"Wild Seed" Full Discussion *spoilers*

[whimsicalmeerkat]

See the title. Discuss. That is all.

(I know, I know, I'm the worst mod ever, but you really have to blame my job. Even this is being typed in the car at risk of a ticket.)

[Julia]

Thanks Denae, and please don't text and drive and between Sarah Pi & I we'll get some more questions up here.

So what do you think? I find the middle compelling and fascinating. Why do think Anyanwu didn't chose to live out the next 100 years of her life as a dolphin?

Which, if any, of her powers would you chose to have?

[Julia]

I think I'd want to be a healer.

[Banner]

I would switch between a dolphin and an eagle. I would have like to know a little more about the dolphin community. I thought that was a highlight of the book.

[Ashley]

I'm interested to know how people feel about some of the taboo themes of the book.

[Michael]

Are you guys reviewing the entire series or just the first book?

[Sarah]

Just the first book.

[Michael]

Ah okay. I liked the first book. Anyawu is quite stuck up and it sometimes seems that Doro, even though his actions are quite evil is the sympathetic one. I'd much rather have her powers though. Shape changing would be too much fun.

[Julia]

I need you to tell me why and how you find Doro sympathetic, Michael.

And I've recently reread Mind of My Mind, but didn't go further in the series, because I hated Clay's Ark & Patternmaster when I first read then fifteen or twenty years ago almost as strongly I as I loved this one.

[Michael]

I guess Doro is a sympathetic character because he is written with a sense of loneliness and damage. He seems to be trying to reach out and make family and connections but keeps failing. His son more or less tells Anyawu this (can't remember his name the one who flies and is telekenetic). He pushes the burden onto her to keep Doro somewhat human but that just makes me feel sorry for him.

I hated Clay's ark and patternmaster too when I first read them, probably because they were so pessimistic about the future of humanity and the idea we'll all be slaves again is not nice reading. Also, they don't have Doro or Anyawu so that's no good.

[Julia]

Oh yes, there are moments when one is supposed to feel sympathy for Doro. It's about shades of gray. But I gotta say he's one of the most vile, monstrous villians I can think of in fiction.

As I recall, and it's not much, it seemed like all the characters had Doro's worst qualities by Patternmaster. That was Butler's first novel. Later novels of hers, while they have bleak settings, also involve hope and beauty amid the squalor. (I'm thinking here of Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Talents)

[Casey]

I was trying to explain Wild Seed to my S.O. tonight. He said "So... it's like a colonial X-men?" Hahahaha....

What is the order of this series? It seems like she wrote them out of sequence? I'm trying to figure out which book to read next, after I finish Wild Seed.

[Gage]

Michael wrote: "I guess Doro is a sympathetic character because he is written with a sense of loneliness and damage. He seems to be trying to reach out and make family and connections but keeps failing. His son ..."

I agree with Michael that Doro is most certainly a sympathetic character, seemingly damged beyond repair. I understood it as he had to develop this cold interior and exterior as a means to hold on to his sanity amidst his murderous nature. Indeed, the main theme of the book rests on the attempts of Anyanwu and Issac to help him regain a sense of humanity in spite of his nature.

I thought the author did an good job of detailing the changes that overcame the characters, specifically Anyanwu and Doro (and Thomas and Issac to some extent). I was very much anticipating a suicide pact at the end. It seemed that Anyanwu might have learned a way to contain Doro's spirit and then end both of their lives.

On another note, I loved the biological look at shape shifting (the dolphin part was WAY cool), especially how Anyanwu could synthesize medicines within herself.

Wild Seed = A very worthwhile read.

[Michelle]

Julia, i'm going to interpret your comments as you NOT finding Doro sympathetic, and i have to agree fully. we're let into his head periodically, and given glimpses of his intentional, purposeful deception - he has a very specific design here, and zero qualms about using everyone in any way he wishes. he actively tries to seduce and threaten Anyanwu into loving him and staying with him, though he believes he'll only get to breed her a couple of times before the necessity of killing her comes up. he uses everyone as disposable things like tissues. yes, he's broken and flawed, and the people that love him (like his son, Anyanwu's eventual husband) see the possibility of him being guided to a humane future, but the character we get in the here-and-now is absolutely psychopathic.

[Michael]

Casey after Wild Seed you should read Mind of my mind. I forget the publication order and which order she wrote the books but that's the one that follows Wild Seed in the story. I definitely agree with Michelle as to why the later two in the series are lesser books. I'd stop at mind of my mind.
Michelle you've also convinced me slightly about Doro. His POV parts do seem completely inhuman and maybe it's everybody else who can't seem to accept that projecting humanity onto him. Yet; he does give Anyawu lots of chances where you feel he would have killed anybody else. He does feel something there even if he's lying to himself.

