THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

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CAMPAIGNS & BATTLES > Books on the Eastern Front of WW2

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message 151: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments I finished The 900 Days The Siege Of Leningrad by Harrison E. Salisbury this week and want to thank those of you who recommended this for me. This is my 2nd read on the Eastern front but my first on Leningrad. While the book was quite lengthy, there was a lot to be told about the days leading up to the siege and the 900 days that followed. It was very heartbreaking to read in many places as the conditions that the residents of Leningrad endured during that time were horrendous. Overall, a very thorough account of the generals who led the charge to finally break the blockade and the challenges they faced with the political infighting and whims of Stalin.
I would like to learn more about battle for Moscow/Operation Typhoon front if anyone can make some recommendations.


message 152: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3811 comments Christie these two are due out soon:

Operation Typhoon Hitler's March on Moscow October 1941 by David Stahel by David Stahel

The Viazma Catastrophe, 1941 The Red Army's Disastrous Stand against Operation Typhoon by Lev Lopukhovsky by Lev Lopukhovsky

and I have read this:
Moscow 1941; A City And Its People At War by Rodric Braithwaite by Rodric Braithwaite

and have this on my TBR:
The Greatest Battle The Battle For Moscow 1941 - 42 by Andrew Nagorski by Andrew Nagorski


message 153: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments Thank you Geevee! I will add these to my wishlist :)


message 154: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments Geevee, when I looked up "Moscow 1941" on Amazon, this book that came out in October came up as well The Drive on Moscow, 1941 by Niklas Zetterling & Anders Frankson . It only has 2 reviews but both gave it a 5 star rating.


message 155: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Hi Christie,

You may enjoy these two books which have some great first-hand accounts from the participants throughout the book/s:

The Retreat Hitler's First Defeat by Michael Jones and Leningrad State of Siege by Michael Jones by Michael Jones

The author also has this new release covering the Eastern Front:

Total War From Stalingrad to Berlin by Michael Jones by Michael Jones


message 156: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Hi Christie,

You may enjoy these two books which have some great first-hand accounts from the participants throughout the book/s:



Hi Rick,
I forgot about "The Retreat" that had been mentioned before and "Total War" sounds like a great one to help me with knowledge overall of the Eastern front. I'm moving it near the top of my wishlist. Thank you!

Geevee, I read The Greatest Battle Stalin, Hitler, and the Desperate Struggle for Moscow That Changed the Course of World War II by Andrew Nagorski over the summer and it was good, but focused more on the behind the scenes political happenings than on the battlefield itself. It was interesting to find out a lot of the recently declassified information that has been covered by the author.



message 157: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Let me know if you get a copy of Total War as I have not read my copy yet, maybe we could do a buddy read down the track.


message 158: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Let me know if you get a copy of Total War as I have not read my copy yet, maybe we could do a buddy read down the track."

That would be awesome Rick. I am getting an Amazon gift card for Christmas so guess what I will be doing? :)


message 159: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3811 comments Without gatecrashing I'd be interested too.


message 160: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Dec 22, 2012 04:46PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments You'd be most welcome Geevee! When would suit you both? Maybe Mid January so everyone can settle into the new year or in February?

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...


message 161: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "You'd be most welcome Geevee! When would suit you both? Maybe Mid January so everyone can settle into the new year or in February?

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1..."


Glad to have you Geevee! I'm good with mid January. Just let me know. I'm going to order my copy from Amazon this coming week.


message 162: by happy (new)

happy (happyone) | 2281 comments I'll second (third) The Retreat I thought it was both well researched and well written. I think Jones is much more reader friendly than Glantz


message 163: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments You quite right there Happy, Jones is a much easier author to read and his use of first-hand accounts really gets you into the story. Hard to beat Glantz's level of research but his books can be a bit dry, depends on what your looking for I suppose.


message 164: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (new)

Geevee | 3811 comments Mid-January/February is good for me folks.

