The Return of the King
discussion
Why didn't Gandalf take the ring to Mount Doom on the back of an eagle.
Nathaniel wrote: "The Great eagles are very powerful in the lore of Middle Earth, which means Sauron would more than likely be keeping tabs on them. It stands to reason he would know if they made a move to attempt t..."Nice, never thought of it this way :)
The birds and beasts were also Sauraman's eyes. They needed to hide the ring from him, too.
if people want it to end that way. the go back in time and tell tolkien to change it to that!
i would have been a pretty short and boring book
i would have been a pretty short and boring book
Dave wrote: "Not to mention the purpose was for men (and hobbits) to stand up and be counted to resolve the world's problems (what with the elves leaving for valinor).Furthermore Radagast did not control the ..."
And remember Frodo at the end was tempted to keep it but Gollum attacked and ultimately took it in.
Geoffrey wrote: "But never in the past tense."It comes down to Gollum, without his deep desire for the ring it would never have been destroyed.
Ha lol look at this on YouTube by HisHe.It's called "How it Should Have Ended"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0...
Lol - It is basically what you said. BTW - This isn't their best work - look up How it should have Ended Hunger Games, the Hobbit, Inception, etc.
Sorry JonesmikeyBut I read the book twice in 1962. Had to wait a lifetime to see in on the screen. I was impressed.
Totally agree with Jonesmikey. The movies never should have been made. In every which way: bad, wrong idea. Wrong on every count. Big-budget blockbuster movie franchises with insipid glossy movie stars wearing cloaks and long hair, is simply not the right medium; not the respectful or careful way to promote reading or generate interest in the Tolkien experience. Its just way to make the whole thing commercially profitable for a bunch of west coast scumbags. Money talks.
LOTR and The Hobbit are one of the few movies I have seen that are the equivalent to the books. Most movies always make the books seem worse - but the producers of LOTR and The Hobbit did an amazing job.
In every fantasy world, there may be some exploits. Like why didn't Harry Potter just use the time turner to go kill Tom Riddle as a baby or something. Or why didn't the ministry use Veritaserum to ascertain Harry was telling the truth.I've also heard the "surgical strike team of elves + Frodo going Rainbox Six style into Mordor" exploit.
If we could ask Tolkien today about this point, I have no doubt that he would have the answer immediately, but I'm not sure what it would be. Maybe something about the fact that Eagles are only down with going into Mordor after Sauron's defeat or some power by which Sauron would stop them. Unlike so many fantasy books with gaping holes, I feel certain Tolkien would have the answer. But of course he wouldn't have them discuss it and reject it so we can see the answer. It would be assumed by Elrond and Gandalf why it wouldn't work. They would know, so they wouldn't mention it.
because otherwise we wouldn't have had 3 wonderfull parts of Lord of The Rings to read :)and the part of Gandalf wanting to use the ring for Good and thus exposing it to Sauron
Forget the Eagles and lasers. Gandalf wouldn't dare touch the ring for fear of being too tempted to use it. That was obvious when Frodo offered it to Gandalf when he revealed that he had it. Gandalf jerked back from it, refusing to even touch it. Gandalf knew it was only safe with Frodo because Frodo was the only one who didn't want it.
No, it wasn`t that Frodo didn`t want it, ultimately, but that he would not use it to amass personal power over the Middle Earth. All of its past possessors wanted it, Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, it`s just that the Hobbits were not power conscious. Men are. Dwarves, orcs, elves are.
Nathaniel wrote: "J.D. wrote: "Some interesting ideas here buuuut.1) The eagles helped out plenty, all Gandalf had to do is ask. In the hobbit they carry the whole company, they evacuate Gandalf from Orthanc, and f..."
I think you forget that smeagol played a role.... Frodo needed his help.
I don't think Frodo could finish it I mean. He carried the burden to get to mount doom but it took the lust of power to destroy it.
Nicolás wrote: "Vivienne wrote: "Gandolf couldn't take the ring.... He would've kept it and not destroyed it. Just like anybody else would have, except frodo!"You mean Sam. Sam's the hero."
That's pretty much how I always saw it, too. And my husband and I have spoken about the eagle issue. Why not just fly the ring out and not risk lives in the process? His answer was that the eagles were their own people essentially and may not have wanted to be involved in what was going on with the Fellowship. They couldn't be forced or coerced into something that wasn't their problem at the time.
Of course since they didn't do it that way we now have a classic story to enjoy. ;)
Actually I meant smeagol, but Sam was important too. I guess that is why it took a fellowship. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gollum
"Death
Moments later, Frodo was standing on the edge of the Crack of Doom, but, unwilling to destroy the Ring, claimed it for himself and put it on. Then Gollum attacked the hobbits again. Gollum knocked out Sam whilst Frodo was invisible. But Gollum was able to track his footprints and jumped on Frodo. The two fought and finally Gollum bit off Frodo's finger.
Here Bilbo's long-ago kindness in sparing Gollum's life was rewarded, for Gollum then teetered on the edge of the great pit, lost his balance and fell in, (In the movie Frodo pushed him in.) taking the Ring and finger with him along with a final cry of "Precious!" He was then burned in the molten magma and the Ring was destroyed with him. Had Gollum not lived to play this final part, there was a good chance that Sauron would have regained his Ring, as he knew where Frodo was as soon as he put it on."
