Defending Jacob
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Was Jacob guilty - What would you do if it was your child?
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Harold, I understand that trying to say Jacob definitely murdered Ben because of the "murder gene" really wouldn't hold up much in court. But, that's exactly my point, though. Why even have it in there? If Andy thought it was even a possibility that he could have passed something on to Jacob, he should have done something about it from Jacob's young childhood. It bothers me that the author didn't even explore the issue. Why even include his grandfather & father into this story if the whole subject wasn't even going to be explored? It would have been really interesting if we could have heard from Andy's grandfather & father about why they were the way they were. I was really hoping for the last chapter be to from Jacob's point of view. His reasoning behind why he killed Ben & (most likely) Hope.
Instead we get all these characters without any personality, without any thoughts of their own. We don't even get to read about what Laurie is thinking & going through. We didn't get to hear about the police collecting evidence at the murder scene.
All we get to read is about Andy looking past all his family's faults & just "knowing" that Jacob is innocent because he "knows" Jacob & Jacob wouldn't murder. Except - he doesn't know Jacob. He basically knew nothing about Jacob. And he never admitted that in any sense.
Being a parent myself, I also could not get past that these parents, obviously otherwise doting on their only son, did not know anything at all about his life. I'm sure that might happen in real life in sad circumstances - but it is not the norm - most parents I know try very hard (to the chagrin and annoyance of their teens) to monitor Facebook and Twitter, and keep up with what's happening in their kids' lives.These parents were so oblivious, to the point of not being believable.
Actually, I know parents just like Andy and Laurie. These parents see only what they want to see. I found the reactions believable, but frustrating. Just like I feel when I see my neighbors ignoring their children's real problems, allowing them to escalate.
AJ wrote: "Jacob was not guilty. We discussed this in our book club and almost EVERYONE disagreed with me, but....I believe that his mother was the one who was guilty all along. I believe that she thought s..."
I am confused. What evidence in the text is there? I read the book quickly so I could have easily missed any clues or hints that would indicate this angle.
Carmen wrote: "From the time that Jacob's "friend" told us about the lost dog and that he'd had to "bury it", I never thought he was innocent. When Patz "hanged himself", I wasn't fooled. People that abuse an..."Agreed. As soon as the dog situation was described, I felt certain of Jacob's guilty. While an animal torturer does not a murderer make...well it does for me.
Leah wrote: "Harold, I understand that trying to say Jacob definitely murdered Ben because of the "murder gene" really wouldn't hold up much in court. But, that's exactly my point, though. Why even have it in t..."Fair enough Leah. I take your point but I think for me it aided in the tension of the trial strategy. I found it interesting as a lawyer
Esthy wrote: "Carmen wrote: "From the time that Jacob's "friend" told us about the lost dog and that he'd had to "bury it", I never thought he was innocent. When Patz "hanged himself", I wasn't fooled. Peopl..."I totally agree. When I taught high school I read a book (Lorenzo ?) about the natural progression of a sociopath; they usually start by abusing and killing animals.
Leah, all characters have flaws. Andy's flaw is that he didn't want to face the darkness in his son. The murder gene is far from crazy; look into Ted Bundy's genetics and several other serial killers. It really doesn't matter if its admissible; only that Andy is aware and trying to deal with it. I know its a book lawyers tend to love.There's always gonna be people who hate all good works. I knew a guy who once said Forest Gump was a piece of shit and there were lukewarm reviews for Schndler's List. Thats all part of the foolishness. What kind of investigation did you want Andy to do? It was a stabbing at the park, the evidence was coming from the cops and sometimes a case just is what it is
AJ wrote: "Jacob was not guilty. We discussed this in our book club and almost EVERYONE disagreed with me, but....I believe that his mother was the one who was guilty all along. I believe that she thought s..."
AJ, thats some of the dumbest shit I've ever heard, did you read the book?
