Grace Filled Fiction Spotlight discussion
Crafting Realistic Christian Fic
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It Takes More Than Attitude
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J.S.
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Apr 16, 2012 10:53AM
Doesn't it go without saying that our writing should be its best? Maybe it's just me, but I would never submit something for publication if I didn't think my writing wasn't any good. And I don't think I'm *that* naive about my writing; I'm always seeking to improve and I'm obsessed with editing.
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I have to agree with JS. I think that it's obvious that a Christian writer has to be a good quality writer regardless of the genre they try to enter into. I don't think that the standards for quality should be lower for writers just because they are in the Christian market, so that's a non-issue for me.
All of the writers in this group, I think (and it seems that most of us are writers!) care greatly about the quality of our writing. Historically, though, I don't think that's always been the case with all writers who wrote for the "Christian" literary market as such. As Frank Schaeffer brings out in Addicted to Mediocrity: Contemporary Christians and the Arts and Sham Pearls for Real Swine: Beyond the Cultural Dark Age-A Quest for Renaissance, there has been a mentality on the part of some writers and publishers (encouraged by the fact that, at least in the past, the Christian market was a backwater literary ghetto that didn't attract as much talented competition as some other markets) that quality was secondary to theological purity of message and conformity of content to certain taboos --and there have been paying customers in that market who were satisfied with that. I know that I've read at least two contemporary novels by big-name Christian writers that struck me as poorly-executed, shoddy efforts that were thrown onto the page to make a quick buck, and as a reader I didn't appreciate that. That has nothing to do with whether the writing is "edgy" or not; personally, I don't care about that one way or another, but I care mightily about whether a work has the literary qualities to be a good, rewarding read, and that will include being true to the fundamental realities of human psychological and moral nature, and making those human characters real to me (which I guess is what our group means by "realistic" :-) ). That's what I look for as a reader and strive to deliver as a writer.That said, I think there are two counter-currents to the situation Thomas is describing. First, my impression is that as Christian fiction attracts more readers, it's attracting more writers and more attention from publishers, and that this does result in increasing concern for product quality, sharpened by competition. Second, with all due respect to what Thomas has observed in his own experience, I'm not sure the quality of secular writing is uniformly better than that of the offerings in CBA bookstores. I've seen a lot of secular fiction that's simply tree-wasting garbage on the purely literary level, hack work pure and simple. And there are also social and market trends there that encourage that: the decline of English education in the public schools, the glut of self-published e-books that are unvetted by anybody, and an industry that's more interested in formulas it's sure will sell than in looking for real quality or taking chances on innovation. Granted, I haven't read most of the secular authors Thomas cited (except for McCrumb, who's one of my favorites!).
Thanks, Thomas, and thanks for the clarification!I agree that Christian writers (and readers) lose a lot if they limit themselves to only reading Christian authors. You're right that we need to learn from all of those who write quality fiction, whoever they are.
Werner wrote: "Thanks, Thomas, and thanks for the clarification!I agree that Christian writers (and readers) lose a lot if they limit themselves to only reading Christian authors. You're right that we need to ..."
Also agreed!
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One partic..."
Thomas, I agree that ABA writers prose tends to shine more than the prose in the Christian market. I've said that before. Some have agreed while others got mad at me for saying it. I think there are real reasons for this. 1) I read quite a few ABA crime fic blogs written by readers and they have no problem criticizing an ABA novel, pointing out what's wrong with it. That gives the author a chance to take a good look at her/his writing. I think Christian blogs written by readers are too timid, not wanting to hurt the feelings of Christian authors. Now I've noticed that most ABA authors are just as reluctant as Christian authors to criticize a fellow writer's work. 2) ABA writers are a larger bunch. They're influenced from a larger pool. We tend to take "Christian writing courses" and then whatever is "hot" technically appears in tons of Christian novels after that.
I'm not going to use this discussion to promote my novels. But I do want to say one thing. Although I think my writing was good to begin with, as I write (and I've got two published and one on the way), I see my writing improving.
