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Apr 2012: Bounders, Buggers and Bastards - Reading as a Brit
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While not romances, here are a couple of examples of the genre set in America:The Falling Machine
The Half Made World
The Buntline Special
I've never been to the UK so the description didn't bother me that much except for the fact that half the time I couldn't figure out where I was. I mean, London is mentioned but then Manhattan kept coming up which kept putting me over here in NYC. Heck maybe that was the intent? I don't know, I've been spending most of the time letting the setting roll over my head. I'm enjoying the book, I just picture a dirty, unique city and move on. So yes, as an American who hasn't traveled to Britain...it was easy enough to get into :-).
I've been to London a couple of times so not married to a realistic version of it. I also pictured a unique city and moved on. Also I wish they would have spent time describing a cream tea ... damn I miss those.
Chaz:In answer to your question about steampunk I cannot recommend a cleared perspective than Jay Kristoff's: http://misterkristoff.wordpress.com/c...
As to the problem of American authors romanticizing the UK: I understand, as I am an American who lived in Edinburgh for 10 years and there definitely is a difference in the writing of a 'local' and a 'tourist'. I often faced the sardonic smiles and lifted eyebrows of my Scottish friends as I got overly excited about a new band, a museum exhibit, a moonset over the castle. 'You're so excitable!" I was often told.
That being said, we Americans ARE more romantic and excitable about things in general. We like broad strokes and encompassing generalizations. The stories we write do have a tendency to 'romanticize' things. We also go overboard in our enthusiasm in general.
For example:
A picture of a Victorian house in Edinburgh: https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/ima...
A picture of a Victorian House in Pacific Grove, CA:
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/ima...
Lastly: Steampunk is an ever changing genre that draws inspiration from Victorian science fiction. The possibilities of the genre are immense, so like all types of fiction, you just need to pick and choose those books and authors that interest you. I myself, am greatly anticipating the aforementioned Jay Kristoff's Japanese Steampunk book due out this Sept.
Chaz wrote: "I am a Brit who has lived in the US for a couple of years but now back in the UK.As an Englishman I find Brook's Anglophilia quaint generally but at times cloying. All of these examples of Brit..."
Chaz, I'm curious as to which part of the UK you're from and if you think that has a bearing on your feelings, particularly about London? I haven't read Iron Duke yet, it just arrived on my Kindle today, so I'm intruiged as to whether I'll see the same things as you, given that if you snapped me in half you'd see "Northerner" running through me like Blackpool rock...;-) I am surrounded by the remnants of the Industrial Revolution here (literally - there are chunks of machinery left around my town as monuments, and mill chimmneys everywhere you look), and I don't think the same can be said of further south.
As a Londoner born and bred, I must admit that the location romanticism didn't bother me so much as the odd use of words. Bounder for Americans dragged me out of the book every time as it brought images of Terry Thomas to mind rather than merely being a reference to a group from over the ocean who hadn't been infected.
I'm a Canadian, and I think I chalked up a lot of the vocabulary that may have rubbed British readers a little wrong to the alt history component. Bounder to describe Americans just struck me as the slang that had developed to suit this alternative Britain, rather than being a reflection of authentic Victorian practices, much the same way we had a vocabulary to describe the infected, the zombies, the various alt tech advances and so on.
Developing slang as an author is a real challenge. I try and always go with entirely new words rather than stretching existing slang to fit. Scott Westerfeld is a master at this.
I totally understand the fact that the major differences in the history would lead to different slang, it was just that in this case it jarred me so completely out of the flow. And unusually so, I don't usually have an issue with words being repurposed into slang for the stuff I read. I guess it is just that "bounder" has such a strong resonance for me that it caused an issue.
Now that I'm a couple of chapters in I have to say it's not bothering me at all - in fact I probably wouldn't have noticed it if it hadn't been pointed out here. I think it's quite a clever double usage; I take it to mean "outbounders" because these people went away, and "rebounders" because they came back. Both very descriptive and slightly derogatory in tone."Buggers" is completely sensible, I can see exactly how that would go into common, non-insulting language in a fairly short space of time.
The problem with these words is that they have existing uses in British English, which is why Brook has picked up on them. But she has obviously only heard them vaguely. 'Bugger' has nothing to do with bugs and 'bounder' sounds like it could have that connotation but it doesn't.My problem is that the same words used in the slang developed in this alt world were used in the real one but no sense of the meaning is the same. It's jarring.
@Caroline I'm from all over having moved a lot as a kid, mainly the Midlands (Birmingham, Stoke, Nottingham) but also Edinburgh, London and Cambridge.