[Michelle]

i have the 4-book omnibus version of this series, and after the first one had to dive right into 'mind of my mind'. it was an interesting continuation of the goals & concepts from 'wild seed', and i think you need the first one right before it to make sense of Doro & Anwanyu and who they've become. i did put it down after that one, though, so no telling how the last 2 in the series compare...

Michael, yes, Doro gives her way more chances than he ever has with anyone else, and a lot of times you can feel that his internal monologue on those decisions is him convincing himself that it's just because of her value as a broodmare. kind of a case of "protesting too much" and all, so yes, there's definitely something else under there. but he's still a horrible creature.

[A.D.]

This is a long post but I really have so much to say about this book, it was just so different from a lot of books that I’ve read.
Doro was definitely one of the most awful characters I’ve ever come across in a book. I think the only part of the book in which he seemed even remotely human to me was in the scene when Anyanwu killed Lale. He came across as a bit sad and weary at what Lale had planned to do to Anyanwu. But otherwise I couldn’t empathise with him at all, even at the end when he allowed himself to be vulnerable. I also thought that Anyanwu gave in to him too easily by letting him pimp her out like that. She seemed so strong and sure about her beliefs on abominations that I never thought she would let herself be used like that. The part with Thomas was really horrible. I wasn’t sympathetic to Thomas at first, but got to like him and what Doro did was really horrible.

Overall, the book speaks volumes about slavery and Doro is probably the worst kind of slaver there is. The part of the book which really spoke volumes about Doro and the people around him was on page 180 when they’re talking about Nweke and Isaac says:

“ ‘...She’s such a small thing – so like Anyanwu.’
‘Even smaller,’ Doro said. He looked at at Isaac, smiled as though at some secret joke.”

It was just so cringy. And the fact that Isaac (who was my favourite character) was so accepting about the fact that Doro had not only slept with someone Isaac had raised as a daughter, but let him make such a crude comment about it really speaks volumes about the fact that people don’t really have an innate sense of whats moral and immoral, or that if they do, they ignore it and just accept what they’re told is right and wrong. We all think that incest and slavery is wrong, but if we had been brought up in a society that saw it as acceptable, how many of us would disagree even if we felt it was wrong?

I really wish that I’d found Goodreads earlier as its introducing me to so many new books and authors. I didn’t know that there was a sequel to Wild Seed, but I will definitely be reading it to see where the author takes it.

[Michael]

Hmm, I don't know where Doro ranks among some of the more evil characters I've read. Any number of detective books usually pit the hero against some kinda of Buffalo Bill type serial killer and the authors usually spend time telling us the killers wicked twisted thoughts too. But in fantasy/scifi? The list is legion. Quinn Dexter from Nights Dawn trilogy and the Pannion Seer from the Malazan books are pretty horrid. So too are Jagang and Darken Rahl from the sword of truth books.

I could go on and on. I mean Doro is a slaver of humans. And he breeds people to be slaves which is very detestable. He even decides who is going to marry whom like how people breed cattle. He wants his special traits. The slavery narrative is strong here. The logical way he rationalises this is opposed to the sadistic glee and joy which we associate with villains in genre books and maybe that's an aspect of what makes him more disturbing.

[A.D.]

I think I’ll have a look at some of those books you’ve mentioned. And I agree, the fact that he’s so logical and detached about the evil he does is probably what makes him so bad in my eyes.

[Gage]

Definitely Quinn Dexter from Night's Dawn is way more awful than Doro. Jagang and Darken Rahl are awful, too. These men tortured their victims much more severely than Doro. As I recall, Darken Rahl even had a corps of women whose only job was to torture. Just saying...

Great references, Michael. Have you also read the Evolutionary Void books by Hamailton? He's one of my favorite authors.

[Michael]

Hey Gage, I have read those and I do like Peter Hamilton a lot but the all that dream world business in the evolutionary void kinda dragged on me. The previous books (pandora's star and Judas unchained) were incredible though.

[Gage]

Yes, Pandora's Star and Juds Unchained were mind blowing. I actually went back and read those two after I had read the Void trilogy and was surprised how much better they were.

[Kaa]

Anyone else planning on reading this in the near future? I am, but I'm hoping to finish Patternmaster first, and then jump over to Wild Seed.

[Lesley]

I was hoping to join the buddy read that started today, but I haven’t gotten my copy from the library yet. Crossing my fingers that it’ll be available some time this week. Though I should ask, is there a better order to read the Patternmaster series in, rather than the suggested progression that starts with Wildseed?

