The Not-So Austen Bookclub discussion
Bookworm Debates
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Chivalry ~ Alive, Dead or Napping?
Mod
Sadly i think things have changed a lot over the years since the days of Jane Austen, when men & women were reserved, showed decorum and everything was all 'hush, hush' (if you get ..."
Firstly - stop apologising!! I feel the EXACT same way (no offence to anyone else - oops!) and I adore what others may call the 'old fashioned' ideals of courtship. The relationship was about seeing the other person and knowing them. Today, a lot of relationships are cheapened. Do you think guy characters effect women's views of men?
Mod
I would hate to upset anyone with my quite singular views, but i have come from quite a victorian upbringing & a family who belives in the old fashioned ways. My mother was brought ..."
Oh my gosh - same here! My mother was brought up the exact same way, as well as with the belief that a woman had to make sacrifices in the marriage, sometimes even when the man did not. To me, in the 21st century, that sounds so unfair! But obviously, from their perspective, a woman is a peacekeeper and needs to make the marriage work.
Also, thanks for your input in the Victorian roleplay! It's so much fun and I think it's really starting to come together!
Booknut:D
Mod
The Jane Austen roleplay is really fun but i do not think that my writing is as good as yours; in fact i am finding it quite difficult. I love the Austen character that i have c..."
I'll have to read it!!! I will admit I loved Austenland by Shannon Hale - it was hilarious and sometimes Jane Hayes reminds me of myself!!:D
Mod
Your book 'Austenland' sounds like a dream (i think that someone should also write other similar books too, such as 'Potterland'?!) and i will defiantely add it to my to-read list &..."
Potterland!!! I'll get on it straight away!! *opens a Word Document* Jokes! But seriously, that would be awesome!
I think that chivalry is an admirable quality, that is a rare thing nowadays.The main obstacle is - guys don't have the guts to be chivalrous. They think that if they are to do something nice and sweet, they will make a fool of themselves so they prefer to be sit up there, without moving a finger.
And most of them think that it is pointless to do something nice because it is stupid and we women won't appreciate it.
So, yes, I totally think that guys from books set a too high standard for real men.
I mean, come on, men in books are perfect, even with their flaws. Their flaws always make them singular and unforgettable. And there's almost always a higher purpose in the not so good things they do or a noble goal that they need to reach so we forgive them for the not so good things they say or do. They almost never do something bad for the simple will of their hearts.
It is so not fair for us, female readers! I tell you, it is a trap for us. We are here, reading obsessively about these guys and then we go out and we think that guys out there act the same and feel the same way the guys we so passionately read about. But no!
Guys in books are so perfect because they are a creation of some woman's mind. Only a woman knows what other women want so a woman creates perfectly the guy that she knows every other woman will love.
Every single guy from a book is just a variation of an universal image that every single one of us have of the perfect guy.
*Sigh* And I go crazy because I fervently wish that some of the guys from books were real...
Lucinda wrote: "Dear Lucy, Your comments and thoughts above are so true and honestly when is a woman going to really meet a Mr. Darcy?! no one is ever *perfect*.
Lucinda Xx"
Dear Lucinda,
Thank you so much for your opinion on my thoughts. I honestly mean everything I said.
No one will ever meet a perfect Mr Darcy because, like you said, no one is perfect and Mr Darcy is only a projection of our desires.
Lucy
XXO
Mod
Your comments and thoughts above are so true and honestly when is a woman going to really meet a Mr. Darcy?! no one is ever *perfect*.
Lucinda Xx"
Dear Lucinda,
Thank..."
Dear Lucy,
I totally agree with you! It's a big alluring trap for us females, but I think its the kind of trap we purposely fall into if you know what I mean? I mean, every girl likes to read a book that put into perspective the kind of 'ideal guy' she dreams about. When they read books about real-life sounding guys who are jerks, the feeling just isn't the same.
Know why?! This is my theory - it's fake life! books are fake life, and I can't stand when people go "But that isn't realistic!" because I say "Well duh!" Books are fake life, and if I wanted to read/know about real life I could sit at my window and watch the street outside!
