When is it too much?

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "I'm going to stop arguing this point. Bottom line is, I have a solid belief that sex is a special thing that allows us to have children and that we've made a mockery of it because it feels good. It..."

I think I made this pretty clear in my longer post, but I'll say it again. I don't have a problem with your personal beliefs, even if I disagree with them. If you think sex is solely intended for making children––well, okay. That's an entirely different debate, and something I won't get into right now.

But, that's the thing. I feel that personal beliefs should be kept out of literature––or at least, they shouldn't be so prevalent that the author's religious/moral beliefs become overbearing. Writing is more about teaching than it is about preaching, in my opinion. (Rhyme not really intended, it just happened that way. Ha.) That is, I think books should be informative and teach us more about the human experience, but they shouldn't shove the author's beliefs down the reader's throat.

And same goes for judging other books and their authors. You're allowed to have your own beliefs of course, but don't expect other authors to share all of them. That's why I think it's unfair to judge what other people write about.

If you value readership over authenticity, then I'm not trying to change your mind about it. But, I would prefer to read and write books that convey what's more realistic, even if it means losing some readers here and there.

Although honestly, I don't think it's much of a problem––many popular YA books contain violence, language, and sexual themes. And people are also drawn to controversy over such things, which further contributes to a book's popularity.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "Sorry...I had always thought Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was YA...nice to have that clarified for me. Obviously, we don't know the author's intent, as he's very dead right now. But I can see how it..."

Yeah... I mean, there aren't really any teenagers in the book at all. Lisbeth is fairly young but she's still like, 20-something. :P

[[deleted user]]

I am not saying at all that we should get preachy. I am never going to do that in a book, where I say, "There is no sex because of my religious beliefs."

Because that would be stupid.

Rather, I am saying that I do not include sex in my writing because of these beliefs.

I am also not saying that we should ban all books with sex or have a witch-hunt and rape and kill all writers with sex scenes in their books. I believe in an open world where people can write whatever the heck they want. However, I believe we need to draw clear lines for audience divisions. I am arguing that, if you have sex in a book, it should no longer be marketed for a thirteen-year-old girl. It should, at the very least, be crystal clear that it is for older teens and adults. And if I pick up a book that is for a thirteen-year-old girl (because that is the audience I have been interested in understanding, despite being a sixteen-year-old male), I want to see themes that a thirteen-year-old girl would deal with. Some DO deal with the pressure of having sex, but I don't think it's all that common.

So...sex in books. Do whatever the [expletive] you want. I'm not going to stop you from writing a totally raunchy book that gives a detailed description of a night with a prostitute...as long as you market it for the right audience. I don't think it's cool to be making these young girls grow up too fast through literature.

As for your goal of making realistic stuff, I support you in that. I want my stuff to be realistic as well, but my characters to deal with problems that are not graphically described. Obviously, there is the loss of innocence that comes as the reader gets older, and that needs to be addressed, but it doesn't need to be addressed to a young teenager.

Maybe I'm too different on this issue. I don't write much YA. I think like a YA author, but I write middle-grade, so that could be part of our differing opinions.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Rebekka (ἈΝΆΓΚΗ) wrote: "Hooray! :D

Now let me make this perfectly clear: I don't hardly read ever. Well, not anymore, that is. I've read maybe ... eight books in the past two years. My interest is not in YA, but in wh..."

I agree. Authors don't write sex scenes solely to "turn readers on." I mean, some do. Sure. It depends on the author and the genre, and a lot of other factors. But a lot of sex scenes, especially in YA, depict the awkward "firsts" that many teenagers experience, or traumatic (sometimes unwanted) sexual experiences that many teenagers suffer. If subjects like rape (or any sexual abuse) were banned from YA literature, it would make many teens feel as if they were completely alone in that suffering.

[[deleted user]]

Hahaha...I'm sorry to appear sexist. Like I said, I am spending a lot of time reading books marketed for that audience. That's why I put that in there.

Okay, I would prefer that we keep things relatively mild for ALL FREAKING thirteen-year-olds. Happy? XD Or, heck, for that matter...avoiding sex in a pop-up book for three-year-olds.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "I am not saying at all that we should get preachy. I am never going to do that in a book, where I say, "There is no sex because of my religious beliefs."

Because that would be stupid.

Rather, I ..."

I'd tell you my problems with this, but I think Sherman Alexie has already pretty much said it all in this brilliant article: http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/0...

(And this was in response to an article called "Darkness Too Visible" by Meghan Cox Gurdon, which complained about all the darkness/sex/etc. in YA books, just to clear things up a little because he mentions her a few times.)

I love the whole thing, but I think this part pretty much sums up the issue I have with your point of view concerning marketing:

Does Ms. Gurdon honestly believe that a sexually explicit YA novel might somehow traumatize a teen mother? Does she believe that a YA novel about murder and rape will somehow shock a teenager whose life has been damaged by murder and rape? Does she believe a dystopian novel will frighten a kid who already lives in hell?

When I think of the poverty-stricken, sexually and physically abused, self-loathing Native American teenager that I was, I can only wish, immodestly, that I’d been given the opportunity to read “The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian.” Or Laurie Halse Anderson’s “Speak.” Or Chris Lynch’s “Inexusable.” Or any of the books that Ms. Gurdon believes to be irredeemable. I can’t speak for other writers, but I think I wrote my YA novel as a way of speaking to my younger, irredeemable self.

