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Hard question. My gut feeling is coherency. A book should be readable. But there are many authors and fans of these authors that write more abstract. So a simple answer becomes more difficult to define. Mainly I ask for continuity. I love twists but not when they come out of nowhere without any order.I think we should expect a minimum of mistakes. Spelling and otherwise. Don't know how something works? Look it up.
I've been reading more sci-fi than fantasy lately and I do judge them differently. In fantasy if I don't like the characters no matter how brilliant the book might be it won't become a love. But with sci-fi I look to be blown away by ideas.
Short stories have to be quick. A set up and then bam a punch line. I don't like it when an author tries to make it into a mini book. It's not. Get in, get your point across, end. Novellas on the other hand can take their time and can be more of a mini book. But they should leave you wanting more.
Everything else is a matter of taste. For every idea someone doesn't like there's someone that does.
I expect the same from professional and indie writers but with less forgiveness. An indie writer can get by with a few mistakes. A professional writer backed by a professional editor better not have any.
Traci hit the nail in the head for most of what I was going to say. Coherency is the bottom line, and that includes grammar and writing style.One of my favourite authors Patricia A. McKillip, has some incredibly abstract novels that not everyone enjoys. It takes a lot of brain power, but they are comprehensible.
As for "ideas" I can't say that I would expect anything in particular. I tend to be harsh on the romance genre, because I never expect anything great out of it, so I'm always surprised when I do read something well put together.
I try very hard not to expect anything groundbreaking, I only hope that anything I pick up is enjoyable in some way (intellectually, humorously, etc.). As Traci said, this is subjective and a matter of taste.
But in terms of "skill", there are things that I find I just can't forgive as a reader. I recently read an indie-book that had a superfluous character. Now, who am I to make that call? The audience of the book, that's who. The character added nothing whatsoever to the story and was actually something of an anomaly and a distraction to the main action. It reminded me of an annoying pop up screen. It lowered my opinion of the story and the authors skill. If I can't enjoy my reading experience I'm not going to come back to read whatever else the author has or will write.
Well, the minimum you should expect from a professional writer is that the work has been adequately proofed. It should be relatively free of spelling, punctuation, and grammar mistakes.There are cases where these may be violated for artistic effect, but it should be clear from context that this is so.
Beyond that, much of what is good/bad is subjective. In general, be clear in your opinions and why you found them to be the case.
Traci wrote: "Hard question. My gut feeling is coherency. A book should be readable. But there are many authors and fans of these authors that write more abstract. So a simple answer becomes more difficult to de..."I agree with everything you said, though I bristle a little at being too forgiving of typos or worse--actually not understanding the basic rules of grammar, punctuation, spelling, and usage--from indie authors. Once you sell your book, even for only 99 cents, you've stopped just being an author and become, for better or worse, a publisher. If you're asking people for money, and they give it to you, you're a professional. You have to learn your craft. No exceptions.
Philip, I'd forgive a few mistakes from an indie writer but not one who has a mistake every other page.
Robert wrote: "Well, the minimum you should expect from a professional writer is that the work has been adequately proofed. It should be relatively free of spelling, punctuation, and grammar mistakes.There are ..."
I can see what you're saying...but do you mean proofed as in "spell checked" or proofed as in "being looked over by an actual copy editor? Cause I think of them as completely different.
Proofreading is...so basic as to be shocking when it doesn't happen. Copy-editing on the other hand...is desperately needed but not always found.
Traci wrote: "Hard question. My gut feeling is coherency. A book should be readable. But there are many authors and fans of these authors that write more abstract. So a simple answer becomes more difficult to de..."I agree SO much on the consistency! It's key. That + editing. Yet so often now we see authors putting out works with lack of polish. And anger attached to honest reviews. I just don't know anymore. I do know that pretty soon I think I will stop reading self-pubbed books...just because I can't bother with getting pass the crap that's not edited. Beyond proofreading. It's so much of it that it drives me crazy.
MrsJoseph wrote: "...but do you mean proofed as in "spell checked" or proofed as in "being looked over by an actual copy editor?"By an actual copy editor. Preferably a disinterested professional and not a friend, spouse, etc.
Should at least hit the basics mentioned. Would be nice if some common sense fact checking was done and they had an eye for inconsistencies.
What, John Belushi died in 1982, not 1932? In chapter 1 I say the house is on the north side of the street, and in chapter 11 it's on the west side? I switch spellings of character and place names? Is all that really important? LOL
Some few minor mistakes may slip by. I see very few perfectly copy edited books. Some are WAY closer than others.
And that first example. Actually happened in a recent ABC News .com story. You should see the comments section. Us sticklers for, oh, correct facts in a news story came out in force.
