Better with age?

[Yona]

In Chapter X, Dorian thinks about how his portrait may become more and more horrible as time passes. He spends a few moments thinking, "might not his anture grow finer, after all?" but then quickly dismisses that thought.

So what do you guys think: does life inevitably corrupt us all slowly, or does life slowly perfect us?

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

I think it depends on the purpose one determines for ones' life and the choices a person makes.

[Yona]

Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "I think it depends on the purpose one determines for ones' life and the choices a person makes."

So then what purposes are corrupting? Is it decadent to aim to make money? What if the aim is to make money to be able to support a family?

What if you've lost your original purpose?

[Hamza]

You cannot corrupt something that is already corrupted!

[Yona]

Yona wrote: "In Chapter X, Dorian thinks about how his portrait may become more and more horrible as time passes. He spends a few moments thinking, "might not his anture grow finer, after all?" but then quickly..."

*Argh, should be NATURE.

[Yona]

Hamxa wrote: "You cannot corrupt something that is already corrupted!"

But can you uncorrupt it?

And I'd beg to differ. I'd say petty theft is a corruption, but it's less corrupt than grand larsony!

[Timothy K.]

Yes the accumulated experiences of life corrupt the average human being beyond the recognition of that same human being as a child.

We all become cynical and bitter through these experiences. Through the social and financial disappointments that are bound to effect nearly all of us as we realize that the game of life is nearly always rigged against us and the house nearly always wins.

[Hamza]

Yona, Both Basil and Lord Henry were corrupt with their ideas and principles. Dorian was uncircumcised, he was only a model, a face, but he was fed with all these mentalities and ideals. My form of saying that he is already corrupted, meaning that his soul has already been tainted and in his situation, it was all growing worse and uglier.

[Yona]

Hamxa wrote: "Yona, Both Basil and Lord Henry were corrupt with their ideas and principles. Dorian was uncircumcised, he was only a model, a face, but he was fed with all these mentalities and ideals. My form of..."

Okay that's fair, but I meant my question more broadly and philosophically. Clearly Dorian could not be redeemed because that's not the way the story goes, but can other people? I mean, we all screw up. So what do we do with that?

[Yona]

Timothy K. wrote: "Yes the accumulated experiences of life corrupt the average human being beyond the recognition of that same human being as a child.

We all become cynical and bitter through these experiences. T..."

Do you think that's inevitable, or do you think people can make choices to redeem themselves? (Even if only a few individuals, since you did say "the average human being.) I'm not referring to regaining innocence--you can't turn back in time--and I'm not talking about becoming unhappy about life's disappointments. I mean is there a way to make up for mistakes? Do you think people can only become less good as time goes on? If the answer is no, I'd like to ask you to explain philanthropists and people who run into burning buildings to save other people. Are they secretly dark and twisted on the inside too? Do their good acts do anything to counteract their bad ones, or are they meerly a veneer?

Could you say more about changing from childhood? I don't think I've changed much. I've learned more, but the kinds of things I want and like are still the same, and I still tend to react to and think about the world in the same way. I know because there's a video of me at my 6th birthday, and even though it was years ago I still act similarly to how I do now. It's like a prediction of the future. So, if I'm a corrupt, evil person, I think I must have always been. In what ways do you think you (or maybe people you've met) have become unrecognizable from their childhood self?

[Stephen]

Yona Writes: So what do you guys think: does life inevitably corrupt us all slowly, or does life slowly perfect us?

I think that Life does scar us but I wouldn't call it corruption per se.

I'm always torn about how we are shaped by our lives and how we are disfigured by them.

Even in the Velveteen Rabbit there's this passage

"Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.

"Sometimes," said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. "When you are Real you don't mind being hurt."

"Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?"

"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

And the Bible talks about Pain being an angel that God unleashes to teach us wisdom and a greater sweetness than we can learn any other way.

At the risk of adding a silly simile to this debate we're like blue jeans. We grow more comfortable (with ourselves) through wear. Perhaps a bit more fragile and perhaps not as good at keeping out the cold but still comfortable and welcoming. Course I think I was born "stone washed"

[Yona]

Stephen wrote: I think that Life does scar us but I wouldn't call it corruption per se.

All well said! Well-chosen quotes.

[Sunny]

I think it depends on our definition of corruption and perfection. I often wrestle with the idea of perfection. What is it? Who determines it? Why is it important? I guess I wonder the same about corruption. I think one should live their life in the way he feels happiest.
And let's not forget the choice factor. Many people are upset by the influence Lord Henry had over Dorian but forget that it is Dorian who has the choice to receive the ideals of Lord Henry as his own. Ultimately it is Dorian who decides to take on a hedonistic life and commit murder not anyone else.

[Brice]

Do you believe Dorian would have had the obsession he had with the painting if he had led the life of a simpleton? I often wonder whether his status, and ensuing narcism, had an effect on the effect he believed the painting had on his life. If he came from a poor family, and was himself poor, would he blame his demise on a painting?

[Stephen]

Just finished reading the unabridged version of Dorian Gray for the first time and have thought about this post again...

I'm thinking that Dorian wouldn't have had the opportunity for quite so much "sinning" if he'd looked like he would have looked had the painting not been taking the effects of his sins.

Also, in some ways, Dorian was "egged on" by the painting taking the damage. Sort of an immature "pulling the wings off flies" impulse.

I wonder how much Wilde thought about this while "passing" as a heterosexual family man.

[Somerandom]

I think that life shapes us but we ultimately choose for ourselves. Life can deal you a hand that's not the best. How you react to that and your ideals you live by is ultimately in your hands. Life can currupt but you don't absolutely have to let it. I think Dorian is responsible for all his actions. There's no doubt that Harry had a great influence but Dorian still chose to take him at his word. I think Dorian allowed himself to be currupted. Here was this shiny new interesting man taking an interest in him. He might have been a bit flattered that he was interesting enough to garner attention. He was therefore eager to please his newfound friend and thus became his protege. Harry might have taken advantage of Dorian's naivety but Dorian isn't an idiot. He could have challenged Harry at any time. But didn't. His arrogance and blind obeience lead to his downfall.

I know this is a stupid question and I feel dumb for asking. But was Dorian's compliance a representation of the danger of blindly following society and it's ideals?

I think I may need a few more rereads of the material to let it sink into my thick skull lol.