In praise of repetitive, derivative fantasy

[Bill]

Yes. Most modern fantasy is a variation of the Tolkien theme. But while some fault with this, I love it!

I have many interests, hobbies, and activities. Some I do so for intellectual or spiritual stimulation and development. And others I do to take a break from this thing called reality. And reading fantasy is definitely done for the latter.

So it's not so important to me that a fantasy work is original, but that it's written well. And that I like the characters. Even if they are a bit two-dimensional. I can read a hundred versions of the orphan farmboy with a destiny and/or special power to defeat the world-threatening bad guy. As long as it's written well enough that I can get lost in the world and not be distracted by bad writing.

To me, escaping to a fantasy world is like going on a vacation. Every year we go to the Gulf Shore in Florida. And I don't get sick of it. Yes, it's the same thing, just sand, sun, and surf. But it's done well. And if we want to visit a different beach, it's still the same, but with some differences.

So it doesn't matter to me how similar the plot, location, and characters are between LOTR, Shannara, Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Belgariad, or the countless others. I want to visit places based in the technologically-simple, Middle Ages milieu. I want to visit a place full of magic. I want to travel across scenic, unsullied, natural landscapes. I want to stop every once in a while and have a good meal around a campfire or in a smoky tavern. I want to delve into ancient, foreboding, dungeons. And I want do all of this in a mixed company of fun, moral, loyal characters.

Sure, when the convention is bent, or broken a bit, I can still enjoy the work. But it's still about the escapism and the characters.

And what classic fantasy character wasn't 2D? I would argue that even the most popular and quintessential ones were pretty straightforward. Frodo Baggins. Luke Skywalker. Harry Potter. And internal conflict doesn't automatically make a character 3D. Internal and external conflict can easily be either 2D or 3D.

Fantasy is different from "accepted" literature. Fantasy is based on fairy tale and myth. They are representations of the age-old dilemmas within the human experience. And sometimes this is best done with primitive, simple, child-like broad strokes. It's good against evil, man. And sometimes you gotta act these things out with dolls or action figures.

I don't get sick of eating General Tso, again and again. I don't get sick of visiting the same amusement park. I don't get sick taking walks around my neighborhood. I don't get sick of blues songs that all follow the same 12-bar pattern.

And I don't think I'll ever get sick of "travelling to Mordor with a few hobbits, wizard, and martially-experienced humans."

As long as it's done well.

[Dharmakirti]

You might enjoy reading the blog postFantasy and the Home of the Spirit
by Roger Eichorn (a guest blogger on R. Scott Bakker's blog, Three Pound Brain).

The best fantasy novels, in my view, are homes, not mere objects. Sharp, psychologically astute ‘literary’ novels can be fascinating objects, but by and large they don’t provide readers with a world. It’s this ‘world-disclosing’ potential of fantasy that explains, I think, why those of us who have learned to read and love fantasy often find ourselves returning again and again to the same fantasy book or series. We may discover in the books new psychological or thematic nuances, just as we might if we were to re-read a modern ‘literary’ novel—and this might be part of the enjoyment of re-reading—but it seems to me that that’s secondary to the urge to revisit a world, as opposed to reexamining an object.

The best fantasy novels are not just windows onto enchanted worlds; they also provide us with the experience of returning home.

[Bill]

Fascinating article, Dharmakirti. Thanks for posting.

[Sherry]

I would argue that Tolkein himself was derivative of even older mythology/history. I am a Christian and can see parallels between the orphan/poor farmboy saving the world and Jesus Christ (born in a stable, from the countryside, saved all mankind). There are probably other myths/histories from other cultures or religions that I am not aware of that are similar.

[Dharmakirti]

You're welcome. I thought it touched on some of the same sentiments of your post.

That particular blog is one of my favorites. I would recommend spending some time reading through some of the posts. The blog author (R. Scott Bakker) was working on a PhD in philosophy at one time so a lot of the posts are philosophically motivated which can leave me scratching my head at times, but I awlays get something out of them.

