THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion
CAMPAIGNS & BATTLES
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Books on the Eastern Front of WW2
Dimitri wrote: "Now, I know these translations from Werner Haupt's output have been mentioned in other topics, but we never got the word back whether they're any good, especially now that we're 20 years later - al..."Did you buy these books Dimitri?
Hmm, what is the group's overall opinion of the books written by David M. Glantz that deals with the Eastern Front?
Glantz does his research and that shows in his books. I've read his book on Kursk which was pretty good and the first two volumes of his Stalingrad trilogy (4 books). The biggest issue with Glantz is the standard of the maps used in his books, usually they aren't that great and are hard to find locations on, secondly his books are very dry to read, they can be a bit of a hard slog to get through. I've usually broken my reading up by reading from a different book at the end of each Glantz chapter.
It sounds as if you have mastered a strategy to get through "dense" books!!
It works for me Haaze :)The maps I bitch about are usually contemporary maps and they sometimes aren't the best to use.
Aussie Rick wrote: Did you buy these books [by Werner Haupt]
No, AR, I'm checking whether I should be on the lookout for'em.
I remember that years ago everyone reckoned you should have copies of the books on the Army Groups but I never committed to buying a set. I think they have received mixed reviews as do most Schiffer titles.
Haaze wrote: "Hmm, what is the group's overall opinion of the books written by David M. Glantz that deals with the Eastern Front?"I agree with AR, the maps are woefully hard to read, other than that, it's rich in detail in op orders, memo's and unit organizations. Good stuff.
I'm a big fan of the Glantz books. They can be dry but you'll be hard pressed to find better or more detailed information. AR has the right idea. You need to work in some other books while you read his for the change of pace.
I'm currently reading; "Vitebsk: The Fight and Destruction of Third Panzer Army" and the author mentioned the exploits of Lieutenant Albert Ernst of the 1st Company of the 519 Heavy Panzerjager Battalion (Hornets) who destroyed 14 Russian tanks in one engagement.Lieutenant Albert Ernst:
http://forum.tanktastic.org/index.php...
Hornet:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerja...
Amazing he's still alive, from the battle, and now age wise. 'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I'm currently reading; "Vitebsk: The Fight and Destruction of Third Panzer Army" and the author mentioned the exploits of Lieutenant Albert Ernst of the 1st Company of the 519 Heavy Panzerjager Bat..."
I know about Albert Ernst well, having also known many of the TD and tank aces. He was one of the very best. He knocked out the T-34/85 of a late friend of mine, Capt. Gregor Koronov.
From the book; "Vitebsk: The Fight and Destruction of Third Panzer Army":"The number of enemy tanks that the panzer army had put out of action since 13 December 1943 had no risen to 1,023, of which 949 had been destroyed. A single onslaught by 28 partially-refitted enemy armoured units had been smashed to smithereens. Lance Corporal Albert, from one of our panzerjager battalions, was at this time awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross for disabling 24 tanks."
From the fighting around the Noviki bridgehead:"The brave garrison there had repelled 33 enemy assaults and had destroyed 10 tanks since 3 February. Lance Corporal Fuchs from the 131st Artillery Regiment displayed considerable cool-headedness in this fighting. With his light field howitzer, he scored direct hits against nine enemy tanks, putting them all out of action. The heavy fighting of the last couple of days was acknowledged in the daily Wehrmacht communique, with both the Lower Saxon 131st Infantry Division under the leadership of Major-General Friedrich Weber and the East Prussian 206th Infantry Division under Lieutenant-General Alfons Hitter being mentioned. Also mentioned on 13 February was the outstanding performance of the 529th Grenadier Regiment under Lieutenant-Colonel Heinrich Kiesling, a recipient of the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, and of the 299th Artillery Regiment under Lieutenant-Colonel Reinking."
Would be interesting to learn more about this incident which was mentioned in the book; "Vitebsk: The Fight and Destruction of Third Panzer Army":" ... From lake-dotted terrain three kilometres north of the Vitebsk-Liozno road, 19 tanks headed northwest and rolled over our frontline with the goal of cutting our supply line. Yet these tanks were without infantry support, so we soon put them all out of action. Sergeant Roslin of the 14th Company of the 689th Grenadier Regiment had destroyed seven of these tanks all on his own."
The defensive combat of the Third Panzer Army during the last few months was again recognised by the highest command on 27 May in the following telegraph message to Colonel-General Georg-Hans Reinhardt:In consideration of your outstanding service and heroism, I name you as the 68th soldier of the German Wehrmacht to be awarded with the Oak Leaves with Swords to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Adolf Hitler.
