Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
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Am I the only person who didn't really like Snape?
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Mary wrote: "Carly wrote: "Mary wrote: "NO you arent. I HATED HIM to the end. He was a crook and i dont care if he was working for the good he didnt have to be so cruel. Harrys dad was a turd to though."He di..."
The "hurt" of deception? You're saying that you don't like that Voldemort was being "hurt" by deception? Because it sounds like you are and that's kinda funny.
Dawn wrote: "Lots of kids were teased in school, but while Snape wasn't the worse of the worse, I didn't 'like' him or Sirius really. Neither one of them got over being little boys. Of the three knuckle heads, ..."Snape was also neglected and possibly abused at his home and being teased (as you call it, I don't think the underwear incident's teasing) at school made it impossible for him to feel safe anywhere, other than when he was with Lily.
Paola Gabriella wrote: "I still hate Snape. I think that everybody forgets the fact that he killed people just because he loved Lily. And I believe that if he was truly loyal to Dumbledore, he wouldn't killed him. I don't..."He actually killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore asked him to.
I think you guys are really missing the point. Snape is a jerk. He is a heroic jerk, but that doesn't make him likeable. He had a shitty childhood. And that explains his jerkishness, but it certainly doesn't excuse it.
Anamta wrote: "Jeanie wrote: "Snape was a complex character and very interesting, but not likable to me--even by the end. I understood him better and felt some pity, but I'll never like him. It wasn't just Harr..."I appreciate that you note that the explanations for Snape's behavior toward people like Nevill aren't justifications. But, no, I've never been tempted to take out my dislike for one person on their own children. While I may wonder what effect having a parent like that may have on the child when I meet him or her, I would never dream of being rude or mean to that kid just because his or her parent was a jerk--or worse.
It's fine for us to work to understand what Snape's underlying motives might be for treating some students badly. His own childhood being abused, his assumption that virtually every child grew up with advantages he didn't have and his resenting them for it, his projecting of blame onto the innocent for the actions of their parents, or even blaming a child like Neville for Fate passing over him... but understanding any of this, as you pointed out, isn't justification for the behavior.
I believe and hope that the vast majority of people would have chosen a different way to express their own frustration, resentment, and disappointment under similar circumstances. I've met many people with a history of being abused and who seemed to have been dealt a pretty crappy hand by life in general who still managed to make positive choices that improved the direction of their lives. It's a pity Snape didn't do the same.
I never liked Snape either! I respect the sacrifices he made for the greater good but I still strongly disliked him as a character. There were so many moments in the series when I first read it where I so wanted him to just drop dead on the spot. Yes, he was in love with Lily, but the way he treats Harry and Neville throughout the entire series proves that he definitely wasn't right for her. I understand that he needed to pretend to be a death eater, and that he's been through a lot, but in my mind that does not justify all of his actions. He's a very well-developed character but I don't quite understand how in one chapter everyone decided he was a actually a great guy and forgave him for everything.
Seriously, he only did all this because he was in love with Lily. Had he not been, he probably would have remained a death eater. That is not a noble cause, that's Snape getting upset because the one person he loves was killed and he thinks it's unfair, regardless of how many other people he and and Voldemort killed.
Have any of you noticed that the 3 students he hated the most all have some thing in common with Lily?Harry-green eyes
Ron- red hair
Hermione- smartness (lily was head girl)
The 3 each have a quality that made up what Lily was known for. Just a little food for thought but I will always dislike him.
*****Kelly**** wrote: "Have any of you noticed that the 3 students he hated the most all have some thing in common with Lily?Harry-green eyes
Ron- red hair
Hermione- smartness (lily was head girl)
The 3 each have a qual..."
And don't forget that Hermione was Muggle-Born, just like Lily. Very interesting points there.
Yeah, I never noticed that!
Raine wrote: "I felt like Harry purposefully antagonized Snape though. I mean, yes, Snape started it and he holds a grudge against James but Harry didn't exactly do anything to ingratiate himself to Snape. I mea..."Um, what? Harry was an 11 year old child when he met Snape. Snape was an adult and Harry's teacher. It was not Harry's job to 'ingratiate' himself to Snape. It was Snape's job to treat Harry decently (a job he failed spectacularly at).