Happy and Rick I agree on Glantz his research, and attention to formation detail especially, is probably unsurpassed (perhaps Erickson in earlier years?) but for me it is hard work in anything other than small chunks.


message 165: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments I found this account from my book on Manstein encapsulates one of the major reasons why Germany could never prevail over Russia on the Eastern Front:

“By 27 August, Operation RUMIANTSEV had petered out and Manstein was able to establish a ‘fairly continuous front from Kharkov to Sumy’. Fourth Panzer and Eighth Armies remained intact, licking their wounds, proud that they had halted the Soviet offensive. Although the Voronezh and Steppe Fronts had together lost a quarter of a million men in the Belgorod-Kharkov operation, the Red Army could afford to accept such staggering losses of attrition whilst the Ostheer could not. Manstein reported to OKH on 20/21 August that his thirty-eight infantry and fourteen armoured divisions had been reduced in fighting power to the equivalent of eighteen and six respectively. For a casualty total of 133,000 men, he had only received 33,000 replacements that month.”


For further information on Operation Rumiantsev/Rumyantsev:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgorod...

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/artic...

Manstein Hitler's Greatest General by Mungo Melvin by Mungo Melvin


message 166: by Kris (new)

Kris (kvolk) 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I found this account from my book on Manstein encapsulates one of the major reasons why Germany could never prevail over Russia on the Eastern Front:

“By 27 August, Operation RUMIANTSEV had petere..."


Totally agree with you Aussie Rick...then add the material advantages the Soviets have as the war goes on and it is not possible for the germans to even have a chance at any kind of victory....


message 167: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments I am sure that this new book (due for release - May 2013) will interest a few group members, I've already pre-ordered my copy.

The Stalingrad Cauldron Inside the Encirclement and Destruction of the 6th Army by Frank Ellis by Frank Ellis
Description:
The encirclement of the German 6th Army at Stalingrad in mid-November 1942 and its final collapse in February 1943 was a signature defeat for Hitler, as more than 100,000 of his soldiers were marched off into captivity. Frank Ellis tackles this oft-told tale from the unique perspective of the German officers and men trapped inside the Red Army’s ever-closing ring of forces. This approach makes palpable the growing desperation of an army that began its campaign confident of victory but that long before the end could see how hopeless their situation had become.

Highlighting these pages are three previously unpublished German army division accounts, translated here for the first time by Ellis. Each of these translations follows the combat experiences of a specific division—the 76th Infantry, the 94th Infantry, and the 16th Panzer—and take readers into the cauldron (or Kessel) that was Stalingrad. Together they provide a ground-level view of the horrific fighting and yield insights into everything from tactics and weapons to internal disputes, the debilitating effects of extreme cold and hunger, and the Germans’ astonishing
sense of duty and the abilities of their junior leaders.

Along with these first-hand accounts, Ellis himself takes a new and closer look at a number of fascinating but somewhat neglected or misunderstood aspects of the Stalingrad cauldron including sniping, desertion, spying, and the fate of German prisoners. His coverage of sniping is especially notable for new insights concerning the duel that allegedly took place between Soviet sniper Vasilii Zaitsev and a German sniper, Major Konings, a story told in the film Enemy at the Gates (2001). Ellis also includes an incisive reading of Oberst Arthur Boje’s published account of his capture, interrogation, and conviction for war crimes, and explores the theme of reconciliation in the works of two Stalingrad veterans, Kurt Reuber and Vasilii Grossman.

Rich in anecdotal detail and revealing moments, Ellis’s historical mosaic showcases an army that managed to display a vital resilience and professionalism in the face of inevitable defeat brought on by its leaders. It makes for compelling reading for anyone interested in one of the Eastern Front’s monumental battles.