Catherine wrote: "I can't decide if JRRT would be rolling on the floor laughing his rear off about now, or flattered at all the mental energy that is being consumed in this thread."More likely, he'd point out that it's JUST a story!! Not real! :)
Because the easy way out is not always the best way out. What would have become of Frodo? He would have never had any adventures worth mentioning, and his friendship with Merry, Pippin and Sam strengthened during the time he was bearing the ring.
I think that1. Eagles were unable to reach mordor bacause there were many spies who will inform sauroman and he was very powerful wizard.
2. Even if they reach there, sauron and his army will than be waiting for them.
3. With Possibility of being infulenced by ring, no one was allowed to carry that ring. even eagles may have been influenced by ring.
4. Last but not the least, than there would be nothing to write in books :P joking :D
Well, Frodo was the only one who could stand the temptation more than most. It's like Lady Galadriel, he would have seen how much he could have done, and got tempted, thus, Golem's fate.
Probably because Tolkien wasn't a fan of deus ex machina. But to each their own.
Because that wouldn't make for a very good story, would it?
Nicolás wrote: "Vivienne wrote: "Gandolf couldn't take the ring.... He would've kept it and not destroyed it. Just like anybody else would have, except frodo!"You mean Sam. Sam's the hero."
Don't ever mistake the fact that, though Frodo failed in the end, it was Frodo that got the ring there. Even if he did have Sam's help for a bit there at Cirth Ungol. At the same time Sam is a hero in his own right because he is exactly who he seemed to be. Sam, the steadfast, stalwart and loyal friend and servant that was there when his friend needed him.
And if you want to split hairs, you might as well say that Gollum was the hero because it was he that carried the ring into the Cracks of Doom to the Ring's destruction.
(Yeah, that's one of my nerves and I will never forgive Mr Jackson for turning Frodo into a sack of potatoes.)
There is a lot of stuff in the books about how hobbits aren't just inconspicuous creatures, but have the ability to hide or disappear when "big folks" come around. Plus, Sauron is expressly described as not considering such insignificant people worth watching. Therefore, the whole idea is that the hobbits can do a little midgety ninja thing to sneak the ring in under Sauron's nose (or his Eye, in this case.) Plus, the hobbits appear to have less corruptibility than other creatures, though that gets rather tested....We don't really know what powers Sauron has. At the very least, he is a kind of advanced radar warning system. A big feathery eagle with some dude on its back is conspicuous to say the least. The Eye of Sauron appears to have some sort of power with just its gaze over a certain range. Once Frodo and Sam are discovered "...its thought was now bent with all its overwhelming force upon the Mountain...." What "overwhelming force" means isn't really described. Laser beams? Death gaze? Turn people to stone? Who knows?
Point being, somebody on an eagle going towards Mount Doom would probably result in a puff of feathers and a rider plunging to earth. Why not just deliver the ring to Sauron UPS?
Gary wrote: "do a little midgety ninja thing"I like that! I'll have to roll up a Halfling Ninja next! :-)
Howard wrote: "Gary wrote: "do a little midgety ninja thing"I like that! I'll have to roll up a Halfling Ninja next! :-)"
Domo arigato, Mister Frodo.
Natasha wrote: "Besides...what kind of story would that have made?"A short story . . . :-)
It would have turned LoTR into a short story!
Apart from the fact that the Eagles weren't their servants, could have been corrupted by the Ring, and weren't nearly strong enough to confront Sauron directly (look how many died in the Battle of 5 Armies), there's a perhaps even more compelling reason.Most importantly of all, flying on the eagles would have cheated the Hobbits out of their journey. When they return to Hobbiton in Return of the King, Gandalf says
“I am with you at present,” said Gandalf, “but soon I shall not be. I am not coming to the Shire. You must settle its affairs yourselves; that is what you have been trained for. Do you not yet understand? My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends, you will need no help. You are grown up now. Grown indeed very high; among the great you are, and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.
It’s really a pivotal moment and it was a shame Jackson admittedly didn’t understand what the point of the scene was. They of course dealt with their problems in the Shire, but they wouldn’t have been able to without the lessons learned from their journey.
No one asks why the Ents didn’t march on Mordor instead of Isengard, because that idea is manifestly nonsensical. The Ents had a grudge against Saruman personally, it was closer, they couldn’t have faced the Dark Lord or his Nazgul, etc. The Eagles flying to Mordor is an equally ridiculous notion and should be retired from discussion of the series.
Where would be the story in that?
Ahimsa wrote: "Apart from the fact that the Eagles weren't their servants, could have been corrupted by the Ring, and weren't nearly strong enough to confront Sauron directly (look how many died in the Battle of ..."Never noticed that little part actually, but does make enormous sense!
Many, many good reasons.One more.
It would have been a seriously short book.
Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination...
Erin C. wrote: "And because gandalf found the ring too powerful for him and didnt want to hold it"Yes, I think it would have been too much of a temptation for Gandalf to use the ring if he was to take it.