[Kaa]

A couple other folks said that they liked reading it in publication order, but honestly I've heard both ways. I'm mixing and matching a little, by starting with the first book published (Patternmaster) and then going to the first book chronologically (Wild Seed). If you don't have the book yet, we could push back the start date for Wild Seed a few days?

[Lesley]

Thanks for the background! I didn’t realize that they weren’t published in chronological order. Pushing it back sounds great, but I can just jump in on the conversation whenever I start reading.

[Kaa]

It seems like just the two of us so far, so I'm happy to wait until your copy arrives.

[Lesley]

Sounds good, Overdrive says my hold will be available in the next few days.

[Travis]

I'm waiting for my copy and hoping to join too.

[John]

Wanted to try out a buddy read so got a copy of this from my Overdrive. Started reading it this morning but will but it aside for few days and will check back on thread.

[Andy]

I'm finishing the series and will jump in once the discussion starts. I'd love to hear others' opinions since Wild Seed was so thought provoking.

[Lesley]

My copy arrived! I need to finish On a Red Station, Drifting, but I’m planning to dive into this tomorrow or Thursday.

[Kaa]

Hooray! I still need to finish Patternmaster, so that works well for me.

[Lesley]

I started last night. I’m only about 10 pages in, but I’m already intrigued by the world. I like how Butler’s books always start with some strange, vague situation that compels you to keep reading to find out more.

[Andy]

Lesley wrote: " I like how Butler’s books always start with some strange, vague situation that compels you to keep reading to find out more."

They do grab you from the start. Maybe it's just me, but I also tend to start with a sense of menace—that something's gone disturbingly wrong or is about to. Maybe that's part of what pulls me in.

[Lesley]

Andy wrote: "something's gone disturbingly wrong or is about to.”

Definitely! I felt that way about both Parable of the Sower and Dawn.

[Allison]

The sense of a menacing environment and an obvious/intolerable issue are definitely something she does well.

[Kaa]

Yes, completely agree. She is a master of drawing the reader in from the very first scene.

I finished Patternmaster last night, and am just picking up Wild Seed this morning. I enjoyed Patternmaster, but (very general Patternmaster discussion) (view spoiler)[I can definitely see why it's maybe not the strongest book to conclude the series with - it is, for Butler, a comparatively light read, and I suspect it may feel anti-climatic after reading the earlier books. (hide spoiler)]

[Andy]

Kaa wrote: "I finished Patternmaster last night, and am just picking up Wild Seed this morning. I enjoyed Patternmaster, but (very general Patternmaster discussion)"

Agreed—your spoiler is part of why I'm glad I read that book first. I enjoyed it, but since that was her first novel, it was fun watching her develop as an author in following ones.

[Kaa]

Andy wrote: "Kaa wrote: "I finished Patternmaster last night, and am just picking up Wild Seed this morning. I enjoyed Patternmaster, but (very general Patternmaster discussion)"

Agreed—your spoiler is part of..."

I'm also finding it interesting to see some of the parallels in (general discussion of Patternmaster and the first 3 chapters of Wild Seed) (view spoiler)[the relationships between men and women in the two books - possessive men and independent-minded women. (hide spoiler)]

[Kaa]

Wild Seed-specific post through Ch 3: I am really intrigued by the story so far. The alternating viewpoints are working well for me, and I especially like (view spoiler)[the way they let the reader see the power struggle developing between Doro and Anyanwu. (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

Through chapter 4: (view spoiler)[ I see the seeds (no pun intended) of Xenogenesis in this story, with the focus on genetics, importance of ancestry and the possibilities of self-healing.

I’m also thrown by Doro’s manipulation of the institution of slavery as a way to achieve his own ends. He seems to believe he has a higher purpose and maybe he does as an immortal spirit being. He is almost maniacally driven, and will do whatever it takes to get there. I can definitely see the tension building between him and Anyanwu, who in contrast seems much more internally focused on herself, her descendants and not interfering too much in the world. (hide spoiler)]

[John]

Kaa wrote: "Wild Seed-specific post through Ch 3: I am really intrigued by the story so far. The alternating viewpoints are working well for me, and I especially like [spoilers removed]"

Thru chapter 3 myself and also like the alternating viewpoints and (view spoiler)[a woman who can crush rocks in her hands. Suspect I don't have to worry about Doro taking over her body. (hide spoiler)]

This is my 1st Octavia E. Butler read so can't compare/contrast but does make me want to move on to Earthseed duology and have Kindred coming from the library soon. Will wait till end but not sure ready to invest time in the other 3 novels in this series.

