Christian Readers discussion
Is the God of the Old and New Testament exactly the same?
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Yes! I know alot of people who think He is different(all that sacrifice stuff). I've even heard the argument that Old Testiment God was before Jesus? Jesus - the same yesterday, today, & forever!! I think God is the same back in the Old Testiment as he is in the New. In Old Testiment times people had faith in God to fulfill His promises. Their belief was in a Messiah that would some day come. Our belief is in a Messiah who one day did come. Same Messiah.
The fury of God from Old Testament is present also in the New Testament, and the mercy of God, Father of Jesus, is present also in the genesis of the Scriptures. The same God, righteous and merciful, no dichotomy, no separation of character.
I am Covenantal (Calvinist) and so the question is moot and pointless. There is but one God and one Mediator and one method of salvation in the "History of Redemption".
God stays the same while everyone else changes.
Good one Steph.I'm shocked that people forget (or never notice) that the same God that allowed the Flood, The Plagues, Death of First Borns throughout Egypt...
Is about to totally destroy the majority of humanity 2 more times. Revelation 19:17-18
"Come gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of Kings, captains, mighty men, horses and their riders, and of all men.
And...
Revelation 20:9
Their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them...
I don't think Jesus is a pacifist.
Rod you speak true. Exist in Scripture some misteries like „already but not yet”, sufferings in this era, and the glory of the eschaton era, love and wrath(orge) of the Lamb, faith and bornagain, flesh and spirit,heaven and earth, good and evil, the work of salvation and the work of human, etc. The character of God and the character of human being is a mistery and remain ever the same.
Why caricaturize the image of God? Why cut off the wrath, righteous and holy wrath of God from Scripture?
In this manner proceed Marcion, a fellow christian from second century, anathematized by the Church for his theories, for his „theology”. He selected that epistles and Gospels of apostles, in which the wrath of God whre partially missing, and where the text was obvious about God righteous, wrath, orge, Marcion removed without problems. In this manner Marcion had formed the first New Testament, the first cannon. His approach was also a blessing for christian community because the New Testament was formed like answer of Marcion cannon, Scripture.
The Church and the christian tradition accepted from early times that God is good and righteous, his love and orge was evident, obvious , spectacular at the cross, in the person of Jesus Christ.
Ummmh? This is the first time i've ever heard anyone refer to Marcion as a fellow Christian.Marcion only approved of 11 of the New Testament books. He also claimed that Jesus only appeared human.
He also rejected the entire Old Testament.
By the time Marcion died around A.D. 160 half the church believed much of what he taught.
I believe the 66 books of the Bible are perfect and fit together without flaw. (except a few small numbers issues that may be cultural). The God of both testaments is whole and complete. The trinity is in agreement on everything.
The only blessing Marcion may of been: is that he made Christians actually have to think and read the Bible for themselves. Thank God for the gift of discernment.
I agree with you Rod, I have told that earlier. But Marcion had considered himself a christian, not a heretic. Yes, the Church rejected him,ostracized from the community of saints , but I think that Marcion considered himself a fellow of loving God, and a disciple of Jesus Christ. His hermeneutics was different toward the mainstream. Arius was considered by him and his fellows a disciple of Christ, and his church, the true church of Christ. The question is, who are the _ true Christians? Who has the true hermeneutic, who has Spirit?
It is true that Marcion was anathema, but history is written by the victors. All citing biblical, but who decides who is right?
The strong, the many, the wise? I think Jaroslav Pelikan is right in saying that we know the "heretics" in the writings of opponents, and vice versa ... you realize how objective Rod were writers? I am convinced that history was caricature, distorted, biased subjectivity is "historic" cowardice scribes, etc..
Only the Scripture and the Christian Tradition of Jaroslav Pelikan has the true objectivity, impartiality, treu history. All of the rest, I think is influenced by doctrine, interests, culture, and other factors.
I have yet to meet a human being that considers themselves a Heretic. That would be fun.
Rod wrote: "Good one Steph.I'm shocked that people forget (or never notice) that the same God that allowed the Flood, The Plagues, Death of First Borns throughout Egypt...
Is about to totally destroy the maj..."
That is unless one is Postmillinial...then the judgments have come and still in effect as Christ is not only King but fully present in His Church. Just a differing opinion.
Yep, I thought about that while I was typing this. I think Post millennialism totally changes God's endgame. It would be an interesting idea to attempt to read the Bible as if the Book of Revelation never existed. Maybe i'll try it someday. I've tried the historical and poetic approach to revelation: I didn't think it was possible.If this is eternity - then it sucks. The Church is a mess and Jesus is nowhere to be found. Islam is winning the war...is that in the Bible?
The Coptic Church don t accepted the book of Revelation, and the Church selected this book in the Canon of NT only in fourth century. They don t need this blessing, the hope of Parousia, the good news of Christus Victor, the victory of Jesus Christ above death, Satan and evil Profet.