[Rob]

I think the people who like fantasy novels (and some sci fi) are those who like to discover and explore. They don't want to sit down and know all the "rules" for the world. We know that in our world if you step off a cliff you fall. But in Fantasy you're just as likely to fly.

The other thing ~I~ like about both Fantasy and Sci Fi is the ability to read/ discuss/ consider issues as abstractions. The Ferengi of Star Trek (DS9 especially) are a chance to explore pure capitalism. For the DnD game my wife and I ran, Halflings were a chance to explore Quakerism and pure communism. When the protagonists stumble onto a race that has mandatory ritual suicide for any over the age of 30 you get to discuss/ consider the nature of our lives and our legacy.

And I really do find these oblique conversations just as engaging as doing them directly.

[Christina]

Totally agree with you Bill. If you really think about it most stories nowadays whether they are fantasy, sci-fi, reality based fiction, etc...are all just variations on a theme anyway. As you said, it is all in how it is portrayed that makes the story interesting.

[Rob]

Fantasy is a lot less deriviative than Realistic Romantic Comedies....

[Sean]

Rob wrote: "I think the people who like fantasy novels (and some sci fi) are those who like to discover and explore. They don't want to sit down and know all the "rules" for the world. We know that in our wo..."


Except fantasy doesn't do much exploring outside a narrowly defined comfort-zone. We never see a realistic depiction of what pre-modern culture is really like -- even in the supposedly gritty Song of Ice and Fire universe, the protagonists don't subscribe to pre-Enlightenment ideals that would make us uncomfortable. And any non-European culture is either depicted as a Noble Warrior Race which comes around to help the protagonist, because that's what non-Europeans are supposed to do, or an Evil Warrior Race which doesn't have an interest in helping the protagonist and is therefore bad.

Rob wrote: "Fantasy is a lot less deriviative than Realistic Romantic Comedies...."

No, it really isn't. Especially if your definition of romantic comedies include things from outside Hollywood -- the novels of Nick Hornby or Yuyuko Takemiya, for instance.

[Jonathon]

I completely agree. Yes, most modern fantasy has gotten to the point where it's variations on a theme, but I don't particularly read fantasy novels to be told a story.

I read them to "explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilisations," to inhabit a new world and it's this that makes sci-fi and fantasy novels worth going back to time after time. And part of the enjoyment I find in going back and re-reading is piecing together more of the workings of the world and really just letting myself live in the fictional world, even just for a little while.

[Bill]

I would say personally, that when I want to explore "strange, new" worlds, I read Sci Fi. But when I just want to explore, it's Fantasy. I'm okay with the world being pretty mundane, in the Middle Ages vein, as long as the people, creatures, artifacts, and magic are compelling. Face it, Middle Earth didn't have that many locales or cultures that were outside what we're used to in our world. That isn't to say that I don't enjoy when it gets a little different. The world in The Way of Kings is quite fascinating. But it was still the characters that made me love that book.

[Kamil]

Bill wrote: "Yes. Most modern fantasy is a variation of the Tolkien theme. But while some fault with this, I love it!

I have many interests, hobbies, and activities. Some I do so for intellectual or spiritua..."

if we'd put all books in a computer that could analize a literature work it would cut it intopieces till it would find arguments proving even the guy that invented writing wasn't original. we shouldn't look at books in terms of originality ( all was already written by someone, there aren't any new themes left) but we should consider the style, the fine craft-work on the phrases, the small details.
As you can see i somehow aggree whith you all on this topic, however i wouldn't like the 100th orphan chosen one whith a destiny; i'd rather read about an orphan that decides to becme the chosen one ( there is a big difference)

[Tamahome]

The Tyranny of the Talented Reader (I have to go to archive.org unfortunately)

http://web.archive.org/web/2011072604...

[Bill]

Another fascinating article, Tamahome. And it definitely describes me, as well as my being a "buff" and "fanboy"

However, I don't read bad fantasy. I've just tried. I can't. The writer's lack-of-talent is too distracting. (Which is why I couldn't get past page 2 of Twilight.)