Great book. Jacob was thrilled to find out that his fascination with killing was "justified" by the murder gene. He may have acted on it from anger over bullying with Ben but Hope was a thrill kill. He was trying on his new profession. His father loved him and could not believe his precious baby boy was capable even after death he went on to describe how he felt Jacob would go on to live a normal life just like dad. Complete denial. Mom knew her son was a monster that would never stop and she could not deal with the toll it would take on her. I think she may have had more to do with her son's disorder than dad's genetics. She knew this and was guilt ridden. She talked about his excessive crying as a baby and she would put him in his crib and shut the door. She didn't give him the nurturing as a baby. She was detached. Maybe Jacob was trying to get her attention. Very interesting dilemma of nature vs nurture. Loved it.
This is a fantastic book! I really enjoyed it and it's probably one of my favorite books that I have ever read! I think it's interesting what the mother does in the end.. she couldn't live with the person Jacob was becoming. It's interesting how Andy had this history of violence in his family and whether or not that actually impacted how Jacob is we don't really know.
I agree Mariah-I loved it too. And how about the irony of the mom surviving and the husband having to testify against her this time around
I was caught in the triangles of this book, and could not put it down. As the mother of three, and grandmother of seven, I could only empathize with ALL the players. I could understand why Andy wanted to protect Jacob - I was guilty of doing such a thing myself, only not covering up potential murder, I also feared what "might" happen to my child, for teenage stupidity. Mothers are protective, and sometimes enabling. Kids have to learn "the hard way" - hit bottom, before getting back up on their own.I was NOT surprised that Jacob was guilty, in the end, although it was heart-wrenching.
Maria wrote: "Being a parent myself, I also could not get past that these parents, obviously otherwise doting on their only son, did not know anything at all about his life. I'm sure that might happen in real l..."I thought that too for a while, but then reminded myself of who was giving the narrative. This was Andy's view of their parenting - maybe they weren't even as doting as he says. He seems to have a skewed view of many things.
If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was something built into their system ... almost like a genetic thing. I would love my child . I like that Andy was so loyal to Jacob, but i wish he had woken up and seen what a mess his wife was becoming . He was an idiot though to marry a "nice jewish girl." what the hell was he thinking? That's the worst possible decision you could make. Also ... for trying to run away from a past that wasn't even that bad , and to cover it up was dumb but whatever. Andy was still a great character, and so was Jacob. I have nothing good to say about Laurie... she was a typical , emotional , insecure mess... one of those moms and women i can't stand. At first she was siding with Jacob and defending him, then she turned on him . She was just awful and had issues. She should have died in the end , not Jacob, now that would be a major plot twist... someone attempting to kill their child but their child survives and they die instead. Maybe she will get sent to jail in the end when she wakes up , at least that would make the ending more understandable.
Carol wrote: "I found this book intriguing, the parents sympathetic and Jacob guilty. I doubt treatment would have helped him, he'd have needed to feel something first. While Andy reacted in a very protective wa..."
It was not an act of love... it was an act of selfish self-righteousness . Anyone who thinks murder is an act of love is clearly oblivious as to what love is , or what it means to love your child.
It was not an act of love... it was an act of selfish self-righteousness . Anyone who thinks murder is an act of love is clearly oblivious as to what love is , or what it means to love your child.
Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was something built into their system ... almo..." Don't agree. Laurie brought the monster into this world then took responsibility for saving the world from him. If more parents did this we wouldn't be in the mess we're in
Atty wrote: "Carol wrote: "I found this book intriguing, the parents sympathetic and Jacob guilty. I doubt treatment would have helped him, he'd have needed to feel something first. While Andy reacted in a very..."Loving your child does not mean you allow him to kill, while sheltering him and teaching him to avoid responsibility. That is aiding and abetting, as well poor parenting.
Carmen wrote: "Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was something built into their sy..."Well said but murder is not the answer. I've often wondered what I would do if I were convinced my child was a serial killer. I would inform the authorities for sure, but whether I would break all ties is something that would depend upon whether it was a one time heat of passion killing or a premeditated/pleasure killing. The latter would lead me to disestablish any ties.