Colonel-General Georg-Hans Reinhardt:
https://ww2gravestone.com/people/rein...
I read this account by the author in regards to Soviet partisan operations behind the German front line with a pinch of salt:"Over and over, small bandit groups would conceal themselves in marshland and would allow our troops to pass by. They would often lie there for several hours in the mud or under the water, drawing air from an empty bottleneck. They would then attack and murder our troops from behind in the cruellest manner. Such combat methods violated all international agreements. These bandits did not fight humanely."
Really, inhuman, violation of international agreements? Like the Geneva Convention in regards to POW's and civilians which the Germans took so much care to abide by .....
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I read this account by the author in regards to Soviet partisan operations behind the German front line with a pinch of salt:"Over and over, small bandit groups would conceal themselves in marshl..."
Rick, you terrible cynic you! :)
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I read this account by the author in regards to Soviet partisan operations behind the German front line with a pinch of salt:"Over and over, small bandit groups would conceal themselves in marshl..."
The Geneva Conventions of 1929 then in effect (revised in 1949) made partisan/guerrilla (yes there is a distinction b/w the two) illegal under international law. Therefore when captured they could be tried in the field and executed if not in proper uniform. It only takes a general grade officer to sign the death warrant. Same went to Skorzeny's boys in the Ardennes. If Obama had any balls (among many others on both political sides) we would be holding tribunals and killing these bastards over there and not wasting tax payer dollars.
I suppose the rules of war and the complexities in relation to partisans/guerrilla's/freedom fighters and civilian militia is as old as warfare itself.However the point is that the Germans were bitching about the tactics of the partisans when they were conducting industrialized mass murder of civilians and Soviet POW's. It does seem a bit rich to be complaining. :)
He goes back a long way this Obama bloke. :-)
Not that being a Ruski infantryman was a dream job, but one has to wonder about being a tanker. In Hell's Gate, around the Cherkassy timeframe, early '44, the Ruskis would regularly send a dozen or so T-34s through the huge gaps in the German lines. They'd go undetected until they showed up in the chow line. The Germans would dispatch 2 tanks and a pioneer platoon and wipe them out in a routine manner.
I wondered if the T-34s were expected to return in any case?
'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Would be interesting to learn more about this incident which was mentioned in the book; "Vitebsk: The Fight and Destruction of Third Panzer Army":
" ... From lake-dotted terrain three kilometres n..."
Colin wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I read this account by the author in regards to Soviet partisan operations behind the German front line with a pinch of salt:"Over and over, small bandit groups would concea..."
I'm interested to see how this stacks up in view of the rulings at Nuremberg?
Okay, finally posted my review of 
Sniper Ace: From the Eastern Front to SiberiaHere's the review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the book with the group Marc, much appreciated.
carl wrote: "Not that being a Ruski infantryman was a dream job, but one has to wonder about being a tanker. In Hell's Gate, around the Cherkassy timeframe, early '44, the Ruskis would regularly send a dozen ..."
I interviewed three Waffen SS men and one Soviet tank commander at this battle, including Leon Degrelle whose actions would see him receive the Oak Leaves. Gruesome battle.
For those fans of David Glantz, good news, he has a new book due out in March 2018 (UK). I dare say I'll get a copy although I'm only half-way through his four volume study on Stalingrad!
Operation Don's Main Attack: The Soviet Southern Front's Advance on Rostov, January-February 1943 by David M. GlantzDescription:
With the defeat and destruction of German Sixth Army at Stalingrad all but certain at the end of 1942, the war on the Eastern Front took a definitive turn as the Germans struggled to erect a new defensive front to halt the Soviet juggernaut driving west. Operation Don's Main Attack is the first detailed study of the dramatic clash of armies that followed, unfolding inexorably over the course of two months across an expanse of more than 1,600 kilometers.Using recently released Russian archival material never before available to researchers, David M. Glantz provides a close-up account, from both sides, of the planning and conduct of Operation Don-the Soviet offensive by the Red Army's Southern front that aimed to capture Rostov in January-February 1943. His book includes a full array of plans, candid daily reports, situation maps, and strength and casualty reports prepared for the forces that participated in the offensive at every level. Drawing on an unprecedented and comprehensive range of documents, the book delves into many hitherto forbidden topics, such as unit strengths and losses and the foibles and attitudes of command cadre. Glantz's work also presents rare insights into the military strategy, combat tactics, and operational art of such figures as Generals Eremenko and Malinovsky and Field Marshal Erich von Manstein.A uniquely informed study of a critical but virtually forgotten Soviet military operation, Operation Don's Main Attack offers a fresh perspective on the nature of the twentieth century's most terrible of wars.
Also posted in the New Release thread.