Reviews:
"Characterized by sound scholarship, clarity, and acute attention to detail, Ellis’s work adds substantially to our understanding of the Battle of Stalingrad and the travails of the troops who fought, suffered, and often perished in the fighting.” - David M. Glantz, (author of The Stalingrad Trilogy)

“Ellis has uncovered a number of previously unavailable or neglected sources that offer valuable insight into the daily struggles for survival in the Stalingrad cauldron.” - Stephen G. Fritz, (author of Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East)

“A fascinating and essential volume for all students of the Eastern Front.” - Robert M. Citino, (author of The Wehrmacht Retreats: Fighting a Losing War, 1943)

Posted on the New Release thread as well.


message 168: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Jan 04, 2013 02:43PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Here are a few more excellent looking new releases covering the Eastern Front during WW2 that are due out in the next few months:


Mussolini's Death March Eyewitness Accounts of Italian Soldiers on the Eastern Front by Nuto Revelli by Nuto Revelli

Armor and Blood The Battle of Kursk, July 1943 by Dennis Showalter by Dennis Showalter

The Damned and the Dead The Eastern Front Through the Eyes of Soviet and Russian Novelists by Frank Ellis by Frank Ellis


message 169: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments This book was published late last year (2012) and may be of interest to some members here. I have not been able to find a book cover yet.

The Death of East Prussia War and Revenge in Germany's Easternmost Province by Peter B. Clark (no cover) The Death of East Prussia: War and Revenge in Germany's Easternmost Province by Peter B. Clark
Description:
The Death of East Prussia describes the immense collateral damage inflicted on East Prussia resulting from Hitler's war of annihilation in Poland and the Soviet Union. The Red Army sought revenge when it invaded the province in the winter of 1945. Thousands of Germans tried to flee rampaging Soviet soldiers who raped, assaulted, murdered and pillaged with abandon. A wealth of eyewitness testimony provides gripping, personal narratives of the indomitable will of the East Prussians to survive under horrific conditions. The end came when the wartime Allies divided East Prussia between Russia and Poland and approved the expulsion of all East Prussians. Now outcasts in their own homeland, many succumbed to starvation and disease as virtual slave laborers for their new masters, and the survivors were expelled in the late 1940s. This ethnic cleansing of East Prussia was the price paid for Nazi Germany's own ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe. Complementing this tale of human suffering is an historical analysis showing that geography, revenge and political calculation can explain the extinction of East Prussia.

Reviews:
"I am so filled with admiration for your empathy and your exemplary ability to summarize the essentials.... I was in tears when I read your description of the fates of individuals. You have the gift to describe these so precisely that I re-lived vividly what I experienced myself as an eyewitness. I would like to tell you...that I regard your book as the most important--because it is the most realistic--documentation yet to appear of the indescribable downfall of East Prussia and Konigsberg that has been written." - Michael Wieck, (author of A Childhood under Hitler and Stalin: Memoirs of a "Certified Jew")

"I cannot think of anything written on the terrible moment in history more powerful than what you have written. I'm still thinking about why it is so gut wrenching yet incredibly compelling. This is New Yorker quality writing you have done....Your writing is sparse, each word counts, there aren't any frills--which gives a haunting starkness to the terrifying events your witnesses describe." - Charles McCain, (author of An Honorable German)


message 170: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "This book was published late last year (2012) and may be of interest to some members here. I have not been able to find a book cover yet.

[bookcover:The Death of East Prussia: War and Revenge in G..."


AR, it sounds excellent. Added to the wishlist. Amazon had a release date of November 2012 but it still says available for pre-order. I guess the release date has changed yet it shows no new date :(


message 171: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Yeah, I think the publishing date has been pushed back a bit, will have to wait and see :)


message 172: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Jan 24, 2013 02:34PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments For those who have an interest in German Panzer operations on the Eastern Front:


Panzer Wedge The 3rd Panzer Division's Drive on Moscow, 1941 by Fritz Lucke and Panzer Wedge Vol. 2 The German 3rd Panzer Division and Barbarossa's Failure at the Gates of Moscow by Fritz Lucke by Fritz Lucke

And also this title:

Decision in the Ukraine German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943 by George M. Nipe Jr by George M. Nipe Jr
Description:
Myth-busting account of the summer of 1943 on the Eastern Front, one of World War II's turning points Includes the Battle of Kursk Special focus on the notorious 3rd SS Panzer Division Totenkopf.


message 173: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments Thanks AR. Added all to my wishlist. Vol 1 of "Panzer Wedge" has a free sample for Kindle. :)


message 174: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Nice, nothing better than a freebie!


message 175: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Damn, just stumbled across this book which is due out in a few months. I dare say I will have to order a copy:

