THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
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Books on the Eastern Front of WW2
Very interesting information Manray9 and I don't think I have read of that account before in regards to the Polish First-aid station being destroyed by the Germans. Sixty-three such actions during the Polish campaign is quite a lot eh!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Very interesting information Manray9 and I don't think I have read of that account before in regards to the Polish First-aid station being destroyed by the Germans. Sixty-three such actions during ..."Yes, Snyder's book is well referenced and well footnoted.
Keep us posted, it may be another need to have for my library :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Keep us posted, it may be another need to have for my library :)"In Moscow I worked on occasion with attachés from the Polish embassy. I was taken aback by how much they hated the Russians. If you read Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, you'll begin to understand why.
I think the Poles have had a long hard history with the Russians and the start of their hatred is mired deep in their history - WW2 and what happened after didn't help by any means that's for sure.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think the Poles have had a long hard history with the Russians and the start of their hatred is mired deep in their history - WW2 and what happened after didn't help by any means that's for sure."I know it goes back to before the "Time of Troubles" (Smutnoye Vremya) at the end of the 16th century.
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I think the Poles have had a long hard history with the Russians and the start of their hatred is mired deep in their history - WW2 and what happened after didn't help by any means that's for sure."I said they hated the Russians. Hated and feared is a more accurate description.
Good point Manray9!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Good point Manray9!"Unfortunately, the Poles cozied up to the Americans because they believe we'll protect them from the Russians. I wouldn't count on it.
Manray9 wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Good point Manray9!"Unfortunately, the Poles cozied up to the Americans because they believe we'll protect them from the Russians. I wouldn't count on it."
The Poles should be careful about trusting anyone...didn't work out well at the start or the end of WWII. They need to be like the Israelis, ready to do whatever it takes to survive.
You do have to feel for the Poles, they have been screwed over that many times by supposed allies eh!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You do have to feel for the Poles, they have been screwed over that many times by supposed allies eh!"I wouldn't say screwed over, but they've had to rely on allies who weren't positioned to help them. They're caught between the Germans and the Russians.
Screwed over by geography! a flat land between east and west.
From:
Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy Snyder.Regarding German treatment of Soviet POWs:
It was the Wehrmacht that established and ran the first network of camps, in Hitler's Europe, where people died in the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands, and finally in the millions...In German prisoner-of-war camps for Red Army soldiers, the death rate over the course of the war was 57.5 per cent...In German prisoner-of-war camps for soldiers of the western Allies, the death rate was less than five per cent. As many Soviet prisoners of war died on a single given day in autumn 1941 as did British and American prisoners of war over the course of the entire Second World War.
Snyder went on:
The Germans shot, on a conservative estimate, half a million Soviet prisoners of war. By way of starvation or mistreatment during transit, they killed about 2.6 million more. All in all, perhaps 3.1 million Soviet prisoners of war were killed.
I thought it was a must, but very difficult read. His discritptions of what Stalin did to the Kulaks/Ukraine killed my appatite for a couple of days.
happy wrote: "I thought it was a must, but very difficult read. His discritptions of what Stalin did to the Kulaks/Ukraine killed my appatite for a couple of days."The Soviet forced collectivisation of agriculture and the "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" were, arguably, the most monstrous crimes of a monstrous century.
Heavy reading by the sounds of it, but it also sounds like a book that must be read!
Here's another interesting excerpt from Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin with a touch of irony:By the end of the war, some eight million foreigners from the East, most of them Slavs, were working in the Reich. It was a rather perverse result, even by the standards of Nazi racism: German men went abroad and killed millions of "subhumans," only to import millions of other "subhumans" to do the work in Germany that the German men would have been doing themselves -- had they not been abroad killing "subhumans." The net effect, setting aside the mass killing abroad, was that Germany became more of a Slavic land than it had ever been in history.
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Manray9 wrote: "Here's another interesting excerpt from Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin with a touch of irony:By the end of the war, some eight million foreigners from the East, most ..."
Ironic and well written. I look forward to your review on this one.
Manray9 wrote: "From my current book: Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy SnyderOften apologists ascribe German atrocities of ..."
I read somewhere that there was a conspiracy (not in the wild off the wall sense) amongst the Western Allies to allow the Germans to pass off the accounts that the German Army wasn't involved in atrocities to allow a quicker return of normal relations between the Western Powers and Germany.
Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "From my current book: Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy SnyderOften apologists ascribe Germa..."
I don't know about that, but I wouldn't be surprised if some incidents were "overlooked." As far as "conspiracy" is concerned, I would have to see studies and reports from the first-hand sources or by reputable scholars to buy it.
Manray9 wrote: "Dj wrote: "Manray9 wrote: "From my current book: Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy SnyderOften apologists as..."
At the time it would have been called a Gentlemans agreement. Mostly it was just to look the other way while the Germans pointed the finger at the SS and said basically it was all them.
Saw this interesting article in the Toronto Globe and Mail, not directly WWII reflated, but there are still connections...http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/w...
Scary reading, thanks for posting the link Mikey.B.
Mikey B. wrote: "Saw this interesting article in the Toronto Globe and Mail, not directly WWII reflated, but there are still connections...http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/w......"
The borders in Eastern Europe have been fluid for centuries. Narva was taken from Sweden by the Russians in the Great Northern War (1700-24) between Peter I and Charles XII. It remained part of the Russian empire until 1918. The Soviets retook it in 1940, lost it to Hitler, and then took it again. Estonia was Danish, Swedish and Russian far far longer than it's been independent.
I just finished reading Tiger Tracks by Faust. I've seen some questions regarding where (and if) there are boundaries within the memoir between fiction and non-fiction - what are people's thoughts on that? Are there any books on WWII tank combat that people recommend?
Years ago I read "While still we live." The title came from a saying of the Polish lancers meaning that Poland has not perished as long as we are still alive. It was about the history of the struggles and bravery of the Poles. When I was a kid there were a lot of Polish jokes, but after reading it I never told a polish joke. That was long before it became not "politically correct."
Brian, not sure what you mean. I read The War Magician and thought it was terrific. Then I read an online review that claimed the author, Jasper Maskelyne, made up or exaggerated everything, but that he seemed to really believe it was true.
Howard wrote: "Brian, not sure what you mean. I read The War Magician and thought it was terrific. Then I read an online review that claimed the author, Jasper Maskelyne, made up or exaggerated everything, but th..."I saw some comments on the Amazon reviews questioning the authenticity of the memoir, or at least parts of it. It was a pretty riveting account, and just was curious to see what other people thought.
Brian wrote: "I just finished reading Tiger Tracks by Faust. I've seen some questions regarding where (and if) there are boundaries within the memoir between fiction and non-fiction - what are people's thoughts..."I haven't read the book in question Brian but here is a highly recommended title (which I have to read soon myself) that may interest you:
by Otto Carius
In response to comment 427 Brian, "The German Army 1933-1945" covers a lot of ground. Some points about tank warfare were very interesting. First, Germany didn't have all the answers, they just jumped on it first and did better in the beginning. They had read Liddell Hart, Hobart, etc. and put it into effect. The tanks they used vs the French did not have guns or armor as good, but they were mobile and every tank had a radio. There were reports of French armor commanders being killed as they ran from tank to tank in battle.Interestingly, Guderian started as a signals officer.
There was a constant argument between the high command who saw combined arms units and warfare as simply the new best way to exercise the schlact und kessel strategy and the Hart-like thinkers who expounded on the penetration and disruption effects. You can see where the Germans got sucked into thinking that if they took France in two bites, Russia might just be a few more "bites."
Howard wrote: "In response to comment 427 Brian, "The German Army 1933-1945" covers a lot of ground. Some points about tank warfare were very interesting. First, Germany didn't have all the answers, they just jum..."Thats some goood info.
Read "Tigers in the Mud", by the late great Otto Carius on German tanks firsthand.
The author of Order in Chaos talks about one of his defensive battles in late 1942 - early 1943:"From 25 December to 3 January, 396 enemy tanks were destroyed in the corps area of operations. By 18 January the count increased to 530 tanks and our main adversary, the Third Guards Army, was out of tanks .... The Soviet prisoners left a deep impression on us. The majority seemed to be only eleven to seventeen years old, but there were also a lot of Asians, and very old men. As one of my divisions radioed in after an action, 'Another children's crusade done with'. Another called it 'The Bethlehem Murder of the Innocents'."
by Hermann Balck
In
Finland at War 1939-45 by Philip JowettI came across the story of Simo Häyhä of the Finnish 34th Infantry. He was a reservist with a great reputation as a rifleman. Using a Finnish-made Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm rifle with iron sights (no scope!), he made 505 kills in 100 days against the Soviets during the Winter War. On 6 March 1940, Häyhä was struck in the face by a Soviet explosive bullet but survived. Here's his photo:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...