And when did Harry ever deliberately antagonize Snape? Maybe after years of being bullied by him, but that's it. At the beginning of the first book, he's nothing but polite and deferential to Snape, while Snape yells at him in front of the entire class and deducts point from Gryffindor for not knowing stuff he wasn't supposed to know in any case. Even after the trio suspect Snape is evil, they're polite to him to his face.
And that's not even getting into the fact that treating a child badly just because you disliked his father is WRONG, plain and simple. It may have been difficult for Snape to have Harry around, but that does not excuse the fact that he had no business punishing Harry for what James did to him.
Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even violent... It is implied that Severus was friendless and uncared for by his parents... "All you're saying is that Snape had an unhappy childhood. So?! Harry had a horrible childhood too. But he didn't spend his life making other people miserable. There are dozens of examples within the HP books of people who had it as bad as or worse than Snape, but still somehow turned out to be decent human beings. Lupin spent his life being shunned by society and being unable to get a job because he was literally a monster 3 nights a month. Yet when given the chance, he was a loyal friend, a good teacher, and a brave person. Dumbledore lived through multiple tragedies in his adolescence, and lost nearly his entire family, as well as the boy he loved, but somehow managed not to become a sociopath. Hagrid lost both his parents, and was expelled from school at the age of 13 for a crime he didn't commit, yet always managed to be a good person.
Frankly, whatever excuse people point to for Snape being such a horrible human being, the fact remains that he chose to be horrible. "It's your choices that make you who you are" is the motto of this series - and Snape made a bunch of negative choices. Yes, he had a bad life. But that didn't mean that he couldn't choose to be a better person.
Mitali wrote: "Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even violent... It is implied that Severus was friend..."You're forgetting that even though a bunch of those decent people had a crappy childhood, they were all loved (by their families); Lupin (especially), Dumbledore, James, Hagrid, Harry, etc. As for Sirius Black, he was just a rebel, plain and simple (he could have been loved by his family if he was a Slytherin). Snape had a very dysfunctional family; one that he didn't feel loved in. Harry may have not had his parents, but their love was around him all the time. Snape didn't have that. I'm not saying all he did was right, I'm just saying that you're missing one important thing from that comparison of horrible childhoods.
Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even violent... It is implied that Sev..."Harry's experience was just as bad as Snape's. His parents' love may have been around him symbolically, but in his everyday life, he had to live in a cupboard and constantly be told how worthless he was.
Hagrid's mother didn't love him - she abandoned him when he was a baby. We have no idea whether Lupin's parents loved him, considering he never talks about them at all.
And let's not forget the one person whose childhood was bad, and who couldn't get past it: Tom Riddle, aka Voldemort. Are you planning to suggest that Voldemort's evilness should be excused because his mummy died and his daddy didn't love him?
Mitali wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even violent... It is i..."It's obvious you don't know much about these stories. Are you on Pottermore? Because on Pottermore, directly from J.K. Rowling it tells about his family, and they loved him very much (that's why I said especially). Also, Hagrid's father loved him and he knew it.
Another fact I know is that Voldemort cannot loved because he was born under the effects of a love potion (which we all know creates obsession, not love). If anything, that's not realistic. Everyone wants love; but for a fictional bad guy, I think it's very suiting to go to extremes. Make's him something like a Devil.
I know that before Harry went to Hogwarts he had a crappy life... But his parents love with infused into his very being; even if he couldn't feel it all the time.
I would agree that we all choose who we are and what we do, BUT. Not all people deal with pain in the same way. Sorry fact, but it's so. The truth is, is that the human psyche is extremely complex and people react differently to different things. From my point of view Snape never stopped being what people told him he was; he never let himself think that he could be different. Unfortunately a lot of people have the same story in our world. To get out of a sick mentality like that takes A LOT of therapy. You say that he could have just CHOSE to think differently; just like that! But that isn't realistic. I wish life could be like that, but it isn't. I'm speaking to you as a person who knows what it's like to have a sick mentality and know that it's not easy to just change in one little second. Changing the way you view things and mentalities takes time. Snape had a damaged psyche. Like so many others in the world.
Snape is an Ebenezer Scrooge. Not Satan.
Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even vio..."Excuse me, I know the books just fine. I'm not on Pottermore, and I don't consider it relevant to the discussion. I'm discussing what was written in the books.
I didn't say Snape should have changed in a second. He had decades to change his ways. He didn't, because he didn't want to and never tried to. He agreed to protect Harry (physically - he had no problem abusing Harry emotionally) for Lily's sake, and he agreed to be a double agent for Dumbledore, because that's the only way Dumbledore would ever trust him. But he never stopped being a horrible person in general, because he never chose to be a good person at all.
I compared Snape to Voldemort to show that the only other person in this series who can't get over a bad childhood is the villain. So it doesn't say anything positive about Snape's character when you try to defend him by saying it's ok for him to be horrible because he had a horrible childhood.
And please, where did I say Snape was Satan? I know he's not, and never claimed he was.
Mitali wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Mitali wrote: "Anamta wrote: Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and po..."Well, Pottermore happens to count: J.K. Rowling wrote all that stuff about her characters that aren't in the books.
Voldemort is completely different than Snape. I will NEVER compare the two. I think that in some twisted way Snape was loved by his mother; but it was very dysfunctional and hardly shown. And who up and made you the expert on the human psyche. Even if he had DECADES to change his ways, the human psyche DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. People have to have to go through a lot to change their mentalities.
I'm just saying (by the illustration) that being cruel does not necessarily mean you are pure evil. I think Scrooge shows that; and Snape is most certainly a Scrooge.
Ok, maybe that was a bit harsh. All I know is that Lupin's family loved him very much. That's all. I just think it's low to compare Snape to Voldemort.
I think people always assume Snape just hated Harry because he looks or is like his father.To me it seems something like an excuse. Harry may have looked like him but he wasn't really like him (except for breaking the rules). I think he disliked Harry for more reasons for the whole "father" thing. For one thing, he could have disliked him for the fact he was ignorant about what he (Snape) did for him and why. Now, I know he didn't want anyone to know, but it makes sense if he did feel that way. For e.g. I know that when I'm upset about something and I seem to get angry about something really small, I just expect my parents to understand; but when they ask me what's wrong, I don't want to say. I also think Snape's rather jealous of Harry.
The thing is... I really wanted to like Snape. He was so much disliked throughout the series that I didn't find it surprising how much he disliked others in turn. As the series progressed, however, it seemed as if J.K. wanted me to hate him. Certainly, he was rude, and he was probably ill-justified for his actions... but for me personally, I like him simply because he didn't like Harry.
...Ah. I just typed that aloud. Yeah, I found Harry a little irritating as I progressed through the books, which is one reason it took me forever to reach the conclusion of the series. I didn't care about him as a character, which I believe to be a worst-case scenario when trying to enjoy an otherwise classic series.
Anyway, I would never favor Snape with arguments that he's particularly human or that he has a good deal of depth. I find him no deeper than Lupin, Ron, or even Tom Riddle. Regardless, I didn't mind Snape's antagonism, and I think it added to the overall plot rather than detract from it.
...Ah. I just typed that aloud. Yeah, I found Harry a little irritating as I progressed through the books, which is one reason it took me forever to reach the conclusion of the series. I didn't care about him as a character, which I believe to be a worst-case scenario when trying to enjoy an otherwise classic series.
Anyway, I would never favor Snape with arguments that he's particularly human or that he has a good deal of depth. I find him no deeper than Lupin, Ron, or even Tom Riddle. Regardless, I didn't mind Snape's antagonism, and I think it added to the overall plot rather than detract from it.
J wrote: "The thing is... I really wanted to like Snape. He was so much disliked throughout the series that I didn't find it surprising how much he disliked others in turn. As the series progressed, however,..."I find it interesting that you cared less about Harry as the series went on. I'd love to see a thread where you discuss that.
But the overall point isn't whether or not Snape belonged in the story. Obviously, he provided one on-going source of antagonism for Harry and a character whose motives were a source of debate from the first book. Snape was one of many aspects of the series that made an interesting concept even more interesting. There can be no doubt he needed to be there.