My first language isn't English, so I had to look these words up and when I read on and realized that they were used differently in this book, I thought that they were quite fitting nonetheless.A bounder is a dishonourable man and it also means social climber. The bounders in the book were wealthy because they never were enslaved and now they came back to England and think they are better people.
And even though a Bugger has nothing to do with bugs, it was a funny usage of that word.
I have to admit that once I got used to 'Bounder' and 'Bugger' and their meanings in the book, they didn't bother me. Yes they have different meanings to how we would use them, but that is to be expected in an alternate reality and word meanings do change over time in our 'real' world.
Yes, I agree - I'm not finding these particular words jarring at all (although I'm sure I've read a short story set in this world already so perhaps that's why - was it in the "Wild and Steamy" compilation?). What I did find out of place is "ass" - nobody says that! You sit on your arse and you ride an ass. "Tits" and "shag" are rather tabloid and don't seem to fit well either - but, I have to say, I'm tending to imagine Rhys as Southern English nobility (a la Heyer) when really he's from Wales, and slum Wales at that with a history of pirate lifestyle. So perhaps that's how he'd really think and the crudeness of it is properly in character.
I am about halfway through, and when I see the word bugger I still think 'anal sex' because... well you bugger people lol. Bugger also means 'f*ck' like 'Bugger all' it is never explicitly defined, I would define it as 'Bugger: Someone infected by nanotech 'bugs'' But maybe the modern use of the word is why it was considered a slur, and still was by the bounders (To bound is to run, the bounders ran from England) And I, Irish, do not think they romanticized London... it is described as dirty, falling apart and dull... hardly romantic...
Marie wrote: "I am weird for preferring the f word even though it is more hardcore? Nothing sexy about the word shag .... "No, I'm the same. "Shag" is...I don't know, it's a lazy, fumbling, teenage boy term to me. An unserious, flippant comment after a few beers or an all-lads-together, trying too hard to be cool kind of word. Rather boorish. F*** is a much better sounding word. More serious, a delicious slow-burn start with a hard Anglo-Saxon ending. Leaves you in no doubt what it means.
Yeah, I probably thought about that one too much!
doesn't it literally say 'shag her blind' at one point? Yes I know this is steampunk which is a sub-genre and it is also flaunting alternate history, but this is taking the Victorian-esque manners that I associate with steampunk, it is the antiquated ways of thinking and acting that combines with the technology that makes it so startling, if the characters act modern then it is losing the whole point of that genre!
I'm another Brit and I have to say that while I didn't have a huge problem with bounder, the use of bugger seemed a little out of place. I also was taken out of the experience every time shag was used... I took it as a way to remind the audience that Rhys was meant to be a rough pirate-y type but it it too puerile a word for my tastes, like Marie says there is NOTHING sexy about it.
The use of "buggers" bothered me because I associate it so entirely with Orson Scott Cards's Ender's Game series. I don't want to be constantly reminded of a different book when I'm reading another.I found the usage of 'bounders' quite amusing.
Given that it's alt-history mixed with fantasy, I'd believe that language developed differently. So bugger and bounder make sense to me as slang for the two groups (bug-infected and those who departed for america). But the weird thing for me is that I see little to no influence from the Horde on language - that seems incongruous, for sure.
Yes, that's a good point - you might have expected to see some basic Chinese a la Firefly, if nothing else.
The biggest influence to the language seemed to be French, probably because the French fled to England after the zombies thing. But what I don't get is why the language is so modern. Yes it is an alternate history but it is still based in an Edwardian (can't remember the Monarch named) period. Pride and Prejudice and Zombies stayed true to the time and incorporated new elements. Soulless is keeping it intact too. I just felt that Iron Duke could have been set in a modern period and the story would have essentially been the same. And there wasn't that much in the way of steam technology, airships, iron suits, sex toys and trivial items. The whole theme could have been expanded on so much more. Like efficient weapons for killing the zombies, communication devices etc It didn't feel steampunk to me, just alt history.
I feel really glad that I wasn't the only one who found the word buggers...odd and amusing.As a Brit I found the alt history and steam punk elements passable and plausable. I like the book alot, much more than I thought I would.
*spoiler alert*
I thought the end was lame. Truely the writer could have taken just a few more pages to finish it better.
The character at the begining of the book wasn't someone who would drop her pants, while on duty, to someone who hadn't called in three months; oh and she adopted a daughter. Wait what?
Take another chapeter, go out to dinner, make him work harder sweet heart!
Mod
However, I hated that she used the word "shag." Every time I read it all I could think of was Austin Powers which TOTALLY ruined my perception of Rhys.