I think Mr Darcy and other such characters are projections of female desires, but they also clue men into the fact women LIKE romance, and women like when guys show a sensitive side. So guys go "She likes that Darcy character...why? Because he told the girl he loved her. Easy enough to do." But I still think it is a terrible thing for women to try and make guys live up to their ideals, as women are always complaining that guys expect too much from women - the way we have to dress, walk, appear. Maybe both sides should lower their ideals and concentrate on caring about the other person!
But overall, I think chivalry is a wonderful thing and that it should however be interpreted differently and acted out differently in the 21st century.
:D
Booknut wrote: "Lucy wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Dear Lucy, Your comments and thoughts above are so true and honestly when is a woman going to really meet a Mr. Darcy?! no one is ever *perfect*.
Lucinda Xx"
Dear ..."
Totally agreed!
Guys from books are a huge alluring trap in which we willingly fall into.
We only love books where the guy fits in our mental picture of "perfectness". If they act in a way we consider bad, we don't like the guy.
Like me, for example. Will Herondale didn't act in a way for me to associate him with my image of the ideal guy.
Now, he fits better but still, I feel like he has to make amends.
And yes, what happens in books is all fake so there's no point in saying that some books are unrealistic.
When I read a book, it is because I am too tired of real life and I want some magic, you know?? Some sparkle of delight!
I totally agree when you say that men like Mr Darcy are a clue that points to the fact that we love romance and men with a sensitive side.
And yes, we shouldn't put up such a high standard, neither should they.
We are humans therefore we are not flawless, thus, there is no point in pretending that we are perfect or that we can be perfect or that we can have someone perfect.
But yes, chivalry doesn't kill anyone ;D
Booknut wrote: "Lucy wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Dear Lucy, Your comments and thoughts above are so true and honestly when is a woman going to really meet a Mr. Darcy?! no one is ever *perfect*.
Lucinda Xx"
Dear ..."
Oh my gosh, Booknut, I totally agree with you. I hate when people complain that books are not realistic. It drives me crazy. For example, I remember after Breaking Dawn came out, people were upset because it had a happy ending and how unrealistic it was. I thought, "you're reading a book about a love triangle between a human girl and a vampire and a werewolf and you're upset because the ending didn't seem realistic? What part of the book did seem realistic?" :) haha And you're right again, if i wanted to read about real life, I would watch the news or read the newspaper. Books are there to get lost in, to escape to another world, to read about amazing things and happily ever afters and grand adventures. At least in my opinion.
Also, I believe chivalry is wonderful but I'm a bit old fashioned. :)
Mod
Your comments and thoughts above are so true and honestly when is a woman going to really meet a Mr. Darcy?! no one is ever *perfect*.
Luc..."
One girl once commented that Twilight was better than Harry Potter because it was based in reality.
...
Ok. Because, you know, werewolves and vampires are a hell of a lot more realistic than a school for magical kids. Mm hmm. Yep. :D
I think that there is less chivalry than there used to be but it is not gone. It's harder to find a guy who will open the door for you or pull out your chair, but there are a slim few who still do. Books have given me a standard for sure but I don't think it's unrealistic. I think having guys in books to look for is a good thing. It gives girls a standard and that's good because if you don't have high standards it can be too easy to fall for someone who is not a very good guy. So yes, I believe chivalry still exists, and yes, I want it to.
Lauren wrote: "Well said, Olivia!"Thank you:)
Oh my God! guys u r all amazing!!! and I'm helluva late here.. Didn't even see the discussion. :( CHIVALRY! That thorny issue that gets me into fights with my friends over and over again. They just can't imagine that such a guy is somewhere out there.
But hey, listen to this: Those characters in books we love, aren't they based on real guys/men that the author heard of/read about or maybe even met in real life?! If such a guy lived on this Earth once, why not hope we'll find him again???