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Werner, I think there's a fear in Christian circles in the arts to do anything that's unseemly. That produces mediocrity. That's changing, thankfully.
I purchased the movie Fireproof for my kids to watch when I homeschooled them. Then we discussed pornography and fidelity in marriage after. My preteens loved it. I on the other hand was very disappointed. I thought the movie mediocre.
The settings were totally unreal. The street the couple lived on looked as if a technical crew went by, trimming all the lawns, picking up litter and debris - as I'm sure they did before shooting, but it didn't look real in the scene. The interior of the house and the firehouse didn't look lived in. Very sterile. Nothing out of place.
All of the firefighters were pretty polite, none had food stains on their undershirts. None belched. They weren't like any firefighters I've known. Because they came across as Ken dolls, the acting was stilted to me. Now I've read Christians commenting on FB and other places how refreshing it was to watch a movie that was "clean." I guess they meant that even though pornorgraphy was a theme, there was absolutely no physical sex even suggested in the movie. That's not good enough for me.
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Thomas, I agree the best "gritty" writers in the noir murder mystery/detective series genre are in the ABA market. When I want to learn about the craft I read Michael Connelly, Robert Crais, Barbara Parker, Lee Child, and others. I also read J Mark Bertrand, Steven James, and Robert Liparulo in the Christian market.
Nike, why do you think then that the movie has been such a big hit amongst Christians? I've never seen it myself, but I've heard the hype and know of a lot of Christians who think it's wonderful. Are Christians more tolerant of poor presentation in Christian movies and books than secular readers and viewers? You've brought up the topic of message versus quality writing elsewhere. Is this what it comes back to? Do we Christians simply forgive low quality because of a wonderful message?
Thomas said: I see your point about Christian authors possibly cutting themselves off from discovering the quality of secular writers I do agree with you here!
But I have to say that there are many writers who don't read enough to know what good quality writing is in the secular writing arena as well.
I'm not a published writer, and when I do seek publication, I probably won't seek publication in the Christian market. Not out of shame of my faith, but because what I have to say isn't going to be suitable for the Christian market, even if deep down, that message of faith is there, because it's inherent to who I am. I have no problem with being a Christian writer. I think it's a great way to glorify God and spread the Good News. But for me, it's more about telling a story that resonates. I guess my long rambling point is just that I think a writer should be true to who they are, and not worry about defining or confining themselves to a genre. I think that's when their message gets stifled. We've talked about the issues of Realistic Christian writers, and I'm not naive about that. But anything worthwhile is worth the effort.
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Janelle, I wouldn't say the acting was bad in Fireproof. But it wasn't great either. It was pretty good.
The staging was so-so. Disappointing. The characterization was thin.
I think Christians were thrilled to have a major motion picture that was "Christian."
Thomas,I don't know anything about the quality of writing of 'edgy' Christian fiction.
There does, however, appear to be a strong bias against certain subject material, even in the absence of explicit sex, violence, or foul language. Claims of inferior quality against such books would be hard to justify without someone actually reading them. And I'm afraid that it isn't just agents, publishers, and Christian bookstores who bar the door. Some Christian book bloggers appear to have similar qualms. At some point the question becomes how much more time to invest in a Christian community that leans so heavily toward Pharisaism? Especially when other markets are more open?
Lianne
Mod
I don't know anything about the quality of writing of 'edgy' Christian fiction.
There does, however, appear to be a strong bias against certain subject material, even in the absence of ex..."
Thomas, I abhor the term "edgy" Christian Fiction. It's old and played out. It leaves a bad taste or confusion in many Christian readers minds. And in the general market it's laughable. They don't think there's anything edgy about edgy Christian fiction. So, it's a term that will work against writers.
I like Alternative Christian Fiction, like they use the term in the Alternative Music industry. It could be anything from folk to rock to pop. It's an attitude.
BTW...This group is going to be taken over by the GRACE AWARDS soon. I chair Grace, so I'll still be the moderator here.