Bombadil could have used it to keep his kitchen table level.
It would have been a very short book... but not short in the way people seem to imagine. It would not have been "Gandalf rides to Mount Doom and drops the Ring in a river of lava." It would have been "Frodo hands the Ring to Gandalf, who becomes the new Dark Lord and begins a new dark age for Middle Earth" or "Gandalf flies to Mordor to usurp the Dark Lord and dies in the attempt, effectively returning the Ring to Sauron and ushering in a new dark age for Middle Earth."
Jonesmike: I think Gandalf had it right. Ole Tom, upon whom the Ring had no hold, would likely have simply tossed the ring out one day, never giving a thought to what might happen outside his world.Better to destroy it outright than to chance it being found by Sauron one day.
They took such a risk trying to destroy it. They had to set up an incredibly costly assault on Mordor to divert attention from poor Frodo and Sam. Destroying the ring cost them so much. It would have been so much easier, in the short run, to simply throw the damn thing in the ocean or down a deep hole, or toss it to Tom Bombadil. Of course, "short term" is the operative term here. They did the right thing by taking all the risk and actually destroying the ring. I'm sure all the characters in Lord of the Rings would appreciate the fact that I approve of their quest.
well, the easy way out would indeed have been, toss it in the ocean and be gone with it, however, oceans move, and the ring, having a nag to always find someone to use it, will move with it back to shore! And than they're back to square 1.
That would have taken a long time. And like I said, had they been looking for a short term fix that would've been a good idea. Cirdan the Shipwright was waiting right down there in the Gray Havens, a short trek from the Shire.As I said, however, that would have only been short term, and all the old crap would eventually hit the fan. The only logical step would have been destroying the ring, which they did, successfully, but with unbelievable loss.
If they tossed it in the ocean some creature would swallow it and then be caught by some fisherman so you'd be in trouble.People who say "it would have been a short book" etc are probably NOT reading any of the many logical explanations given in this topic again and again.
What if the Elves sailed to Valinor and kept the ring there? No, that wouldn't work because the Elves would be more easily swayed by the ring's influence. The boat would never have made it. If it did Valinor would most likely turn into another Mordor. The only logical choice was the one taken. Frodo did the right thing by slipping away. Luckily Sam was such a loyal pest. Aragorn said he would have gone with Frodo all the way to Mount Doom. If he did, there would have been nobody to get the army of the dead. All in all, everything worked out right in the end.
Gandalf was afraid; didnt want to cut his beard, knew he'd never make through pre-flight security with his facial follicles, decided to send Frodo instead so he could keep the beard and smoke fine herb and make fun of the new pope (who totally stole his hat)
I seem to recall Gandalf saying that the Valar would not accept the Ring into Valinor because it was of Middle Earth and therefore should be dealt with in Middle Earth.
Josh wrote: "Gandalf was afraid; didnt want to cut his beard, knew he'd never make through pre-flight security with his facial follicles, decided to send Frodo instead so he could keep the beard and smoke fine herb and make fun of the new pope (who totally stole his hat)"We should be listening to this guy, he's on to something.
I think you got something there, Josh!Will wrote: "Josh wrote: "Gandalf was afraid; didnt want to cut his beard, knew he'd never make through pre-flight security with his facial follicles, decided to send Frodo instead so he could keep the beard an..."
I don't think Sauron was like yeah my plan is flawless except for eagles but heh I'll take my chances. He was probably well prepared and Gandalf always said Frodo and Sam are the best bet since Sauron would never ever expect 2 little hobbits to be able to destroy him, meaning he probably expected various forms of attack and was prepared for it.
When a tyrant rules by force, he expects to be countered by force. Anna, you`re exactly right. Sauron, the powerful and bloodthirsty, did not expect two little weaklings from the shire to be the Ringbearers bent on putting the fire to the talisman.
Because, if he had, the book would have been about as long as your question and what a loss that would be to us readers!
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Return of the King (other topics)
Books mentioned in this topic
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (other topics)The Return of the King (other topics)
One thing to consider is simple risk management. What would happen if a ring bearer atop an eagle is taken out, or the eagle, over Mordor? They fall to the ground, dead, ring in hand, right where Sauron can scoop it up and it's game over.
And OK, granted, sending two hobbits into Mordor alone is risky too. (But remember, the entire fellowship, when the idea was conceived, was meant to go.) But two hobbits, together the size of one man, who are naturally good natured and incorruptible, who are good at hiding, and virtually unknown to Sauron (or at least not thought of as a threat), seem to be significantly less obvious than an eagle, or likely several eagles, just flying over Mordor out of the blue. Together with all the misdirection and the other wars being waged, it seems more (or maybe somewhere in the same realm) plausible than just sending the eagles in and cheering for them.
I think it's unlikely that the nine fell beasts that the Nazgul utilized were the only such ones in all the land. Sauron could have, I think, easily summoned himself a little air force of his own. And even if the eagles are more badass and likely to win against the fell beasts, it goes right back to risk management: one dead eagle and Sauron has the ring.