I think my expectations vary with the kind of book I read to some degree. Each genre has different standards and I do want those to adhere to the basics of those genres. But here are my consistent expectations.1. A product that is well-written, and edited and packaged professionally. I will freely admit that my standards are slightly lower on the last part when it comes to self-pub and small press. I think it is an issue of resources. I want the writer to have done their best, however. I have found errors in NY times publisher books as well, so I don't throw out the baby with the bathwater if I find a few errors.
2. A coherent story that feels like the author put some time and energy into writing it.
3. I don't expect to like every book I read. I don't expect to love every book I read or to fall in love with it. I just want a few hours where I am immersed in the story and not bored or disconnected.
That's about it.
I can't say there's a particular style to expect from a professional writer, but I believe any book should be edited, and have like Danielle says, a coherent story line (I almost put compelling but that's subject to a person's taste). In fact I agree with much of what the Huntress says.I've fallen in love with books that people ripped. I loved ADWD, it's up for Hugo but if you look on Amazon, it has as an average rating of 2.9. Imagine that.
As long as I'm not slammed with tons of grammatical errors, Deus Ex Machina, and the author gives me some good characters and great world-building (I'm such a huge fan of world-building)I can usually go along.
I hope you do continue to read some self-pubbed works. After all, I just sent an email to your site. :)
From the other side:I'm paranoid at getting my punctuation and spelling correct to the extent that I start questioning everything and see things that are not there (drives my hubby nuts). However many times a manuscript is read something always slips through. I've even found things in mine after they have been professionally copy edited. I'm also guilty of adding one or two important last minute changes that may not be so thoroughly checked. Then there are the professionally made typos that occur when the edited manuscript is corrected!
I hope reviewers don't just pick up on the only spelling mistake, typo, etc but concentrate on the more important elements of the story like characters and plot. Of course, if there are lots of mistakes then that's different - I sometimes find reviews hard to read with all the spelling mistakes! I also agree with lots of the other comments here: correct facts, consistency and coherency are all important.
Now I'm worrying if I've made any errors here! Where's a proofreader when you need one?
I have read some really good cheap cheap self published ebooks. And some really crappy ones. Ultimately, the publishing business exists to make sure grammar and spelling errors are eliminated. If a book lacks basic editing or reasonable paragraph structure (I don't mean "abstract"--I mean topic sentence), then I don't find it worth reading at all. I don't mean one error--some books have many. Why should I pay someone to read that? Friends and parents read that and encourage the writers to "finish it." I do not think a Goodreads review should have the same expectations. If I were publishing a review in a journal people purchase, then yes, it should meet the same expectation. I also do not have the same expectation of "fan fiction" or free, shared stuff on the internet.
Mrs. Joe, I saw this topic, and, boy, did I want to join in because I read a lot and like books and...unfortunately, I can't think of anything. I agree with everything the posts above say, though to me a lot of it is sort of a Minimum Standard of professionalism. Of course I expect a minimum Standard of professionalism. That seems too much of a no-brainer (and yes, in my profession I have surely learned that "no-brainers" actually require a brain and often need pointing out no matter how common the good sense should be).
Other than that, I'm not sure. I want something new, not necessarily a completely new idea, (how many of those are there left? ) but something new in the expression, the art, the writing the plot, twists... I don't want a clone of the last popular book or a clone of a book that was popular in my youth, and the author thought I might have forgotten. Surely things will be similar. I just don't want to recognize those works that inspired the ideas on the first read.
Robert wrote: "By an actual copy editor. Preferably a disinterested professional and not a friend, spouse, etc.Should at least hit the basics mentioned. Would be nice if some common sense fact checking was done and they had an eye for inconsistencies.
What, John Belushi died in 1982, not 1932? In chapter 1 I say the house is on the north side of the street, and in chapter 11 it's on the west side? I switch spellings of character and place names? Is all that really important? LOL
Some few minor mistakes may slip by. I see very few perfectly copy edited books. Some are WAY closer than others.
And that first example. Actually happened in a recent ABC News .com story. You should see the comments section. Us sticklers for, oh, correct facts in a news story came out in force."
Exactly. I want to see this SO MUCH. So much!
I am not a big stickler for grammar and spelling. Well I am but I'm not. If the story is good enough that I get emerged...then I'm happy and I can look past the bad writing and spelling. But if the story is awkwardly written and/or is so bad that I start paying attention to sentence structure...well that means that the war has already been lost and I'm just in a few left over skirmishes.
Annette wrote: "I hope reviewers don't just pick up on the only spelling mistake, typo, etc but concentrate on the more important elements of the story like characters and plot. Of course, if there are lots of mistakes then that's different - I sometimes find reviews hard to read with all the spelling mistakes! I also agree with lots of the other comments here: correct facts, consistency and coherency are all important."Each reader/reviewer is different. For me, it depends on where the word is and how badly it's being murdered. If it's something that makes me drop out of the story and go "huh?" then it's a problem and it bugs me. If it's minor I tend to ignore it.