Hitler's Wave-Breaking Concept An Analysis of the German End-Game in the Baltic, 194445 by Henrik O. Lunde by Henrik O. Lunde
Description:
Among the many controversies of World War II, prominent is the debate over Germany's strategy in the north of the Soviet Union, as the tide of war turned, and gigantic Russian armies began to close in on Berlin. In this long-awaited work, Henrik Lunde-former U.S. Special Forces officer and author of renowned previous works on the campaigns in Norway and Finland-turns his sights to the withdrawal of Army Group North.Providing cool-headed analysis to the problem, the author first acknowledges that Hitler-often accused of holding onto ground for the sake of it-had valid reasons in this instance to maintain control of the Baltic coast. Without it, his supply of iron ore from Sweden would have been cut off, German naval (U-boat) bases would have been compromised, and an entire simpatico area of Europe-including East Prussia-would have been forsaken. On the other hand, Germany's maintaining control of the Baltic would have meant convenient supply for forces on the coast-or evacuation if necessary-and perhaps most important, remaining German defensive pockets behind the Soviets' main drive to Europe would tie down disproportionate offensive forces. Stalwart German forces remaining on the coast and on their flank could break the Soviet tidal wave.However, unlike during today's military planning, the German high command, in a situation that changed by the month, had to make quick decisions and gamble, with the fate of hundreds of thousands of troops and the entire nation at stake on quickly decided throws of their dice.As Henrik Lunde carefully details in this work, Hitler guessed wrong. By leaving four entire battle-hardened armies in isolation along the Baltic, the Soviets pulling up to the Oder River encountered weaker opposition than they had a right to expect. Having economic (or aid) resources of their own, they cared little for Hitler's own supply line and instead simply lunged at his center of power: Berlin. Once that was taken the remaining German pockets could be wiped out. The Germans deprived themselves of many of their strongest forces when they most needed them, and the climactic battle for their capital took place. In this book, both combats and strategy are described in the final stages of the fighting in the Northern Theater, with Lunde's even-handed analysis of the campaign a reward to every student of World War II.

Also listed in the New Books thread


message 176: by Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces (new)

Mike | 3620 comments That one looks good AR, added TBR.


message 177: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Same :)


message 178: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (last edited Feb 09, 2013 01:22PM) (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments I picked up a second hand copy of; The Last Six Months: Russia's Final Battles with Hitler's Armies in World War II by General S. M. Shtemenko, it may make for some interesting reading!


The Last Six Months Russia's Final Battles with Hitler's Armies in World War II by General S. M. Shtemenko by General S. M. Shtemenko


message 179: by Christie (new)

Christie | 336 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I picked up a second hand copy of; The Last Six Months: Russia's Final Battles with Hitler's Armies in World War II by General S. M. Shtemenko, it may make for some interesting reading!


[bookcove..."


Added to wishlist!


message 180: by Mike, Assisting Moderator US Forces (new)

Mike | 3620 comments 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I picked up a second hand copy of; The Last Six Months: Russia's Final Battles with Hitler's Armies in World War II by General S. M. Shtemenko, it may make for some interesting reading!..."

We await your comments on the book. You don't have all that many in front of it, do you?


message 181: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Nah, not really, give me a year or two to report back to you Mike :)


message 182: by Singleton (new)

Singleton Mosby | 96 comments That sounds like a most interesting book Rick. Added it to my wishlist as well.


message 183: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments This new book is due out in a few months and may interest a few members here:


Stalin's Falcons Resurgent Soviet Air Power and the Battle of Kursk 1943 by Mark A. O'Neill by Mark A. O'Neill
Description:
This book describes the impact of Soviet air power on the battles in and around the Kursk bulge during the summer and fall of 1943. Soviet fighter, ground-attack and bomber pilots contributed dramatically to the success of both the defensive and offensive phases of the Battle of Kursk and the subsequent drive to the Dnepr. After a slow start against initial Luftwaffe attacks on July 5th, the 16th, 2nd and 17th Air Armies adjusted battlefield tactics to resist German bombers as well as provide increasingly effective support to Soviet infantry and armor units. The summer of 1943 saw the Red Air Force complete its return from near annihilation during the first months of Operation Barbarossa. While Soviet pilots were still dramatically short on training and other resources, they would increase in combat effectiveness for the rest of the Great Patriotic War, while their opponents would continue to lose combat effectiveness.