I'm reading David M. Glantz's look at the Red Army between 1941-1943.
It's dry and text bookish but a fascinating overview of how the Red Army was equipped, manned, organized (EMO) and the theories on how it fought evolved during this two year period.
I just finished the section telling about the TO&E (to use an US Army phrase) of the various types of units. From Fronts (Army Groups) on down to platoons in a tank or rifle company. My main take away from this is how small Red Army Units were. ie a tank bn in 1942 had an authorized strength of 202 people (and was rarely that big), a tank Rgt between 6 and 800 depending on the type of tank regt it was. A tank platoon had 3 tanks, a co 10, an arty battery, 2 tubes. An armored corps in 1942 had between 18-20K people and between 125-175 tanks depending on how it was going to be used. The only type of unit that was close to the size of comparable western unit was a rifle division - between 10-12K people compared to 15K in a US Inf Div
Sounds like a very detailed and interesting book Happy, keep us posted on your progress and points of interest.I've got this recent publication to try and read on the subject sometime soon:
The Red Army and the Second World War by Alexander Hill
I think half the book must be charts and tables :)
happy wrote: "I'm reading David M. Glantz's look at the Red Army between 1941-1943. It's dry and text bookish but a fascinatin..."
Glantz is an Intel officer through and through. He doesn't feel the need or even really know how to write for providing any sort of entertainment. But man the information he provides is pure gold.
A couple more comments/quotes from Glantz' Colossus RebornAs an old Signal Officer, I found this interesting
Because they were poorly equipped, severely undermanned, and incapable of performing their primary wartime missions, the Red Army's signal forces were the weakest portion of the army's entire force structure on the eve of Operation Barbarossa...
Red Army forces on every level were desperately short of radios on the eve of War. The General Staff and prospective wartime Fronts (Army Groups) lacked 65% of their authorized radios, field armys and corps were short 89% of their radios, and divisions, regiments, and battalions lacked 38, 23 and 42% of their radios respectively. Worse still, 75% of the radios with Front commands were obsolete
Glantz' take on Stalin the War Leader vs HitlerLike his German counterpart, Adolph Hitler, in addition to bearing full and final responsiblility for directing the Soviet war effort, Stalin involved himself in every key political and military decision associated with the conduct of the war and military operations. However unlike Hitler, whose increasingly arbitrary and petty involvement in military decision making often rejected sound military advice, stifled initiative on the part of his military commanders, and hindered the conduct of effective military operations, as the war progressed , although never relinquishing his tight grip on the reigns of power, more prudently, Stalin tended to heed and act on the counsel on his most trusted military advisors. Therefore, unlike Hitler, Stalin emerged from the war unscathed as the unchallenged vozhd' (leader) of the Soviet Union and, in the eyes of his countrymen, the sole architect of victory.
On ZhukovZhukov was an energetic but stubborn commander who conducted military operations with a dogged determination. His sheer force of will, tempered by occasional ruthlessness and utter disregard of casualties, sustained the Red Army during its costly trial by fire during the initial period of war, steeled its defense of Leningrad and Moscow, inspired it as it embarked on its offensive path from late 1942 through 1944, and ultimately helped propel it to victory in 1945. Like the American Civil War General, U.S. Grant, Zhukov understood the terrible nature of modern war and was psychologically prepared to wage it. He demanded and received absolute obedience to his orders, he identified and protected key subordinates, and, at all times, he stood up to and incurred Stalin's wrath.
Great posts Happy, very interesting!
I finally finished this. Excellent information - it's an "Everything you wanted to know about ..., but were afraid to ask" type of book.It's a little difficult to rate. For information it definitely 5 stars, but Col Glantz' writing style leaves much to be desired - very text bookish, dry and a bit stilted - maybe 3 stars. I ended up rating this a week 4 stars (3.75)
A couple of interesting factiods Glantz brings up:
on June 21, 1941 the Red Army was a little over 5 million strong. By December the Wehrmacht had killed or captured over 3 million Soviets and the strength of the Red Army was appox 6 million. At its height the Red Army was roughly 25 million strong. They raised over 500 divisions of various types, some 3 or 4 times during the war.
In one of the tables in the book, Col Glantz lists every division the Red Army raised, the composition, the ethnic mix of its soldiers and the dates it was active.
As a comparison, the US Military at its height was appox 16 million strong and The US Army had just over 100 divisions.