"Why do you think then that the movie has been such a big hit amongst Christians?"I would guess it’s because pornography is a huge and still under-addressed problem in Christian marriages, and many women were relieved to see it addressed in this format and and wanted their husbands to watch the film and shape up, stilted acting and unbelievable sets or not. It's too bad the negative effects couldn't be addressed with more power and artistry.
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I would guess it’s because pornography is a huge and still under-addressed problem in Christian marriages, and ma..."
Skylar, Pornography is a huge issue in Christian marriages. The stats are ataggering. In Christian college a huge percentage of male students are into some type of porno. Many of them convince themselves it's not "real" sex so it's not sin. The problem is that it's addictive and what happens is that when they do marry, they find they're not getting the "charge" with their wives that they got with the porno. Or they find they can't function with their wives. Can't function with a real live woman. They can only function when engaged w/porno. It's highly addictive. It's a huge problem and does alter sex drive.
Another reason the movie was so popular was because churches pushed it. They showed on a Saturday night in the church, or talked it up and people went to see it or purchased the DVD.
Nike wrote: "Skylar wrote: ""Why do you think then that the movie has been such a big hit amongst Christians?"I would guess it’s because pornography is a huge and still under-addressed problem in Christian ma..."
Nike, so you have any references to back up your statement that pornography is a problem in Christian marriages? I hadn't heard this before.
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I would guess it’s because pornography is a huge and still under-addressed problem in..."
Elise, I've heard this on Christian TV over and over. There are stats (Barna group) that Christian guys in Christian colleges are into pornography in high percentages claiming it's not sex. Fooling themselves. It's highly addictive. Once a guy gets addicted he's going to take this into his marriage.
Mark Driscoll, pastor at Mars Hills Church in Seattle, spends a lot of time on pornography because he knows Christian men are addicted to it. They've been fooled into thinking it wasn't sex when they were single, so they got into it. He wrote a blatant, hard hitting, lengthy article on it and on prostitution use in the church. I read it. It was so hard hitting he put a caveat on it that unmarried women should not read it and married women should show it to their husbands first. He thinks its a problem in marriage and out of marriage in the church. He has a very high percentage of young professional, single and married men in his church. They're attracted to his hard hitting message.
This speaker says one of the top five questiosn he gets when speaking is about pornography in marriage.
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/marri...
I can't remember which Christian singer it was, but one of the popular ones went public about his additiction to porn. It's very pervasive in Christian families. There is a ministry dedicated to helping Christian men who are addicted to porn. If I can remember the name of the ministry I'll post it.
There are a growing number of ministries dedicated to teaching about and serving those struggling with porn addiction. Though various connections, I have been blessed to meet a number of men and women who have dedicated their entire ministries to addressing pornography and masterbation addiction among Christian men and women, expecially teenagers. Unfortunately, open discussions of Godly sexual behavior are still often rare among many families and faith fellowships. Many young men and women believe that, in the face of extensive lecturing on abstinance, pornography and masterbation are an appropriate way to address their urges.Though some of these same connections, I have had the blessing of also working with a number of Elders from various church fellowships across the country. Over the years, I have found their comments are sadly almost identical. As they serve in this modern age, they see pornography use as one of the most pervasive problems among God's people in these times. It greatly saddens me...
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One particul..."
I think Christian romantic fic and romantic suspense has a certain "feel" to it. There's a way of presenting the heroine so the reader gets right away that she's a good girl. For every transgression there has to be a penalty and/or the author in someway editorializes letting us know "that's bad."
Not all Christian writing has this, but I'd say more than half of it does. Don't hold me to that percent, but a lot, a lot does. And this is not good writing.
ABA writers are not hampered by these constrictions...self imposed, or otherwise.
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When I read reviews of Christian fiction on Amazon and even here...but a lot on Amazon...invariably the Christian reader puts first and foremost how glad they are the story is clean. By that they mean no sexuality. That's so often the very first thing. So, this is who Christian writers are writing for.
I know that Christians have passion when attracted to the opposite sex. Yet, that passion is not very often depicted in Christian novels. We don't the hero struggling with his testosterone.
Mod
Nike wrote: I know that Christians have passion when attracted to the opposite sex. Yet, that passion is not very often depicted in Christian novels. We don't the hero struggling with his testosterone. ..."Interesting that you should post this today, Nike (although it seems like a response to something not in this thread). I'm working on revisions to the sequel to my cozy mystery. The romantic subplot is strong in this book. Both my hero and heroine have scenes where they struggle with their sexual urges and I'm having difficulty figuring out where the line is between realistic and prurient.
I was surprised when a book blogger pointed out that the first book was "clean" because I didn't think it was as squeaky as most Christian fiction. I want to keep the same audience for the sequel, but I also want my characters to be human. I hope I can find the balance in the finished version of the story.
Nike wrote: "For Christian writers who want to be realistic and organic in their writing I think they have to work at building up their own readership - fan base. They have to spend time in the care and nurture..."This is true of all writers. A fan base is generally built one reader at a time.
Nike said: When I read reviews of Christian fiction on Amazon and even here...but a lot on Amazon...invariably the Christian reader puts first and foremost how glad they are the story is clean. By that they mean no sexuality. That's so often the very first thing. So, this is who Christian writers are writing for.I know that Christians have passion when attracted to the opposite sex. Yet, that passion is not very often depicted in Christian novels. We don't the hero struggling with his testosterone.
I actually find it annoying how Christians are emasculated in Christian fiction. I think that it's a huge issue for us to constantly deny our sexual urges and to write a fictional landscape where they don't exist.
I don't read Christian books for that. I read them because I want to read about people who acknowledge God in their lives and live lives in which He is a player and a mover in their actions.
I would like to see more Christian fiction where the door isn't closed.
Danielle, Agreed! That's what I tried to do with Spring For Susannah - to show how growing love and intimacy with God leads to growing love and intimacy within marriage. You can't close the door in a one-room sodhouse!
And God created sex, so when we act like it doesn't exist, we are giving Satan ownership over something that God created for the good of humanity.
Mod
I was trying to tie the "testosterone" issue in with Amazon reviews and how ABA writers handle things. They go for organic and don't worry about clean. There is however, a line in Christian fiction.
I hate to see a promo on Twitter and such "a clean read." I figure that's a book I'm not gonna want to read...if the "selling point" is that it's clean. I'm looking for an intricate plot, characters with depth.
Getting to the line. I think a cozy has a line further back than steamy romance and gritty mystery or thriller. That's especially true in Christian fiction. In ABA cozies (I'm thinking Mary Higgins Clark) people are popping in and out of bedrooms, kisses are depicted deeply and in detail, but there's no sex. Then she might not be considered a cozy writer, but more romantic suspense.
Carolyn Hart writes ABA cozies and there's also bed hopping and frankly deep kissing but it's not as prominent or as featured as in a Mary Higgins Clark book. I think if a Christian were to write a Mary Higgins Clark or Carolyn Hart-type story it would be labeled "edgy." The ABA reader would not know what we're talking about. They'd think we're crazy. That's how far apart the two definitions of edgy are.
To confuse things even more, you just got a "clean" notice on a novel you didn't think was squeaky clean by Christian standards. Well, I've noticed that "edgy" isn't so edgy anymore in a lot of Christian circles. What was edgy before is considered (by some) to be realism now. Christians live in a world where profanity is used around them every day. Christians have children who are promiscuous. I just answered a post on a readers thread (not on Goodread)from a Christian grandmother raised in the church whose daughter rebelled in HS and started acting promiscuously. The woman's medical doctor advised giving the girl birth control pills. This woman refused on the grounds of Christian belief and now is raising several grandkids. She said she should've put her daughter on birth control pills. She also said she doesn't see any characters like her in Christian fiction. I think life as it really is has changed things somewhat in Christian writing circles. There are still those, however, who want white picket fences in their fiction.