It also makes me think...

I usually look down at the people that just devour, hand over fist, every book written by King, Ludlum, Hillerman, Patterson, Higgins Clark, Picoult. But am I really any different? Is my taste in fantasy any more "reserved" than theirs?

[Alterjess]

I love this thread.

At my family's cottage up in Canada, we have one room entirely stocked with "bad sci-fi." The worlds are nothing new, the writing is mostly mediocre, but if all you want is a couple of hours in a perfectly serviceable spaceship, they're perfect. There's something very comforting about reading a formulaic book in a genre you love.

[aldenoneil]

Jess wrote: "There's something very comforting about reading a formulaic book in a genre you love."

This is why I continue to play Zelda games.

[Dharmakirti]

Sean wrote: "Except fantasy doesn't do much exploring outside a narrowly defined comfort-zone. We never see a realistic depiction of what pre-modern culture is really like -- even in the supposedly gritty Song of Ice and Fire universe, the protagonists don't subscribe to pre-Enlightenment ideals that would make us uncomfortable. And any non-European culture is either depicted as a Noble Warrior Race which comes around to help the protagonist, because that's what non-Europeans are supposed to do, or an Evil Warrior Race which doesn't have an interest in helping the protagonist and is therefore bad."

I HIGHLY recommend the fantasy work of R. Scott Bakker. The first book in his series is The Darkness That Comes Before.

[Keith]

I say it about movies all the time, and it's true of what i read as well. Formula, well executed, can be tremendous fun.

[Kevin]

Great post Bill.

I love how the fantasy genre seems to be spreading its wings a little in the past years. With great new authors exploring completely new worlds and modern viewpoints or bringing a 'dark and gritty' sense of realism. But there's few things I enjoy as much as hunkering down with some good old fashioned Good vs Evil Epic fantasy tale populated with farm boys.

Keith wrote: "I say it about movies all the time, and it's true of what i read as well. Formula, well executed, can be tremendous fun."

So does this mean that for once I can say, in a geek community, that I really, thoroughly enjoyed the Avatar film without getting looked down on? :p

[Bill]

Jess wrote: "At my family's cottage up in Canada, we have one room entirely stocked with "bad sci-fi." The worlds are nothing new, the writing is mostly mediocre, but if all you want is a ..."

This reminds me of the time we rented a condo in a complex in Florida. The pool house had a wall full of potboilers stocked by the constant stream of vacationers. Leave one, take one.

And since I burned through the new Harry Potter book I had bought quicker than I expected, and there were no bookstores around, I had no choice but to make my way through the wall. Which gave me a good reason to finally see what all this Dan Brown fuss was about.

(I fared better on other Florida trips, such as making my way through three Malazan Books of the Fallen.)

I do say that vacation beach or pool reading is by far my favorite pastime. Polished off many a tome while walking back and forth in the shallow end of a pool, while holding the book safely above the waterline. From dawn till dusk. Ahhh.

And no, Kevin. I far from fault your enjoyment of Avatar. I thought it was great and saw it twice.

[A.E.]

I often ask people what they enjoy most about the fantasy genre. (In fact, I created a word art of their answers on my blog.) Often, it's Escape, but also it's Imagination, sometimes Creativity. So, yes, comfort is important to the genre, but also the fireworks of ideas. I would like to be taken to farther shores, not just to Flordia but also to black sand beaches, to glacier caves, to cloud roads.

That said, certain things like powerful storytelling, should not change. Archetypes and story structure have endured for a reason. Unleash the orphans!

[Bill]

Æ wrote: "Unleash the orphans!"

Wouldn't that be a great fantasy book. A huge fellowship of orphans, each more naive and earnest than the next. Or a short story featuring Harry Potter, Frodo, and Luke Skywalker. (And maybe throw in Peter Parker, Huck Finn, and Dorothy Gale for good measure.)