I have always found that to be an odd question because there is only one God of the universe as revealed in the Old Testament. If one asks if the God of the New Testament is the same, it seems to indicate that they may think they have another God than the one and only God, which would indicate that they wonder if the NT has a false god, which I don't think they belive they do, so it just seems to be an odd question. It may be worded better to ask if God seems to behave exatly the same in the OT and NT - and the answer is no. That does not mean that there are two different gods though.
I do think Christians can survive without Revelation. Personally i think as long as you've got the Book of luke you are doing great. But I'm pretty sure almost everything in Revelation is found elsewhere in the Bible. Especially Daniel,Isaiah,John,Psalms...basically the whole rest of the Bible.
I'm pretty sure Revelation has always been accepted and not accepted by numerous theologians throughout the early church. The official list actually wasn't very official.
Theology is fun isn't it? :)
Is the Millenium mentioned anywhere else in the Bible? I'll have to go look.
You will find nothing about millenium. Are few verses about it, and we made thousands volumes of theology obout this obscure, irrelevant, little, mystery subject
Rod wrote: "Yep, I thought about that while I was typing this. I think Post millennialism totally changes God's endgame. It would be an interesting idea to attempt to read the Bible as if the Book of Revelatio..."Postmil does NOT read the book of Revelation as if it never existed, just that the final judgment was 70AD but the Resurrection, Final Return and Escaton Judgment is in the future (Rev 20).
This is eternity only in that we are children of God and have something of eternity already (1 John). The Church may be a mess but it is still the Bride of Christ and is being tried and purified to full unity (hold on may take a while). Jesus is ever increasing His Knowledge and His reign in the world. Islam cannot win as it is a powerless god of no consequence (idol for destruction). And no, the Lord God does not choose to partner man to His future plans, only to involve us in the redemption.
I'm aware that the Postmil's fully embrace Revelation. After chatting with a few of them for awhile the book seems to be irrelevant and not necessary. Just my opinion.I honestly don't think Jesus is increasing his knowledge and reign in the world. I could be wrong. I know Buddhism and Islam are increasing nicely though. And Atheism is doing incredibly well (Thank you Richard Dawkins) The thing i'm sure of is that the Jesus of the Bible is not increasing. Christianity is a mess and getting worse. Good luck finding 3 Christians who believe the same thing.
But i'm sure it will all work out in the end. :)
Isaiah 65:17-25 is an interesting possibility for the Millenium. "For the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the SINNER a hundred years old shall be accursed."
I sure don't recall any time of peace where Satan was not busy deceiving the nations. Anyone else noticed this?
Revelation 20:7
And when the 1000 years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations..."
Fun stuff to chat about. It seems people pretty much make up their minds before they read it. So I never expect to win any discussions.
Whenever someone can change my mind: i'm seriously impressed. I does happen on occasion. (I'm mostly impressed with myself that i'm not totally closed minded.) :)
In the opinion of Amos Oz, a fanatic is that person who thinks that can persuade, convert another person with different opinion, thought, belifs, ... :) Funny, no? If you need a „fanatic” to change your mind, are many milions in this world :)
I never try to convince anyone to a millennial view. I do not think it is all an issue of "end times" but an issue of ethics and theory of history. If one does not believe Christ has any power to reign on earth or is apathetic about exercising His Will (or least economical) then he will resort to a pessimistic idea of history and his ethic will denigrate to one of chaos and darkness without any hope except in death. I just cannot live that way.As to Satan deceiving nations, he really doesn't have to try very hard as sinful fallen men left to their own devices create enough chaos and generate towards the One on their own.
Good point Johnnie. It would be horrible to be a pessimistic Christian with no hope for the moment. Although the Christians of the Early church expected to be martyr'd and a few of the Disciples even knew that they would face persecution and death. How's that for optimism?
Revelation pretty much states chaos and darkness. That's where the rapture fits in.
I think Jesus was faced with chaos and darkness as his very close future. Yet he made a huge difference for the glory of God. Even grabbed the thief on the cross on the way out.
But...again I cannot convince you and don't really want to... we are no longer the dark times of the Early Church. We face little in way of challenges for martyrdom (at least no to the same degree as the inquisition). We have more religious liberty than any time in history and the Bible is not only well published but read. Churches are on every corner and in every nation. South American Revival is astounding not to mention Korea, Japan and some European revival. It takes years to undo what was lost in the Garden and that is done soul by soul. I don't accept the Rapture as a doctrine only as difference of theological opinion (I would say resurrection).
I think Malachi 3:6 and James 1:17 answers this question for us.What changed between the Old and New Testaments, respectively, was the covenants and dispensations, not God. He changed His mode of operations, communications, and how He revealed Himself to humankind.
But as for God, He remained the same.
ummmmmmmmmmmmmm hello people, yes!!! If God was different in the Old Testament then the New Testament, then He wouldn't be God. So, of course, the answer is yes! God is forever the same.
This is one of the funnest conversations I have with atheists/religious scholars. Anyone who has carefully read the Bible should have a very simple answer. anyone dealt with this besides me? Or have a good opinion?