Great information Manray9, one of my favourite rifles that I still have left in my collection is a Russian Mosin-Nagant rifle. Exceptional shooting skills shown by Simo Häyhä, average 5 kills a day!
Great shooting. My favorite historical example of skilled marksmanship follows:Károly Takács (Hungarian name order Takács Károly) (21 January 1910 – 5 January 1976)[1][2][3] was the first shooter to win two Olympic gold medals in the 25 metre rapid fire pistol event, both with his left hand after his right hand was seriously injured.
I had heard he won with his right and then his left so I looked it up. Still impressive.
Another great story, thanks for sharing the details Howard.
This account is covers a fairly tall order for an officer during a breakthrough by Russian forces during the fighting in Austria towards the end of the war:... And the Russian tank corps that was moving towards Graz? I had nothing left. Because of the tangled mess that the IV SS Panzer Corps and the Hungarians caused, we had no ability to extract anybody from the path of the human maelstrom. But the longer the war lasted the more I came to understand that one man often can be worth more than one thousand. I pulled aside Lieutenant Colonel Wolff, a Panzer officer on my staff. I explained the situation to him and told him, "Take a Kubel with two of three men, fill it with Panzerfausts, and drive toward the Russian tank corps and stop them. How? I cannot tell you. Maybe it would be enough to set up a sign 'No thoroughfare for Russian tanks!'"
In the end Lieutenant Colonel Wolff along with some patients from a German field hospital managed to knock out six Russian tanks and halt their forward movement long enough until General Balck could find additional forces to throw in front of the Russian advance.
by Hermann Balck
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This account is covers a fairly tall order for an officer during a breakthrough by Russian forces during the fighting in Austria towards the end of the war:... And the Russian tank corps that wa..."
A manly endeavor!
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This account is covers a fairly tall order for an officer during a breakthrough by Russian forces during the fighting in Austria towards the end of the war:... And the Russian tank corps that wa..."
great story :)
In his book Stuka Pilot, Hans Rudel reports having stopped a Russian tank attack where there were no German soldiers on the ground due to a big gap in the lines. The dive bomber attack was so intense that the Russian tanks retreated.
One of my all time favourite books Howard :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Take a Kubel with two of three men, fill it with Panzerfausts, and drive toward the Russian tank corps and stop them. How? I cannot tell you. Maybe it would be enough to set up a sign 'No thoroughfare for Russian tanks!'" "In Hell's Gate (Cherkassy pocket) the Russians would
often send a dozen tanks through a gap in the German
lines to do havoc behind the lines. When spotted
the Germans would send 2 tanks and a platoon to
take care of it. It was a standard procedure/ratio.
There was a true and humorous incident after Italy had attacked Greece from Albania and were driven back so far that a sign appeared at the Italian/French border warning: "Attention Greek Soldiers! Stop here. This is French territory."'
I interviewed a few veterans of Cherkassy, especially Leon Degrelle. Great battle, horrific.
Wikipedia has some interesting data on Leon Degrelle.How did you find him to be when you interviewed him and when was that interview? Thanks.
Howard wrote: "Wikipedia has some interesting data on Leon Degrelle.How did you find him to be when you interviewed him and when was that interview? Thanks."
We never got to execute our most important collaborator , safely unextraditable in Spain after his naturalisation in '54 :(
Degrelle was highly intelligent, fervently anti-communist, and a self promoter. Despite his shortcomings, he was an excellent soldier. He put his Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves around my neck, and said "Imagine that bouncing up and down, hitting your chin when you had to leave at a fast pace." My abridged interview with him was published in Military History back in 2009. FYI, his neighbors were Sean and Margarite Connery, yes, "Bond, James Bond," and U-boat ace Otto Kretschmer, also an interview.
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
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Often apologists ascribe German atrocities of WW II to the SS or Einsatzgruppen. Snyder points out the culpability of the Wehrmacht in atrocities in Poland during the short campaign there in 1939. German regular soldiers were involved in numerous incidents of willful murder of Polish POWs. Snyder wrote: