Connecting Readers and Writers discussion
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Elle Pepper
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Depends a lot on how the non-human thinks. I mean, for example, say your non-human is basically Data from ST:TNG."Commander: I have found an example of the local flora. It's sexual organ is red in color, with 38 petals in what appears to be a loosely spiraled interlocking pattern. These petals and the strong scent the flora puts out seem to be designed to attract inscect life in an effort to exchange genetic material with other flora so as to reproduce."
Meanwhile, if your alien is an herbivore, it might talk about how it smells and tastes.
If your character does not see, you might talk about texture and scent.
Or sidestep the whole thing completely, and call a rose a rose. Unless Jalen speaks English, he's probably never heard of every other word in the book, as well.
I know a lot of fantasy readers tend to be put off by elaborate descriptions and exotic names for things they already know, the general rule being: "If it's a bear, call it a bear. Don't bore the reader describing something he already knows."
Shyrilla (The Lost City of Mystery!)
Anyway, hope that's at least a little helpful.
Elle wrote: "I am currently working on my second book in the Flag of Bones series, and I came across a couple questions that are stumping me.
How do you describe a rose from the POV of a non-human who has ..."
describe the rose like this: in the center is a drop of pure love pure joy. surrounding that drop of love and joy are many thin, sweet-smelling hands, sometimes red, soemtimes white, sometimes other colors, all trying to hold and protect and keep that drop of love and joy safe. and all of that, the drop and the hands, are all on the top of a green, thin but strong staff to keep it above the ground and a little more safe than it would be on the ground. and attached to the thing, green staff are usually two strong arms, leaves, and they're always looking up, just in case anyone falls from the top.
How do you describe a rose from the POV of a non-human who has ..."
describe the rose like this: in the center is a drop of pure love pure joy. surrounding that drop of love and joy are many thin, sweet-smelling hands, sometimes red, soemtimes white, sometimes other colors, all trying to hold and protect and keep that drop of love and joy safe. and all of that, the drop and the hands, are all on the top of a green, thin but strong staff to keep it above the ground and a little more safe than it would be on the ground. and attached to the thing, green staff are usually two strong arms, leaves, and they're always looking up, just in case anyone falls from the top.
The problem is that it is told from Jalen's point of view and Rose just doesn't seem to fit his normal speaking style.
then we'll need to know more about him...
He's a brigand. A pirate, but he is coming across plants that resemble earth plants (It is a fantasy world that knows nothing of Earth) which can be used for battle remedies and cures for poisons, he is gearing up for a large battle, and comes across a patch of whatever would pass for roses on their world, and some medicinal flowers, and I can get the other flowers across but haven't figured out how to describe the roses from the POV of someone who while he knows they are beautiful is more interested in their medicinal properties and identifying them so that he hand his men know they have the right plant.
then maybe replace the drop of love and joy with a gold coin? hands trying to hold it? not sure if he would care about a rose.
I guess I'm not explaining myself well. He comes across this plant that WE would call a rose,but my beta readers said that it was too 'earthly' of a term and broke the mood. But the but this rose-like plant has some properties on the magic world he lives on that make it desireable for some of the herbal remedies he needs, he is weeks away from the closest help by sail, and knows that the medicine he can make is better than he can buy, so he wants to make it, but he has to tell his men which of the thorny shrubs is the one he needs. How do you 'explain' a rose to someone who is not a botanist or an herbologist?
And, no one did answer me for a lost city of the sirens.
do the people to whom he must explain have any knowledge of any flowers at all?
Some, but not as much as he does. His interest in flowers is strictly because of the things that they can be used for. but they wouldn't probably know book names as most of them are commoners, uneducated sailors, they can tell you everything about a ship but most of them only know flowers because of their mothers girlfriends or wives like them, not for their properties.
So I guess the way you would describe it to a child?
the way a pirate would describe it to a child.
Ok, I guess sometimes it just helps to talk it out with another person or yourself.
Keryl wrote: "Unless Jalen speaks English, he's probably never heard of every other word in the book, as well."This is worth noting. Under the same basis, they couldn't converse at all. "It is a type of flower."
"What's a flower?"
"It's a type of plant."
"What's a plant?"
"It's a natural lifeform of vegetable matter that feeds on carbon dioxide and emits oxygen, along with using chlorophyl, a green pigment to absorb light, as well as trace chemicals that..."
"What's "It's"?
etc etc etc
I understand that, It isn't really my problem, just that my readers thought that the word rose in context was a bit odd, because all of the other flowers are based on earth flowers but with other names and slightly different needs and way different uses. So I either have to figure out what to call them that isn't rose, or find a way to describe them without using the rose word.
I understand that, The speaker not understanding the word rose is not the problem. I had USED 'rose" but my problem is , just that my readers thought that the word rose in context was a bit odd, because all of the other flowers are based on earth flowers but with other names and slightly different needs and way different uses. So I either have to figure out what to call them that isn't rose, or find a way to describe them without using the rose word.
I had taken some pictures of interesting flowers and without using their proper names, I am describing them into the scenery when they are needed. I never give you the 'earth' name of the flower but if you looked it up you would recognize the plant I based it off of, but the planet is not earth, and as such my readers felt that with the other flower names like 'fire flower' and "Royal canopy" Rose seemed out of place. So what can I describe that would bring up the IMAGE of a rose without using the textbook name.
Okay... So, in the case of your pirate trying to get his crew to bring back the right thorny plant I'd go for descriptions of color, size, number (approximately) of petals, leaf color, stem color, and the thorns. If he's in his ship, I might just happen to have a text on herbalism among the medical supplies and show them a sketch.Mentioning it's a large flower, about the size of his palm, on thorny stems should get the idea across to most of the readers.
L.H. wrote: "Keryl wrote: "Unless Jalen speaks English, he's probably never heard of every other word in the book, as well."This is worth noting. Under the same basis, they couldn't converse at all. "It is a ..."
Which is more or less the root of the call a bear a bear rule.
Lorelei is another name for Sirens. As for the rose as useful herb description, tell them to look out for thorns, ignore those obnoxious-smelling red petals, and get to the parts I can grind up.
As for the name, how about simply: MYSTERIA LOST.As for the rest, ask Shane Porteous. He's excellent on this.
For the rose, could your pirate sketch it? Even if he drew in the dirt with a stick, or with charcoal from a burnt-out fire on a piece of wood, that would give a visual reference. He could say these thorny plants have sweet smelling red flowers and green leaves and grow in sunny areas.I have no idea about the island question.
Keryl wrote: "L.H. wrote: "Keryl wrote: "Unless Jalen speaks English, he's probably never heard of every other word in the book, as well."This is worth noting. Under the same basis, they couldn't converse at a..."
Anyone remember that great Star Trek: TNG episode where Picard is stuck on a planet, "enemy mine" style, with an alien who speaks only in phrases from Shakespeare? Wild.
-What do your people call the red flower, the one with thorns and a sweet smell?-There's one like that the girls use for perfume. Does that sound right?
-Yes, my people use it for that too. What do you call it?
-Well, it has lots of names depending on the place you're from, see, but it doesn't matter, by any of its names it still smells sweet. I know which one you mean.
-The men of Clarth call that city Cymeria. Those from Bannah name it Sythe, while the peoples of the west say it is Farathe and always was.-And you? What do you call it?
-Its name was lost long ago. I call it the lost city, or the city of mystery. Folk usually know where I mean. There aren't so many of'em that they can get 'em confused.
For the name of your city, how about:Arkon
I wrote a short story about 25 years ago (I'm old lol) that was called:
The Orb of Arkon
In that story, Arkon was the name of the planet, but it's a pretty cool city name too.
L.H. wrote: Remember that one episode of TNG...Actually it wasn't Shakespere, it was a language that did not have it's own adjectives or adverbs but instead used historical and literary references to convey modifiers.
I actually think it was called "Shaka, when the walls fell" (I think Enemy Mine was a different one...), in reference to the fact that the language they encountered did not have a word for "surprise." Instead they referenced the look on the face of "Shaka, when the walls fell."
Wait... we're both wrong. It was called Darmok:
now i'm ready to read "jabberwocky."
lolTY, bob, you were more where I was heading.
It’s a tall order put words in the mouth of an unknown and not even human character, but I’ll take a shot.“To find this plant, follow your nose.” Jalen cocked his head back, closed his eyes and sucked in a breath through flared nostrils. “Deep sweet, strong.” He took in another breath. “Musky.” Jalen opened his eyes and grinned. “It smells of love, can’t miss it.”
He cupped his hands. “Then look for red flowers, goblet shaped, like the best part of a woman’s backside.”
A few laughed. Jalen had everyone’s attention. “Sometimes the color is lighter, even pink. They grow in thickets. Leaves are deep green, pointed ovals with saw tooth edges. Woody stems are covered with thorns, so be careful.”
Jalen smiled again. “This flower is much like love, intoxicating. It will bite those who rush in carelessly.”
So, the idea is to avoid exposition through dialogue and use the rose’s common association with love to evoke the image in the reader. That’s the plan anyway.
As for a mysterious siren city name, how about Tatoosh?
The real Tatoosh Island sits at the far Northwest point of Washington State. The sea fights to take it down but the island’s rocky shore resists like bared teeth. A remote place of violent beauty, it has a history of luring sailors to their doom.
Wow! You should keep going Mark! Very awesome indeed!
L.H. wrote: "Keryl wrote: "L.H. wrote: "Keryl wrote: "Unless Jalen speaks English, he's probably never heard of every other word in the book, as well."This is worth noting. Under the same basis, they couldn't..."
Oh yes, and Enemy Mine as well. Liked both of those quite a bit
Yes thank you Keryl, but the problem wasn't that I didn't want to have him speak english it was that the word rose was not sitting right with my beta reader and they wanted me to explain it as he would instead of just saying rose.
How do you describe a rose from the POV of a non-human who has never heard the word rose. (MY fantasy planet has a very similar plant but Jalen would never have heard the word rose.)
And what is a good name for a lost city of mystery.