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I don't read Christian books for that. I read them because I want to read about people who acknowledge God in their lives and live lives in which He is a player and a mover in their actions.>>>>>
I'm not pushing my novel here, but in my last historical, the hero and heroine are kissing in the movies and he's getting aroused. The movie is the 1940s Rex Harrison romantic comedy where a symphony conductor is plotting to kill his cheating wife. I use the crescendo in the concert to show his physical state. He's been trying to protect the heroine in the story and in the theatre he thinks to himself the one he has to protect her from is himself. The reader can decide just how aroused he is. Some readers will think he's actually physically aroused on some level, others will think he's mentally turned on. And that's okay.
I think many Christian authors write heroes who are wimpy. Casper milquetoast. I like strong men. Strong men have testosterone. Strong men get turned on...so do weak men. Weak men just can't control those urges. Castrated men don't have urges and too many Christian male characters seem castrated.
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Catherine, I think there should be a lot more Christian marriage romances/women's fic. And that would include the bedroom. I don't think the door should close when the couple walks into the room either. We need depictions, in perhaps an allegorical way, of what joyous marital sex is about. Right now the only picture of sex we have in literature and media have been crafted by the devil. They're depictions of disengaged acrobatics...all gyration and body parts.
I've heard the issue of trouble in the Christian bedroom come up on the Joni Show, on the 700 club. Young Christian couples don't have a clue what to expect on their wedding night. It's scary, awkward, and even horrifying. It's shocking how many Christian marriage soon become sexless. Or the sex is just to have the kids and then they becomes sexless. A huge service Christian marriage romance stories can do is frankly discuss and depict (on some level) good, healthy sex within marriage. That would be sometimes tender (especially in the beginning) and sometimes a romp. Then it might get tender again and cuddly as couples age and have aches and pains.
Mod
That's right. We've given the enemy ownership of sex. How stupid is that?
Nike, I really appreciate your points about the issues with sex in Christian marriages because of people raised to believe they should not have a sex drive or any knowledge of their sexuality. I follow a blog that discusses a lot of these issues, and I was so grateful to find it. I've been a Christian since I was a young teen (12) and I've tried to live a lifestyle that honors God, but also deal with hormonal impulses and urges. It's real and we can't ignore that. It's a shame that people enter a marriage and can't feel comfortable about sexual union with their spouses. I have your first book and I intend to read the series. The 40s is one of my favorite historical period, so I'm excited to delve into your stories, especially since you write thriller/suspense novels and aren't afraid to 'get real' with the subject matter.
Mod
I keep the relationships to the era. But as they go on, the novels in the series get more steamy, but never overt. In book #2 I have a widower attracted to the heroine and he is definitely feeling something. In book #4 the hero is divorced and has been dating and admits he hasn't been a boy scout. The heroine is a widow.
I also deal with the social issues of discrimination against the new immigrants pouring in after WWII and those that came after WWI as well.
Mod
As far as sex in Christian marriage, I think it's a bigger problem than many want to admit.
I also think that many Christians feel unclean about their sexual urges and that's not admitted to. Christians just hide those urges and bear the shame.
Yeah, and I think a lot of that shame would be dispelled if Christian ministries were better at addressing sexuality instead of not talking about it at all.
Christians need to be courageous in addressing sexuality - the rewards are enormous! When sex was our topic in Sunday school, our church had the best attendance ever!
Hi, I am Linda and I have just finished self publishing 4 books that I call Christian Fiction Western Romance. There is no cursing in my books and there are references and quotes from the Bible when it pertains to a situation that a character is going through and prays about the situation in reference to living life as a good moral Christian. Example, virgin meets man of her dreams and has strong sexual desires for him and doesn't know how to resist the temptation. I am wondering how to market my books or where to market them. I have a website and use facebook. Is there a market out there for them? I think my books show how God brings men and women together that He wants together and they both know it is God. I believe the stories would be great reads for unmarried young adult Christians. Do I need to try to find someone to sell my books to churches, etc?
Am I suppose to put the names of my books?
They are found under my name Linda Krpec on Amazon.com
Linda wrote: "Hi, I am Linda and I have just finished self publishing 4 books that I call Christian Fiction Western Romance. There is no cursing in my books and there are references and quotes from the Bible whe...I am wondering how to market my books or where to market them. I have a website and use facebook. Is there a market out there for them? Do I need to try to find someone to sell my books to churches, etc?