Posted in the New Release thread as well.


message 184: by Stephen (new)

Stephen | 24 comments Lots of great suggestions here, the eastern front is my most read area of the war, as it basically decided the whole thing. Would highly recommend Alan Clark's Barbarossa for a single text covering all the main events . Will be digging into some of the books covering certain battles mentioned above.


message 185: by Colin (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 2011 comments Look at Leon degrelle's Campaign in Russia, among a few he wrote. Degrelle was a great interview.


message 186: by Philippe (new)

Philippe | 9 comments Blood Red Snow: The Memoirs of a German Soldier on the Eastern Front

Just finished this book. Pretty good diary of a infantry soldier on the Eastern front.


message 187: by Stephen (new)

Stephen | 24 comments Thanks guys, blood red snow was already on my to get list, glad you liked it and I am aware of Degrelle, but it seems his work is pretty expensive.


message 188: by Philippe (new)

Philippe | 9 comments Stephen wrote: "Thanks guys, blood red snow was already on my to get list, glad you liked it and I am aware of Degrelle, but it seems his work is pretty expensive."

He is also extremely controversial as he was the head of the Belgian french speaking National Socialist party called Rexism. He joined the Wehrmacht and was a commander in the 28th SS Volunteer Grenadier Division Wallonien.
He spend the rest of his life banned in Spain.


message 189: by Stephen (new)

Stephen | 24 comments Indeed , he seems to be a very 'colourful' character.


message 190: by Tytti (new)

Tytti | 140 comments This book hasn't been mentioned yet, I believe: Black Edelweiss A Memoir of Combat and Conscience by a Soldier of the Waffen-SS by Johann Voss by Johann Voss

Of course I'm interested in it because he served part of the war in Finland and Karelia and fought in the Lapland War. My great-uncle and uncle probably served roughly in the same area, though neither were at the front. Great-uncle was actually in the long-range reconnaissance unit, he is one of the soldiers on the cover of this book:
Vihollisen selustassa. Päämajan tiedustelu Neuvosto-Karjalassa 1939-1944 by Eero Elfvengren
(Behind enemy lines: Headquarters' intelligence missions in Soviet Karelia in 1939-1944)


message 191: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments All good books just mentioned here, from Barbarossa by Alan Clark, Blood Red Snow, Leon Degrelle's Campaign in Russia and Black Edelweiss (I have a copy signed by the author). One book that I always recommend on the Eastern Front is:

In Deadly Combat A German Soldier's Memoir of the Eastern Front (Modern War Studies (Paper) by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann


message 192: by Dachokie (last edited Mar 04, 2013 12:52PM) (new)

Dachokie | 20 comments Tytti wrote: "This book hasn't been mentioned yet, I believe: Black Edelweiss A Memoir of Combat and Conscience by a Soldier of the Waffen-SS by Johann Voss by Johann Voss"

I read this several years ago ... I felt it was sincerely written and indicative that not all Waffen SS soldiers were mindless monsters that committed atrocities. A little slow in the beginning (not as active a front), but picked up quite a bit when former allies (Finns) became enemies and the eventual combat with Americans.


message 193: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments Thanks for the insight into the book Dachokie, I will try and get around to reading it soon, I hope!


message 194: by Tytti (new)

Tytti | 140 comments Dachokie wrote: "I felt it was sincerely written and indicative that not all Waffen SS soldiers were mindless monsters that committed atrocities. A little slow in the beginning (no as active a front), but picked up quite a bit when former allies (Finns) became enemies and the eventual combat with Americans. "

Yeah, those 2.5 years of trench warfare were pretty quiet most of the time, Finnish soldiers even studied and did all kinds of handicrafts at the front.

The Lapland war on the other hand was just one of those weird things because neither side wanted it. In fact it started as a "shadow war" with Germans retreating and Finns advancing after silent agreements were made. The problem was that the Soviet Union didn't think it was enough and demanded real war and threatened Finland with occupation. I believe Finns finally attacked only some 15 minutes before the deadline. Finland also had to demobilize the army at the same time so most of the soldiers were young, inexperienced conscripts.