The point is, as a person, should Snape be liked, or even liked despite the person he is. Rowling's world is so wonderful that its characters take on a life so vivid to us readers that we actually discuss them in real-world terms. Yes, we know he's a character, but he has also achieved personhood.
Jeanie wrote: "The point is, as a person, should Snape be liked, or even liked despite the person he is. Rowling's world is so wonderful that its characters take on a life so vivid to us readers that we actually discuss them in real-world terms..."
You make a good point. Were I to meet Snape, I think it would be difficult for me to tell whether or not I considered him a friend. At the very least, meeting him would likely be uncomfortable- it seems that he disliked children in general, especially the almost brash nature of Gryffindor students. As a character in a book, I don't really lean towards liking or disliking Snape. If I ever knew him as a person, however, it may very well be a different story.
You make a good point. Were I to meet Snape, I think it would be difficult for me to tell whether or not I considered him a friend. At the very least, meeting him would likely be uncomfortable- it seems that he disliked children in general, especially the almost brash nature of Gryffindor students. As a character in a book, I don't really lean towards liking or disliking Snape. If I ever knew him as a person, however, it may very well be a different story.
J wrote: "The thing is... I really wanted to like Snape. He was so much disliked throughout the series that I didn't find it surprising how much he disliked others in turn. As the series progressed, however,..."Hm. Interesting. I know others who don't like Harry either. Personally, I don't really have an opinion on Harry; so think whatever you want! But I would say that he does have that cookie-cutter hero mold. Always wanting to save people, etc.
Personally, I'd LOVE a main character in literature that pushed the limits. Maybe a female character who isn't tough and her flaw is vanity (which is ALWAYS a secondary character's flaw)and wants to go on adventures but realistically thinks she can't. At the moment I can't think of how a guy main character could push the limits... I know there could be but I don't have a clear picture of what that looks like at the moment. lol
Hannah wrote: "Personally, I'd LOVE a main character in literature that pushed the limits. Maybe a female character who isn't tough and her flaw is vanity..."
A female character... who isn't tough??
You are well ahead of your time, Hannah.
A female character... who isn't tough??
You are well ahead of your time, Hannah.
J wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Personally, I'd LOVE a main character in literature that pushed the limits. Maybe a female character who isn't tough and her flaw is vanity..."A female character... who isn't tough..."
Thank you! :)
Snape was mean to begin with, we all detested him. He reminded us all of that one mean teacher in school. But in Half Blood and Deathly hallows we get to know his story. Still, that doesn't justify all the meanness he bestowed upon the kids. Okay, I'm ready to accept his behaviour towards Harry, but then why be so cruel to all others as well. And on the topic that Marauders bullied him and all, one word for that Childhood. People grow up, they change, and so did all the Marauders, but Snape didn't. But, that's what I feel, and there are more admirers of Snape than critics.
Huh, that's how it is.
Kriti wrote: "Snape was mean to begin with, we all detested him. He reminded us all of that one mean teacher in school. But in Half Blood and Deathly hallows we get to know his story. Still, that doesn't justify..."
Quite the contrary- I didn't understand as much why everyone ELSE hated him. Sure, he was a jerk, but the only time I genuinely didn't like what he was doing was in The Prisoner of Azkaban, where he attempts to get Sirius and a dementor in a relationship.
...
...Ah... yeah, that was a weird way of putting it.
Quite the contrary- I didn't understand as much why everyone ELSE hated him. Sure, he was a jerk, but the only time I genuinely didn't like what he was doing was in The Prisoner of Azkaban, where he attempts to get Sirius and a dementor in a relationship.
...
...Ah... yeah, that was a weird way of putting it.
yep you arei mean i didnt like him at the beginning i hated how he treated harry but then i understood why. he loved lily and she didnt and his family wasn’t always there for him, he was always bullied and i guess all of that changed him to how he is. but he was always loyal to dumbledore and even if you couldn’t see it he did take care of harry even though he gave him a hard time sometimes. his death was very heartbreaking and remember that memory i was in tears. snape is one of my favourite characters, he is so brave, intelligent and inspiring. i admire everything he has done honestly like he was so brave, he lied to voldemort and was always helping harry without him knowing. he is a beautiful character that will always be remembered for his bravery and heartbreaking but inspiring story.