[Lesley]

@John (view spoiler)[ I sort of wish she hadn’t demonstrated that to him so quickly so that she has some way of keeping him off balance as his desire to use her for his own purposes grows. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 5: (view spoiler)[ The scene with the leopard was startling, even if Lale deserved it. I loved the scene with the dolphin, how Butler really got into that mindset. (hide spoiler)]

[Kaa]

I finished the book this afternoon. While I found it very good and plan on continuing with the series in the relatively near future, I don't think it was quite as amazing as Earthseed or Kindred. However, Mind of My Mind is the Patternmaster book that's been recommended to me the most, so maybe it will have that extra "wow" that's missing from Wild Seed and Patternmaster for me. Doro also appears in Mind of My Mind.

Thoughts on the complete book: (view spoiler)[It was hard to read about Anyanwu continuing to be forced to give in to Doro throughout the book, although it helps that in the end she was able to fight back and get her independence. I won't say she won, though, because I don't actually think Doro lost anything - like Isaac told them, Doro needed her, so he came out ahead as well.

I thought there was some fantastic imagery and description in the book - Lesley pointed out the scenes where she takes on animal forms, and I completely agree. (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

@Kaa I had many of the same thoughts. I enjoyed the ideas and the presentation of those ideas much more in Earthseed and Xenogenisis. However since this is an earlier work, I appreciate that it allowed Butler to try out some ideas that she would later refine. Her writing is always so clear and accessible, even if I found my mind drifting from the story now and then. I’m still on the fence about continuing with the series, but I probably will eventually.

Re: the whole book (view spoiler)[ The theme of power, who has it, how it manifests, how do they use it, how do they keep it, and who is controlled by it, was the most compelling part for me. It was interesting to see how Doro and Anyanwu's relationship evolved in the last third of the book and how the power base shifted. I agree that she didn’t “win”, but at least she ends up on more equal footing.

I liked the role Isaac played as the peacemaker trying to bridge the gap between Doro's world and Anyanwu's. His power seemed to be in quiet persuasion, genuine care and loyalty, showing that you don’t always need an iron fist to influence people. Similarly Anyanwu's healing ability and her compassion for individuals won her a lot of loyalty. (hide spoiler)]

[Kaa]

@Lesley: Yes, I do always enjoy seeing how writers refine their ideas over time, so that's a cool part of this series.

I also completely agree about how fascinating (view spoiler)[the theme of power is in this book/series. One of the things I really love about Butler's writing is that she can be so brutally realistic about abuse within traditional power structures, yet she also is very clear about the potential for more just systems and forms of power. (hide spoiler)]

[Andy]

@Kaa/@Lesley The comments in your spoilers address exactly what made me so uncomfortable reading this book—and some of Butler's other books, even though I've enjoyed and admired them all so far.

Kaa, as you say, it seems like much of her writing has at its heart (view spoiler)[imbalanced power dynamics. For Kindred, that goes as far as exploring literal slavery.

When I pick up a book, deep down a part of me just wants the Good Guy to overcome the Bad Guy (or adversity). Butler doesn't seem bound by the whole Admirable Hero Wins Victory narrative. Instead, she seems to use her stories as sandboxes to see how imbalanced power relationships play out. (hide spoiler)]

For me at least, Wild Seed (and the whole Patternist series) make more sense and is easier to bear if I look at it that way.

(view spoiler)[It was hard to see Anyanwu continually debased by Doro, and when she occasionally seemed almost resigned to that, it left me weary. It helped me to think of the situation as a deeply imbalanced power dynamic.

Doro is a foe who literally can't be opposed. He's the perfect master. No one can stop him, kill him, or even really hurt him. He can track down and kill or recover any runaway. He's nearly devoid of empathy, and sees his work as so important that it justifies any cruelty or short-term unfairness. He doesn't treat "his" people like people at all, except for a select few.

So when Anyanwu brings him to heel through his need for her, I think that's as close to victory as she could possibly come. He's still free to do amoral things to others, but even though she hasn't "defeated" him, she's found a power to rein him in. With an unopposable force, stalemate is victory. (hide spoiler)]

[Kaa]

@Andy: Yeah, I completely agree. Many of Butler's books are incredibly uncomfortable to read, which is I think what makes them so powerful. In fact, one of the ways that I can tell that Patternmaster (view spoiler)[is an early effort is that it doesn't evoke that same feeling of pointed discomfort that her later books often do. (hide spoiler)]

Wild Seed, however, (view spoiler)[was an incredible uncomfortable read. As you said, Anyanwu's repeated humiliation and suffering at Doro's hands, and her (temporary) surrender to it, was very difficult to read about. Butler is very skilled at conveying the feeling of hopelessness and helplessness of her characters to the reader. And you're right, I don't think Anyanwu could hope for more of a victory over him, but it was significant to me to note how conditional that "victory" was. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison]

You all are really capturing a lot of what made this a hard read for me, very well said Andy, Kaa and Lesley!