There's still hope u know. You don't have to turn into a vampire, or hold a magic wand, or even get kidnapped by faerie (Booknut?? knock knock :D)
Booknut & Luncinda: WOW (big wow)ur discussion up there was... what? can't even find the right word. it was amazing and impressive and... and wow :)
And I think that marriage is an expression of true love. By getting married to that special someone (and he doesn't have to be a superhero, just someone who truly loves and appreciates you) you say to the world: Look, I'm damn serious! This is the guy I want to spend my life with. No fooling around! :)
Lucy wrote: "I tell you, it is a trap for us. We are here, reading obsessively about these guys and then we go out and we think that guys out there act the same and feel the same way the guys we so passionately read about. But no!"wow, true. But it's important not to fall in the trap!
"Every single guy from a book is just a variation of an universal image that every single one of us have of the perfect guy."
and yes, this one is also true. Only a woman knows... *sigh*
Booknut wrote: " "Well duh!" Books are fake life, and if I wanted to read/know about real life I could sit at my window and watch the street outside! "*eyes wide & nods in agreement*
but u know what?? life in books is not really fake. it's a reflection of real life, or a life like an author wishes it to be.
"She likes that Darcy character...why? Because he told the girl he loved her. Easy enough to do."
well yes, that's part of it. but I think it's also because he cared enough for her to do everything he did (which is not easy btw)
Olivia wrote: "I think having guys in books to look for is a good thing. It gives girls a standard and that's good because if you don't have high standards it can be too easy to fall for someone who is not a very good guy. "now this one Olivia, this one is 100% amazing (ur opinion i mean) SO TRUE!!! or how else could one tell the difference between who's worth it and who's not?!
a big bunch of comments in this one topic (red face) but oh, i was so late!!
Lucinda wrote: "Dear Becca,I am quite a pessimistic person when it comes to relationships..."
so sorry Lucinda, but I was on a roll and missed this comment :D :D
Well, I believe that in this BIIIIIG world there's still hope for knights (not necessarily in shiny armors) so don't let one opinion, or one experience -no matter how big or hard (and sometimes it can be hard)- let you down.
Experiences make us stronger and more aware of life :)
Becca wrote: "Olivia wrote: "I think having guys in books to look for is a good thing. It gives girls a standard and that's good because if you don't have high standards it can be too easy to fall for someone wh..."Thank you:)
Becca wrote: "a big bunch of comments in this one topic (red face) but oh, i was so late!!"*laughs* i always end up doing that!!! hehe but it's kinda fun :)
Booknut wrote: "One girl once commented that Twilight was better than Harry Potter because it was based in reality....
Ok. Because, you know, werewolves and vampires are a hell of a lot more realistic than a school for magical kids. Mm hmm. Yep. :D "
*choked laughter* haha!!! i'll i can say to that girl is wooowwwwwwww.
Becca wrote: "Olivia wrote: "I think having guys in books to look for is a good thing. It gives girls a standard and that's good because if you don't have high standards it can be too easy to fall for someone wh..."i couldn't agree more!!!!!
Olivia wrote: "I think that there is less chivalry than there used to be but it is not gone. It's harder to find a guy who will open the door for you or pull out your chair, but there are a slim few who still do.Books have given me a standard for sure but I don't think it's unrealistic. I think having guys in books to look for is a good thing. It gives girls a standard and that's good because if you don't have high standards it can be too easy to fall for someone who is not a very good guy. So yes, I believe chivalry still exists, and yes, I want it to. "
i agree with this so much!!! that is my belief too! i think that chivalry still exists..it just isn't very common anymore which is very unfortunate in my opinion!
Anna wrote: "Olivia wrote: "I think that there is less chivalry than there used to be but it is not gone. It's harder to find a guy who will open the door for you or pull out your chair, but there are a slim fe..."It is definitely very unfortunate...
Olivia wrote: "I think that there is less chivalry than there used to be but it is not gone. It's harder to find a guy who will open the door for you or pull out your chair, but there are a slim few who still do...."that's really true!
Lucinda wrote: "Where oh where is Mr. Darcy?!"Ah good question! ;)
Mod
Ah good question! ;)"
Probably with Lizzie Bennet :( We shall have to search for our knight in shining armour elsewhere, girls!!