River wrote: "yep you are :pi mean i didnt like him at the beginning i hated how he treated harry but then i understood why. he loved lily and she didnt and he’s family wasn’t always there for him, he was alway..."
I fully support this post.
(Psst, don't engage yourself in an argument with Snape haters; it will damage your soul~Advice from a Snape lover)
rachel nicole wrote: "Before I start, let me just say that I liked him, but that was where it ended. While yes, I understand that he was tortured by the Marauders, he was desperately and irrevocably in love with Lily, ..."I agree he went way over the line. I feel like if he just dint talk t harry very much thats fine but he was a straight up dick. I would have liked them to talk more. maybe harry asks about his mother and then they lay hints that snape loved her
No you are most definitely not. I really didn't particularly think he was that great. Yes he put his life at risk but I feel like Dumbledore sort of forced him to. He was a death eater and caused a lot of the problems involving Voldemort discovering the prophecy. It seemed like he did it over the guilt for Lily, instead of the good of the wizarding community. And he was especially terrible to Neville for no good reason as well as Harry and the other students who weren't in Slytherin. He did good for the wizarding community but he also did a lot that was bad. In the end he was good but not enough to appreciate him as much as others do (and not enough to give your child the middle name Severus). I think he tried to fix his mistakes out of guilt but didn't have particularly great intentions. Some of his actions were likeable but him as a person was not.
I didn't like Snape in the books but I just can't hate Alan Rickman so the films sort of took that dislike away.I kept hoping that in TDH he would say to Harry: "You really think you stand a chance against us, Mr. Cowboy?" in a german accent. :P
I didn't hate him but I also don't understand how much so many people seem to love him. I'm on middle ground with him because I understand his character and I like the complexity to him but I didn't actually like him.
No, I actually hated Snape but towards the end my hatred moved up to tolerance because of how he helped Harry. That was a great twist to the series ending.
He had reasons, not justification.He was bullied by James in school- he has a reason to want revenge and to makes Harry's life miserable, as well as tell Voldemort the prophecy and beg him to kill the kid an James in exchange for the wife. Justification? None.
James was loved and he was unpopular- reason to bully all Gryffindors in revenge. Justification? None.
His bad childhood and experience with bullies made him spiteful and want to hang out with future death eaters- reason to turn to the dark side. Justification? None.
He's an interesting character, of course, but in real life he'd be sent to prison. He gave the dark lord valuable information that led to the murder of two people. He was willing to sacrifice a child he never met and a clearly non-evil man he had a school grudge against to keep the wife alive. The choices he made caused his own pain. As a character, I think he's great. As a person, not so much.
I hated Snape through and through. Was his story tragic? Yes, but I still hated him.
Snape actually had more problems then just being bullied and not getting Lily. "Severus, whose father was neglectful and possibly even violent... It is implied that Severus was friendless and uncared for by his parents... As a child, Severus was apparently neglected and his parents often fought with one another. He could not wait to leave for Hogwarts at the end of the summer." That is from the Harry Potter wiki. This shows that Snape had problems at his household, too. When Snape went back to Hogwarts he wanted to be able to have friends and be a normal student, but James and Sirius didn't let him. Snape didn't feel safe at school or at home. Snape was an introvert as a child so he probably didn't have any real friends other than Lily, especially because Voldemort was rising and he was in Slytherin. He was alone and when he found out he could have friends and power if he joined the Death Eaters, obviously he would go for it. Also, back then most people didn't know the cruelty of Voldemort. That's how the Ministry was slightly corrupted. Snape didn't just not get the girl he wanted, he let her die and he felt responsible for that. He tolerated Lily and James being together, he liked it that Lily was happy. But her dying made it so that she couldn't be happy again (or that he couldn't see her be happy). He lost the girl he loved, he didn't just not get her.
Saying Snape only had a couple of problems is like saying Harry only had a mean teacher and a jealous friend, and we all know that isn't true