Am I suppose to put the names of my books?"
Hi Linda,
When you're a self-publisher, it's your responsibility to sell and market your books. No one is going to do it for you.
You've taken the first step by posting here, so now there are some people (other than your friends and family) who know that your books exist. That's one of the hardest things to make happen.
Now you need to let more people know they're out there. One of the ways to do that is to do a Goodreads giveaway. http://www.goodreads.com/giveaway
You give away a print copy of your book in return for reader reviews. Few people want to buy a book that hasn't been reviewed by someone before them.
You might also want to join the Making Connections group here on Goodreads which is a place for self-pubbed authors to request reviews from one another and share what they've published.
You should consider publishing ebooks in addition to print books. Ebooks are easier to give away (other than in Goodreads giveaways, which must be print still) and the trend is for people to read more on ereaders and tablets than paper. Particularly since your books are POD and therefore relatively expensive for the number of pages, it's a good idea to have an inexpensive alternative format.
Book stores are resistant to carrying self-published books, especially those published by CreateSpace, since they consider Amazon their biggest competitor. This seems to be changing, so you might be able to arrange a signing at a local independent bookstore (but not Barnes and Noble) who will allow you to bring your own stock, which they will sell at the signing, but you'll have to pay for in advance and take remaining copies back home with you. Make friends with your local bookseller. :-)
There's a whole lot more to selling books than what I've said, but that would be a whole book in itself.
Good luck!
Linda wrote: "Hi, I am Linda and I have just finished self publishing 4 books that I call Christian Fiction Western Romance. There is no cursing in my books and there are references and quotes from the Bible whe..."Hi Linda, You might take a look at ACFW - American Christian Fiction Writers. They have a lot of resources for writers of Christian Fiction - both traditionally published and self-published. Take a look at their website ACFW.com and good luck with your books!
Mod
The Old Testament is very sexual. In that day they were an agricultural people. They had livestock. Everyone, even children knew explicitly about the birds and the bees.
I think a little frankness would go a long way today.
Mod
Linda, I saw the suggestion to take a look at ACFW. I'm a member there and it's great for it's critique groups for your future writing projects. It's great for free online classes and workshops. But it's not so great for marketing indie Christian novels. They have an approved list of CBA publishers and those are the only novels that can be chosen to be read by the ACFW bookclub or to be listed on their "novel search" site. This leaves out all indie published novels and all non approved small presses.
Go to the Grace Awards Facebook Group and join the group. You should have a FB personal page at the very least and a professional page for your books if possible. But at least one FB page which you will use 95% professionally. Anyway after your join the GA FB group you then get into the Marketing Chain. If you don't understand how, start a post and ask someone to explain it to you. Then you get other people to Tweet for you and in return you tweet for them...which means you need to have a Twitter account too which you use professionally 95% of the time. It's pretty near impossible to market as an indie author without a Twitter and FB account. Here is the link to the Grace Awards FB Group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/22863...
There is a Christian Indie Authors group on FB which is a closed group...just ask to join.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/11751...
The Faith and Grace Authors Group on FB is a marketing group. It's also closed and you need to ask to join.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/grace...
Another group to join is Christian Indie Novelist Yahoo group. I'm a member and find that helpful.
MOST IMPORTANT: You also need to have a blog. You need to organize a blog tour for each novel that comes out. I did an extensive blog tour for my first novel (about 40 stops on the tour) and it sold well. My second and third novels I had some family issues and was not able to do such an extensive blog tour (about 20 stops for each) and they sold less well. I kept publicizing all my novels and book #2 has picked up sales since. I guess readers who liked book #1 then bought #2.
Grace Filled Fiction Spotlight
Books mentioned in this topic
Addicted to Mediocrity: Contemporary Christians and the Arts (other topics)Sham Pearls for Real Swine: Beyond the Cultural Dark Age-A Quest for Renaissance (other topics)