I kept thinking of Austin Powers too. It's interesting to hear the point of view of people who use bugger and bounder regularly.
Seth wrote: "As a Londoner born and bred, I must admit that the location romanticism didn't bother me so much as the odd use of words. Bounder for Americans dragged me out of the book every time as it brought i..."The use of "bounder", especially since it's never capitalized, was really jarring to me as well, and I'm a Yank. The same goes for "bugger". It brought me up short every single time, as those words are firmly in my lexicon as pejoratives.
Vicky wrote: "...I hated that she used the word "shag." Every time I read it all ..."That drove me nuts, too. It's just way to colloquial and 20th century to me. There were other similar infractions, too, but you can read my rant in my review.
Im british and at first these words did throw me but now I'm emersed in the world I just see them as part of the culture. However ass instead of arse was not a good choice I'll agree.
Im British, none of the terms or the world building bothered me at all, when I read its usually for escapism and I usually dont want realistic, I want a world I can immerse myself in like this one and enjoy it and not overthink things cos I do that in reality way too much lol
Seeing word "fall" when you know it should be "autumn"? Grrrrr....
PointyEars42 wrote: "Seeing word "fall" when you know it should be "autumn"? Grrrrr...."Urgh, yes. Alternate spellings that haven't been caught by the editor, too - colour/color, anything with a z where it would be an s in BritEng. But in a way they're more forgiveable, like typos of the brain/editorial misses. Phrases like "shag her blind" which are out of context for the character I think are worse somehow because they're more jarring and imply a lack of research.
Caroline wrote: "Urgh, yes. Alternate spellings that haven't been caught by the editor, too - colour/color, anything with a ..."Sometimes it's also a missed opportunity in addition to being an editorial miss. In The Iron Seas series you know the characters could/should have an Old World vs New World slant to their dialects but don't always. Meanwhile, in the background, the narrator forgets to have a consistent "accent".
Yes, that's true. I wonder if it's one of those stylistic things publishing houses go for, though - you stick to either US or UK feel, or change it depending on the edition of the book and the market it's intended for. Philospher's vs Sorcer's Stone springs to mind...
This is precisely why I ensured at least one of my test readers was British. It's also the sort of thing a good professional editor ought to catch. Was the book in question professionally edited?It's really not that hard for authors/editors to get it right these days if they put in the effort with proper research. There's no excuse for shoving "cor blimey guv'nor" nonsense into the reader's eyeballs.
Sorry for the thread necromancy, thought some of you would enjoy this :) Just found a great example of "failing to adjust language to setting" - 50 Shades of Grey! I'm not reading it but Evil Slutopia are doing a great chapter-by-chapter readthrough and one of the things they're putting in each entry is the language failure (and also how many times Ana says "oh my" and the like). http://evilslutopia.com/2012/06/esc-r...
Enjoy!
Caroline wrote: "50 Shades of Grey! I'm not reading it but Evil Slutopia are doing a great chapter-by-chapter read through..."Thank you so much for this link. I'm sharing it with my writer's group. If nothing else, I LOVE the name of the website.
-B
You're very welcome :) I forget where I found it from now - Twitter hivemind no doubt.
I've just finished both Riveted and Mina Wentworth and the Invisible City. The language in the latter is extremely jarring after reading two other novels set in this world that are delightfully free of "shagging" and all of the other words we've picked up on. I think the author has chosen a specific faux-Brit voice for The Iron Duke and associated novellas that just doesn't read right to me. I love how wildly different the characters and story lines are in the rest of the series, but it feels like such a sad regression reading the Mina novella and dealing with the faux-Brit-ness again now that I know how good Meljean Brooks can be.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Riveted (other topics)Mina Wentworth and the Invisible City (other topics)
The Iron Duke (other topics)
The Buntline Special (other topics)
The Falling Machine (other topics)
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As an Englishman I find Brook's Anglophilia quaint generally but at times cloying. All of these examples of British idiom overused in ways that are completely (I hesitate to use the word given the nature of the book) unrealistic. I feel like the depiction of places, particularly London, to be guilty of the worst in romanticised Britain that I would expect from someone who had never visited the country. I don't know whether or not Brook has been here but I would guess not.
I understand that this is a subgenre of Fantasy and I do not expect realism but I do think that the goal seems to be to posit an alternate history where this is mid-19thC after having diverted from traditional history when the Horde took over in the 17thC. If that is the case, I just don't buy this depiction of Britain.
Is an alternate 19thC Britain setting typical of Steampunk? If so I may have to stay away from the genre. Is this easier to read and get into as an American? WOrld building is such a vital aspect to my enjoyment of Fantasy fiction and this one is not working for me.