Booknut wrote: "Anna wrote: "Lucinda wrote: "Where oh where is Mr. Darcy?!"Ah good question! ;)"
Probably with Lizzie Bennet :( We shall have to search for our knight in shining armour elsewhere, girls!!"
Haha Dang it!
Isn't so sad that there seems to be no gentlemen anymore? I agree with Lucinda. Now days, most people act cheap and somewhat vulgar. And yes, I think books aggrandize guys by making them the epitomy of gorgeous manliness, but hey, is it really any fun to read if they aren't? (Haha!) Most writers do give there guys faults though.
Mod
And yes, I think books aggrandize guys by making them the epito..."
Very true! I know (personally) that I like to read of guys that give their jackets to the girl when she shivers, inquire after her family, play with her siblings, is not afraid to mingle with her friends and allows the relationship to progress at an easy, nice pace and doesn't force his feelings on the girl. :D
It's so hard to find those kinds of guys. We find 'em in the classics and books. But never in real life!Our society is messed up.
Booknut wrote: "Anne wrote: "Isn't so sad that there seems to be no gentlemen anymore? I agree with Lucinda. Now days, most people act cheap and somewhat vulgar. And yes, I think books aggrandize guys by making t..."
Ohhhh sounds like the perfect guy!
Mod
And yes, I think books aggrandize ..."
*laughs* Yep. All we need is to add the 'Will Herondale' element!
What book is Will Herondale from? Everyone keeps talking about him and I have no idea where he is from!
Eva wrote: "What book is Will Herondale from? Everyone keeps talking about him and I have no idea where he is from!"The Infernal Devices by Cassandra Clare:) They are amazing books and I love Will:)
Olivia wrote: "Eva wrote: "What book is Will Herondale from? Everyone keeps talking about him and I have no idea where he is from!"The Infernal Devices by Cassandra Clare:) They are amazing books and I love Will:)"
What is it about?
Lucy wrote: "I think that chivalry is an admirable quality, that is a rare thing nowadays.The main obstacle is - guys don't have the guts to be chivalrous. They think that if they are to do something nice and ..."
Again, someone says everything to be possibly said on this topic. You nailed it!
Booknut wrote: "Anna wrote: "Booknut wrote: "Anne wrote: "Isn't so sad that there seems to be no gentlemen anymore? I agree with Lucinda. Now days, most people act cheap and somewhat vulgar. And yes, I think book..."
Oh wow, now he is TRUELY the PERFECT guy!!!!
Olivia wrote: "Eva wrote: "What book is Will Herondale from? Everyone keeps talking about him and I have no idea where he is from!"The Infernal Devices by Cassandra Clare:) They are amazing books and I love Will:)"
Yes! Yes! Yes! I HIGHLY recommend them!!!
Mod
I made up a FULL explanation page for Will for those who don't know of him :D
Booknut wrote: "http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...I made up a FULL explanation page for Will for those who don't know of him :D"
Booknut, this is brilliant!!!! :)
Mod
I made up a FULL explanation page for Will for those who don't know of him :D"
Booknut, this is brilliant!!!! :)"
*smiles*
Booknut wrote: "To all the girl bookworms out there (and any guys, if you're brave enough!): Do you think chivalry still exists? Do you WANT it to? And do you believe in the belief that all the perfect (or m..."
Just have to say I loveee Easy A!!! Such a funny movie!
Anna wrote: "Booknut wrote: "To all the girl bookworms out there (and any guys, if you're brave enough!): Do you think chivalry still exists? Do you WANT it to? And do you believe in the belief that all t..."
It is a fantastic movie! I love it!
Olivia I love your profile picture!
To all the girl bookworms out there (and any guys, if you're brave enough!): Do you think chivalry still exists? Do you WANT it to? And do you believe in the belief that all the perfect (or mostly perfect) guy characters are written by other women, based on a universal ideal image of men by women which other women compare men to?
In simple words, do you think book guys set a too high standard for real guys in our minds?
Your thoughts below!:D