Buergenthal.

I highly recommend it. You can read my review here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...


message 488: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3812 comments Good review Bev, thanks.


message 489: by Pamela (new)

Pamela (goodreadscompamela_sampson) | 191 comments it's on my reading list. Thanks Bev


message 490: by Bev (new)

Bev Walkling | 443 comments thanks everyone!


message 491: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20095 comments Good review Bev, thanks for sharing.


message 492: by Lilo (last edited May 04, 2016 09:33PM) (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments There is a new book out that should be rather interesting. Here is the link:


DEBUNKING HOLOCAUST DENIAL THEORIES Two Non-Jews Affirm the Historicity of the Nazi Genocide by James Morcan

by James Morcan and Lance Morcan

DEBUNKING HOLOCAUST DENIAL THEORIES: Two Non-Jews Affirm the Historicity of the Nazi Genocide


message 493: by Lee (new)

Lee | 50 comments I'll be looking to pick that up.Holocaust denial is practised by Nazi sympathising scum,I have no time for such pond life.


message 494: by Colin (last edited May 06, 2016 05:22AM) (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 2011 comments As the creator of, and senior Holocaust professor at AMU for 6 years, as well as my research and interviews with SS officers, I find the denialists an amusing if not disturbing collective.


message 495: by Lee (new)

Lee | 50 comments I think the problem is Colin that the internet has opened up denial ideas to a greater audience.It seems people with little or no knowledge of the Nazi regime swallow this garbage through their own ignorance,they see some shoddy youtube videos and think the irrefutable evidence for the holocaust is Jewish atrocity propaganda.

Scratch beneath the surface of the people making these claims and you find a collection of racist cranks and neo nazis seeking to rehabilitate their beloved Third Reich.


message 496: by Lilo (new)

Lilo (liloh-p) | 586 comments Lee wrote: "I'll be looking to pick that up.Holocaust denial is practised by Nazi sympathising scum,I have no time for such pond life."

That's exactly the way I feel. I am so glad that someone wrote a book denouncing Holocaust denial.

I think anyone can afford $ 2.99 for the kindle. I heard that the paperback will be out in about 2 months.


message 497: by Colin (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 2011 comments If anyone reads just a couple of my books, they will see what the German military men had to say about it themselves, including SS Lt. Gen Karl Wolff, Hitler's left hand man (Heydrich was the right)


message 498: by Dj (new)

Dj | 2295 comments Travelin wrote: "Just wondering if this is a fair portrayal of Patton...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/sun..."


In a very real sense the answer is a less than qualified yes. For more depth than the article provides should take a look at D'Este's book on Patton.

Patton: A Genius for War
Patton A Genius for War by Carlo D'Este


message 499: by J. (new)

J. (jguenther) | 139 comments Colin wrote: "This is a true assessment. Having interviewed hundreds of German vets, even high ranking SS men, all agree that the railway used to support the Holocaust was lethal to the German military, as upwar..."

I did some research on this while writing my book and came to the same overall conclusion. Without the Holocaust, Germany could have come a lot closer to winning the war, especially if those resources could have been brought to bear during the Battle of the Bulge.


message 500: by J. (new)

J. (jguenther) | 139 comments I think it's important to trace the Holocaust all the way to its origins. So far, I've come up with 17 hypotheses regarding Hitler's motivation (if that's the proper word) for hating Jews. Most of the reasons are trivial, obviously far-fetched. I came up with #18 while writing my historical novel. I also "solved" the mystery of who killed Geli Raubal--though it doesn't take much effort to come up with a suspect, does it? Unfortunately, Hitler was seen by several dozen people in Nuremberg at the crucial time, and Geli was locked inside her room, with the key in the inside lock. The mystery is not "who?" but "how?"


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