[Sean]

Bill wrote: "I would say personally, that when I want to explore "strange, new" worlds, I read Sci Fi. But when I just want to explore, it's Fantasy. I'm okay with the world being pretty mundane, in the Middle Ages vein, as long as the people, creatures, artifacts, and magic are compelling. Face it, Middle Earth didn't have that many locales or cultures that were outside what we're used to in our world."

There's nothing wrong with a book being that way, but when that's the vast majority of secondary-world fantasy novels, there's a problem. It's not like fantasy based on Japan, China, the Middle East or Mesoamerica can't be escapist fun, but if everyone just gobbles up the derivative pap we're only going to get derivative pap, which sends a nasty message to people who aren't of European heritage.

[Stan]

You should try Fair Coin

"Tired of cookie-cutter young-adult novels? The cure awaits, in the shape of E.C. Myers' astounding Fair Coin — a book which, among other things, achieves the feat of seeming like a dark fairy tale and a clever science fiction epic, rolled into one..."

http://io9.com/5903462/warning-this-b...

[Joe]

Can I give a shout-out to derivative, repetitive scifi? It's enjoyable too - a little world with some small piece of social comment snuck in. Like a meatball with sun dried tomato pieces. Traditional, but with one thing to mull over.

A great example that I recently re-discovered was Jack Chalker's Lord of the Diamond series. Actually, its a pretty great world-building experiment: 4 books, 4 worlds, same uberman character. A neat take on environment shaping the person, but not dark or forcefully convoluted. A fun read that just didn't keep up with the complexity of some of the books I read recently, but was nonetheless a good time.

[David]

Joe - Lord of the Diamond was, in my humble opinion, amazing. I found it ages ago, after finishing the Well World saga, while looking for something else by Chalker.

May I suggest the Dancing Gods series, also by Chalker? It's fairly derivative yet an escapist read of excellent calibre.

[David]

Sherry wrote: "I would argue that Tolkein himself was derivative of even older mythology/history. I am a Christian and can see parallels between the orphan/poor farmboy saving the world and Jesus Christ (born in..."

LOTR was completely a well disguised Christ myth. Gandalf dying for his companions and being reborn is not the only parallel. In that respect it was pretty derivative.

[Bryek]

Well if anyone were to ask me, if they think that all fantasy is the same and they are tired of reading the same thing over and over. Well I say to them "find something else then!" and when they grumble about nothing is out there I say back "then write this new fantasy that is all different and doesn't involve an orphan, downtrodden etc etc and fill the niche" When they say they don't have time or they shouldn't have to i say "then quit complaining!"
So to those in here that are wanting fantasy with oriental, native american etc etc culture types, get writing! and to those who complain its always about an orphan or someone who is downtrodden, How else are you going to get a character who is content with is life to up and leave everything to go and fight for a cause when he has things in his home town to hold him back? That is why they use orphans so much. They have to have a reason to leave.

[Paul]

David wrote: "Sherry wrote: "I would argue that Tolkein himself was derivative of even older mythology/history. I am a Christian and can see parallels between the orphan/poor farmboy saving the world and Jesus ..."

The dead and resurrected god motive is itself highly derivative along with the communion blood and wine as partaking of the godhead.

When dealing with mythology you can see connections and similar tropes constantly recurring, so if a storyteller bases their tale on mythology is is no surprise that there will be similarities.

The orphaned/poor boy/girl theme is well known in folk tales and fairy stories.

[Esther]

I think the old, familiar tropes in a story only become obvious when there is nothing else capturing your attention.
How many versions are there of Shakespeare's plays and that is not just a similar trope but the exact same story.

[[deleted user]]

Bill put it so eloquently and I share his feelings. Fantasy to me is like a nice warm blanket, cosy and familiar. Its a place were you meet old and new friends by the fire in an inn over a mug of ale. I just love it, and even though I love the exploration of new worlds in sci fi, more often than not I return to this medieval land. One of my most favored experiences in life is to start a new book in a new world and get to know the people and places in it, its so magical and its safe. Love it.

[AndrewP]

I have to agree with Bill too. There is a certain part of the enjoyment that comes from the familiar territory.

[Tamahome]

You should be very happy with current publishing trends then.