I have known that not all Waffen-SS soldiers were quilty of atrocities. There were also Finnish Waffen-SS volunteers aka "Pawn battalion" and their involvements have been researched quite well.


message 195: by Nick (last edited Mar 05, 2013 10:09AM) (new)

Nick | 97 comments I felt it was sincerely written and indicative that not all Waffen SS soldiers were mindless monsters that committed atrocities.

Doubtless there two or three who somehow managed to avoid it but then there are always a few who manage to miss the party.

According to an article in the NY Times (link below), there were some some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945. In other words, you couldn't swing a dead cat in Europe after 1933 without contacting into a forced labor camp.

In essence, this pretty much puts paid to the "I didn't know" defense; anyone who didn't know was delusional. Given the complicity of even the senior Wehrmacht commanders in Hitler's extermination orders, it's a pretty big stretch to think that the Waffen SS were innocent because they were front-line soldiers. If you really buy that, I've got some bridges I'll cheerfully sell you (although I do only accept cash)

As I've gotten older, I've come to wonder more and more about the fascination folks have for these thugs. It's become ever-more evident that what is being published is either a salve for some very wounded consciences (doubtful) or more of the same crapola: Tell a lie enough and it soon becomes the truth.

Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sun...


message 196: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments I saw that article Nick, a very interesting story, thanks for posting it and also thanks for your comments. I must confess to having a fascination for the Waffen SS although I am very conscious of never allow my interest in their fighting qualities outweigh the crimes committed by their formations.


message 197: by Geevee, Assisting Moderator British & Commonwealth Forces (last edited Mar 05, 2013 12:46PM) (new)

Geevee | 3811 comments It is I suspect a never ending discussion. For me its complex to the extreme (like the regime) in that many of the Waffen SS were children and products of post-WWI Germany and from 1933 a Nazi government and society that produced professional and skilled political soldiers. This then influenced and fenced them in to a movement and finally a war machine that, especially in the East, killed with vigour and vehemence and no mercy. For most then it was probably right for Germany and therefore right for them. Some were probably very uncomfortable and even disagreed with policies and local unit decisions to murder, but how (and who?) would say no when comrades follow orders and the regime that has shaped you since childhood expects you to do your duty.


message 198: by Dachokie (new)

Dachokie | 20 comments Nick wrote: it's a pretty big stretch to think that the Waffen SS were innocent because they were front-line soldiers. If you really buy that ..."

"innocent" ... that's your word, not mine ... and my comment was about one soldier/author, not his platoon, company or division. Other than interpreting the man's own written words, neither you nor I know anything more about his personal constitution or conduct during the war. But, it really is easier and convenient if we simply assume every German in uniform was a mass murderer (even though an accurate number will never be known ... )

As I've gotten older, I've discovered that my 30+ years of studying World War II has resulted in more questions than answers as new information results in a healthy supply of new books each month (many of them refuting the work of other "experts") ... and in your case, a new NYT article. I can only speak for myself when I say the fascination with the Eastern Front is that it is that it is relatively ignored by the West ... and steeped in myth.

Unfortunately, truth can be branded a lie if it inconveniences enough people.


message 199: by Colin (last edited Mar 05, 2013 01:00PM) (new)

Colin Heaton (colin1962) | 2011 comments FYI, several senior SS officers, even generals, such as Bittrich, Steiner, Hausser et al, all told Himmler that they would not allow their men to participate in any unwarranted killings, unless the criteria was met by the Geneva Convention of 1929. FYI, Bittrich opnely call Himmler "an idiot" for even thinking such a plan was a great idea. Steiner told his men that he would court martial nay man who killed a civilian, and there are plenty more examples. I am writing a book now about all of this.


message 200: by 'Aussie Rick', Moderator (new)

'Aussie Rick' (aussierick) | 20039 comments All very good points raised here by folks and this is an area of history that continues to fascinate people, be it good or bad, although I tend to agree with Geevee.


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