I have his book on Kursk on the night stand (actually the floor:)), but since it's not due till Apr 28, I think I'll read something else first :)
Great bit of information there Happy. I agree with you in regards to rating Glantz's books. They are a treasure trove of detailed information hard to find in other sources but his standard of maps is usually abysmal and the reading can be a drudge at times. I tend to break up my reading of his books by reading something else each time I finish a chapter. Having said that his book on Kursk is an excellent read.
happy wrote: "I finally finished this. Excellent information - it's an "Everything you wanted to know about ..., but were afraid to ask" type of book.It's a little difficult to rate. For information it definit..."
As I understand it, Russian Divisions were less manpower intensive, due to a sever lack of support services, that were considered vital to US Divisions.
That is true - also there were a lot of types of divisions that were not in the US Army TO&E - ie Artillery, Engineer, Different types of Air Force. As I said above, about the only type of division that was near the same size as a compareble American Division was the Rifle division. 12K v 15K. Cavalry Divisions (the Soviets had a lot of them) were only 3-4k in size
tank divisions were about 6-8 K v depending on the type 12-15K for a US AD.
Even when I was in (early-mid 80s) a Soviet Division was significantly smaller than a comparable US Division
Dj wrote: "As I understand it, Russian Divisions were less manpower intensive, due to a sever lack of support services, that were considered vital to US Divisions. ."That'll cost you wars. The more intensive the ratio between fighting & support troops, the better the odds.
happy wrote: "I finally finished this. Excellent information - it's an "Everything you wanted to know about ..., but were afraid to ask" type of book.It's a little difficult to rate. For information it definit..."
Have read a few books by Glantz, and my biggest complaint is his maps.
I just finished reading the WWII novel (Eastern Front) Europe Central and Vollmann definitely did his homework, some of the sources Vollmann cites are Glantz, Beeavor, A Werth, Hans Luck, R. Conquest, H. Salisbury.
Dimitri wrote: "Dj wrote: "As I understand it, Russian Divisions were less manpower intensive, due to a sever lack of support services, that were considered vital to US Divisions. ."That'll cost you wars. The mo..."
It didn't seem to have an overall depreciation effect when the Russians were fighting the Germans, but they had a tendency to place Operations above Supply. They would decide to do something and expect their Services of Supply to make it possible.
Interestingly enough the US Army does have something of the same tendency, but Supply has a veto option in Staffs since they can point out that what you are thinking, is not possible with the supplies we are looking at and make suggestions to what can be done. Tends to keep us a little more out of trouble.
For anyone interested, I typed up my thoughts on Colossus Reborn: The Red Army at War, 1941-1943https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Great review Happy, thanks for sharing with the rest of the group as I am sure a few members will be interested in your thoughts. You may have to change the date from 1951 to 1941 in your first sentence :)
whoops (blush), fixed itthnx
Stalin's General: The Life of Georgy Zhukov by Geoffrey RobertsThe subtitle is questionable. Zhukov's Civil War service and personal life are told in brief, with some much-needed recollection input from his daughter. Neither is it a "the battles of Zhukov" style of biography; he flies in & out of Leningrad in two pages, hardly a Glantz level operational narrative.
Now, it suits my needs perfectly because we spend a lot of time with Zhukov and Stalin or pointing out where version A or B of his often re-edited & (de)censored Autiobiography glosses over his anti-Krushevite omissions.
I imagine even this "definitive" version can use a few annotations:
by Georgy ZhukovP.S. Stumbled upon a thesis on GR titled...* ahem *
"Field Marshall Von Manstein's Counteroffensive of Army Group South, February-March 1943: The Last Operational Level Victory of the Panzer Forces on the Eastern Front"
Avaliable online (72 pages)
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/...
Shame. Any Eastern Front battle study needs one of 'em sexy titles in the style of German codenames!
Zhukov's autobiography sounds interesting, 960 pages! Thanks for the link to that thesis, should make for some interesting reading.
happy wrote: "For anyone interested, I typed up my thoughts on Colossus Reborn: The Red Army at War, 1941-1943https://www.goodreads.com/review/show......"
Who are you trying to fool, Happy? We're always interested in your reviews! :)
:DI started the abridgement of Glantz' Stalingrad series today
I really don't have the time right now to read all 4 volumes of their "Trilogy" I think I'll save that for when I retire :)
THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP
Books mentioned in this topic
Opening the Gates of Hell: Operation Barbarossa, June–July 1941 (other topics)Opening the Gates of Hell: Operation Barbarossa, June–July 1941 (other topics)
Opening the Gates of Hell: Operation Barbarossa, June–July 1941 (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Richard Hargreaves (other topics)Richard Hargreaves (other topics)
Richard Hargreaves (other topics)
Richard Hargreaves (other topics)
Richard Hargreaves (other topics)
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I haven't read any of these, but seeing as they're all Schiffer publications from the late 90's, I'm guessing the proofreading/editing will be lacking.