Carmen wrote: "Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was something built into their sy..."
That's the most messed up thing someone could say, i hope you're not a parent. No.... Laurie wasn't taking responsibility for bringing Jacob into the world (she also wasn't the only one who brought him into the world so she shouldn't have been the only one to make the decision) she was avoiding responsibility of bringing him into the world, she took the easy way out , the coward's way out and i have no respect for her, anyone who thinks she did the right thing needs to seriously take time to reevaluate themselves.
That's the most messed up thing someone could say, i hope you're not a parent. No.... Laurie wasn't taking responsibility for bringing Jacob into the world (she also wasn't the only one who brought him into the world so she shouldn't have been the only one to make the decision) she was avoiding responsibility of bringing him into the world, she took the easy way out , the coward's way out and i have no respect for her, anyone who thinks she did the right thing needs to seriously take time to reevaluate themselves.
☯Emily wrote: "Atty wrote: "Carol wrote: "I found this book intriguing, the parents sympathetic and Jacob guilty. I doubt treatment would have helped him, he'd have needed to feel something first. While Andy reac..."
Loving your child means protecting them and doing whatever is necessary to make them happy if you can't change what's making them "evil" in others eyes. Yes it is aiding and abetting, it's also what any parent who truly loved their child would do, or at least they would move somewhere away from everyone else. There were many alternatives . There are many alternatives.... to killing your own child... that's just sick.
Loving your child means protecting them and doing whatever is necessary to make them happy if you can't change what's making them "evil" in others eyes. Yes it is aiding and abetting, it's also what any parent who truly loved their child would do, or at least they would move somewhere away from everyone else. There were many alternatives . There are many alternatives.... to killing your own child... that's just sick.
Harold wrote: "Carmen wrote: "Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was something buil..."
Murder isn't the answer? How does that make Laurie any better? she murdered her son... premeditated murder!!! She's the one i would cut ties with , not Jacob... Jacob is one of those extraordinary kids... he's not a regular kid and he should not be treated as such... he needs someone who understands him and can help him cope or at least keep him out of prison. Dexter kills and everyone loves him because he's a "hero" .... no... he isn't ... evil is just a matter of perspective and death is inevitable and so is murder... just because a judge says someone is guilty ... and they get a lethal injection in a sterile room, that does not make it any less of a murder. End of story.
Murder isn't the answer? How does that make Laurie any better? she murdered her son... premeditated murder!!! She's the one i would cut ties with , not Jacob... Jacob is one of those extraordinary kids... he's not a regular kid and he should not be treated as such... he needs someone who understands him and can help him cope or at least keep him out of prison. Dexter kills and everyone loves him because he's a "hero" .... no... he isn't ... evil is just a matter of perspective and death is inevitable and so is murder... just because a judge says someone is guilty ... and they get a lethal injection in a sterile room, that does not make it any less of a murder. End of story.
Animal cruelty is the first pre cursor to violence. I believe you have a responsibility to all the people you share this planet with to not allow your child to hurt them. Laurie had already tried to teach Jacob right from wrong. We see how well all those so called alternatives work - prison overcrowding... letting evil people out to hurt more people. We see it everywhere around us.. monsters that shoot people already having long rap sheets, murderers having assaulted people in the past...
Carmen wrote: "Animal cruelty is the first pre cursor to violence. I believe you have a responsibility to all the people you share this planet with to not allow your child to hurt them. Laurie had already tried t..."
It's not always a sign of a psychopath.... that's crazy... believe it or not a lot of kids for example like to torture insects ... yes they are violent but it's normal. Also the only responsibility a parent has is to protect their child , ensure their happiness, and an optional responsibility is to help everyone you care about and love , not just your children. Prison overcrowding isn't because there's a lot of "evil" people out there, it's because a lot of people get busted for minor crimes. Also.... this society is hypocritical... they murder yet if you murder you go to prison... they lie and cheat and steal but since they are in positions of power, or make the law, they are above the law. There will always be conflict and death with humanity, it's inevitable... but for someone to be so self-righteous and call everyone else monsters... it's just ridiculous.. and i am tired of hearing it. Get off your high horse... because in certain situations , many people would kill... and most people who talk the way you do can't comprehend the human psyche , society, or the situation as a whole... humanity is so messed up , now more than ever, and there is no avoiding it. It will only get worse probably. lol
It's not always a sign of a psychopath.... that's crazy... believe it or not a lot of kids for example like to torture insects ... yes they are violent but it's normal. Also the only responsibility a parent has is to protect their child , ensure their happiness, and an optional responsibility is to help everyone you care about and love , not just your children. Prison overcrowding isn't because there's a lot of "evil" people out there, it's because a lot of people get busted for minor crimes. Also.... this society is hypocritical... they murder yet if you murder you go to prison... they lie and cheat and steal but since they are in positions of power, or make the law, they are above the law. There will always be conflict and death with humanity, it's inevitable... but for someone to be so self-righteous and call everyone else monsters... it's just ridiculous.. and i am tired of hearing it. Get off your high horse... because in certain situations , many people would kill... and most people who talk the way you do can't comprehend the human psyche , society, or the situation as a whole... humanity is so messed up , now more than ever, and there is no avoiding it. It will only get worse probably. lol
Let's not feed the troll.
Atty wrote: "Harold wrote: "Carmen wrote: "Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it again and it was..."You clearly misinterpreted my words. Murdering your child is not the answer to stopping him from killing.
Harold wrote: "Atty wrote: "Harold wrote: "Carmen wrote: "Atty wrote: "If it was my child i would keep them out of jail whether they were guilty or not... and teach them how to get away with it if they did it aga..."
Lol oh ok, that's what you meant. Thanks for clearing that up... at first i thought that was what you were saying and then i guess i just went with the other assumption since most people on this thread seem to be against me XD
Glad you see the flaw in Laurie's "logic" too.
She was probably the worst character in the book ... but interesting in terms of character development.
Lol oh ok, that's what you meant. Thanks for clearing that up... at first i thought that was what you were saying and then i guess i just went with the other assumption since most people on this thread seem to be against me XD
Glad you see the flaw in Laurie's "logic" too.
She was probably the worst character in the book ... but interesting in terms of character development.
congrats Ashley-big knockout blow to Detroit IMO
I agree, I wanted so badly for Jacob to be innocent, and I kept going back and forth with innocent, then guilty, but once the girl on the beach dissappeared, I knew he was guilty. I felt for his parents, the dad truly desperately wanting to believe his son, but his mother at the end knew he was guilty, and I felt she couldn't live with knowing his guilt, because this was something he would keep doing over and over again...The ending was like a huge WOW!!!
I don't think the point is whether Jacob was really guilty or not. As the title reads, the book is not about Jacob at all. It's about how everyone else reacts to his situation as a prime suspect.
I keep thinking about the night Jacob’s mother couldn’t sleep because she heard something like a cat being tortured. Was that Jacob?
Yes. Jacob was a monster. I had a mother once tell me if you find that you brought an evil child into this world, it's up to you to remove him from this world (she was sorry she hadn't drowned bad "child" in the washing machine or something after he tied his father to a post in the basement and beat him)
Her comments always stayed with me even though I only met her the once
Mary Unger wrote: "I keep thinking about the night Jacob’s mother couldn’t sleep because she heard something like a cat being tortured. Was that Jacob?"Um....yeah....
Marisela wrote: "Loved it!Anyone remember the part when the parents are awakened by sounds of an animal being killed torturously slow? Andy said it was probably a wolf. Why the heck did they stay in bed and not in..."
I felt exactly that way, too. I think maybe they were too afraid to face what they both knew was taking place. If ever a family needed help, it was this one. Sad and thought-provoking. And Jacob was too desensitized showing no concern -- just emotionless when both murders were discovered. After going back and forth, the book ended with me having no problem believing that Jacob was guilty of both. But that fact still didn't let Laurie off the hook for her decision in the end.
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