When I was in theatre my director made a big deal about staying in character no matter what happened. While making common sense decisions. Someone drops a prop? Pick it up...but not in a way that jars your audience! If you leave the prop (or misspelled word) in a place that is prominent...then expect your audience to stare at that prop the entire time and ignore the show. If the prop is picked up but by someone who's character wouldn't be interested....you've still jarred your audience. Creating a fictional world and making it stick is rather difficult...at all times you have to be aware that the house of cards can come crashing down.
I know it's slightly different but... I hate those shows that nit pick things that have been missed when editing films and TV programmes. You never notice them when you first watch it but after the show you can't help but see it, spoiling your 'suspencion of disbelief'!
Some great posts here - makes me want to go 'me too'! Not much I can add. I don't mind a few typos - if I notice a lot of them, I'll mention them in a review, and they do look unprofessional, but they rarely stop me reading a book. And it depends on the type - one book I read, there were lots of bad reviews grumbling about typos, even things like character names changing mid-paragraph. Well, I'd never even noticed! I had to go back and check. On the other hand, if an author writes 'It's appearance peaked her interest...', that will have me foaming at the mouth ;-) But if the story's good, I'll keep reading... It's only blatant grammatical errors that would make me give up. I do expect a basic knowledge of the English language.What does interfere with my enjoyment is what I think of as over-writing, where the author seems to be trying too hard or throws in too much extraneous detail. Like this: 'The tall marine biologist tossed her mane of red hair and glared at the room full of oil-covered sweating mechanics, her green eyes flashing imperiously.' You know, stuff that sounds like the writer's on their first creative writing course. One book I failed to read started with several chapters detailing how each character got to the meeting point - every bus, train, plane, ferry AND what each of them had to eat on the way. And all before the story proper got under way. Yes, the author had done his/her research, but I didn't need to know all that. So less is definitely more, for me anyway.
One thing I do expect from a book, though, is sensible formatting. One historical fiction work had big swirly letters at the start of each paragraph, and it really annoyed me. And I won't read badly formatted ebooks - it's just too much work. Even the professionals get this wrong sometimes.
Leaving aside competent editing and proofing, what should a reader expect from any book? As to fiction, what I think is a minimum is:* An interesting, unusual character who is sympathetic in some way (that doesn't mean perfect)
* A story in which something interesting happens -- in other words, good entertainment value
* A degree of suspense
* A satisfying ending
I could add others, but this is generally what is a requirement for me.
For me, it is an engaging story. Everything else is negotiable.
Donna wrote: "Leaving aside competent editing and proofing, what should a reader expect from any book? As to fiction, what I think is a minimum is:* An interesting, unusual character who is sympathetic in som..."
This is it for me too, especially the ending.
All books have problems. I was reading The Demon's Surrender, the third book in a trilogy. I don't know about the print copies, but the ebook had a few spelling errors. I don't really care about that as a reader. The most important thing to me is that I enjoy the story. Does it make sense? Did the writer tie up loose ends? Do I love the characters?
In thinking about some things...*Info dumping. We hates it, don't we my precioussss?
There are ways to get info without dumping. But, if infodumping is required...do it in a creative way, please. Eddings' idea of Holy Books was almost pure genius.
There's an extent to which I am more gentle with self-published works than books from publishing houses. There may be a level of polish or perspective that is missing, a stylistic choice here or there, for instance. Poor punctuation can't be tolerated from someone who espouses themselves to be a "writer," though. I'd even go farther than that, to say that shitty writing is still shitty writing, whether it comes from a self-publisher or Tor.
I think a good book needs to have a story (or content in general) that keeps the reader interested, pleased and enjoying the work.
Nontheless, needs to have a decent design/punctuation, grammatic,and spell checking.
However, there are some authors, like me, who are from other countries and their native languages have a very different grammatical structure. That is an easy way for having mispells in the text, even if it is reviewed/edited.
Nontheless, needs to have a decent design/punctuation, grammatic,and spell checking.
However, there are some authors, like me, who are from other countries and their native languages have a very different grammatical structure. That is an easy way for having mispells in the text, even if it is reviewed/edited.
There are so many things wrong with this book from lack of punctuation, lack of capitalization, lack of descriptive prose…the list goes on and on. I literally could not finish it.
What this has made me think about is…
…what should I expect [as a reader] from any book – self-published or not?
Should I expect something different from sci-fi than I do for fantasy? Short stories vs. novellas vs novel length?
Characterization of women vs men? Treatment of sexuality? Alien rights?...
Is there a specific thing/idea/writing style that I should expect from a “professional” writer?