Of course, all during my childhood, would-be saviors tried to rescue my fellow tribal members. They wanted to rescue me. ... They wanted to protect me from sex when I had already been raped. They wanted to protect me from evil though a future serial killer had already abused me. They wanted me to profess my love for God without considering that I was the child and grandchild of men and women who’d been sexually and physically abused by generations of clergy.

What was my immature, childish response to those would-be saviors?

“Wow, you are way, way too late.”

And now, as an adult looking back, I wonder why those saviors tried to warn me about the crimes that were already being committed against me.

You can say that dark YA "shouldn't be marketed to thirteen-year-old girls" (and we won't get into the sexism aspect because you and Rebekka already seem to have dealt with that)––but I strongly disagree with that point of view, considering a lot of the horrible crap (to put it mildly) some young teenagers (of any gender) are going through. There are hundreds of teens out there who have been raped, abused, thrown out on the street––you name it.

Yes, reading about such dark issues might be disturbing to some people. But for kids who have gone through the same problems, it's a way to find comfort––to see that there are other adolescents struggling with similar challenges. And I don't think it makes sense to shelter kids from reading about things that might have already happened to them (or could happen in the future, or could happen to their friends, etc.) In my opinion, that is why the darkest YA books are often the ones that save a lot of teens' lives.

[[deleted user]]

[Expletive]!!!!!!!

It deleted my post. I have to go to work in two minutes. I'll argue with you guys tonight...about nine hours from now sound good?

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

My body is ready.

[[deleted user]]

Okay...I'm dead tired right now, and to avoid just exploding and calling you all nasty names (which I tend to do late at night when I get angry), I'll keep it relatively short...for a novelist.

Here is my basic belief on sex in YA and when it is okay...this is refined from eight hours ago when it was really a bunch of horse poo.

1. Explicit "recreational" sex in any book is wrong. This stems from religious beliefs. No way to get around this one with me. Sorry, guys.

2. Explicit sexual content is inappropriate for younger YA audiences, though you may catch me sitting on the fence for older YA (16+).

3. Sexual content I personally deem appropriate for the older YA includes situations where there is trauma involved. For example, I believe Speak to be a wonderful book, even though it does have some heavy topics in it. I believe these books are extremely beneficial to society.

4. Any sort of sexual references need to stay out of middle-grade and younger audiences. So...no pop-up books about blowjobs.

I think there might have been a couple other things...but I don't remember. I'm freaking tired. Count yourself lucky if I post here for a couple weeks...I'm headed to D.C. in eight hours, and need to get a couple hours of sleep in there. :)

[[deleted user]]

1. Like I said, I believe sex to be a sacred thing. This is because God created it to allow for children to be brought in this world, so that we can have families (and made it enjoyable so we would actually do it), which I believe are a central part of the plan God set up for us so we can live with Him again. If we treat sex like a casual pastime (as society appears to be doing), then we are treating something special as a way to gain pleasure. There's my religious preachiness for the night. You don't have to agree with me on this (or any) point.

2. I think they are simply not emotionally ready for it. Have you been in a junior high Health class? Sooooo freaking awkward to talk about sex, because they still find it an uncomfortable subject. You and I, because we are more mature, can talk about it maturely, while I don't think someone of that age can. I mean, I once was giving a presentation in middle school and imitated a favorite author's strategy for getting everyone to wake up. I got up there, looked at the class, and shouted, "SEX!" You have no idea how many faces went red with discomfort. Because they are not emotionally ready to handle the topic.

3. Oh, man, where to start? I'll start with how I saw the effects of the book Speak. I actually met a girl two years ago who was a victim of many sexual abuse situations in her family, and she read that book and could really relate to the chick who was raped. I know it helped me, because my biological father raped my mother multiple times, and it was good to understand what my mom went through in the following years, and how it affects the way we see the world.

4. See number two, I guess. I'm surprised you don't feel any discomfort about teaching a little kid about sexual intercourse.

Okay, you're reading WAY too much into my choice for an example audience. I picked thirteen-year-old girls because the novels I am currently reading are geared towards that age group. I posted in this topic because of some of the things I have read, which have given me a reason to think about sex in YA fiction. And I can tell you, I wouldn't want my future children to read some of the slutty trash I have picked up lately. Some of it is just too much. And the more recent the book, the edgier it gets. So the fiction I am reading for thirteen-year-old girls is slowly getting more questionable.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "Okay...I'm dead tired right now, and to avoid just exploding and calling you all nasty names (which I tend to do late at night when I get angry), I'll keep it relatively short...for a novelist.

He..."

Time for some long ranting!

1. Explicit "recreational" sex in any book is wrong. This stems from religious beliefs. No way to get around this one with me. Sorry, guys.

Okay, no one ever said they were trying to change your religious beliefs. I don't have a problem with people saying "I don't like reading about recreational sex in books because it's against my religious beliefs and thus it makes me uncomfortable." All right, that's fine. What I dislike is people saying "it is always, definitely wrong because my religion says so." It's not your business to tell other writers that what they're doing is "wrong." Perhaps it's not the same choice you would make, but that doesn't mean it should never be done.

2. Explicit sexual content is inappropriate for younger YA audiences, though you may catch me sitting on the fence for older YA (16+).

Again, I'll point you to that Sherman Alexie article. I think it doesn't make much sense to ban kids from reading about sex, when they already know about it and may have even already had sexual experiences. Life is different for every teenager, and you have no way of judging what they can handle and/or what they've been through. If a book makes a kid uncomfortable, she/he can always just put it down. But I don't think it's fair to make such a broad generalization about what's "appropriate" for an entire age range.

3. Sexual content I personally deem appropriate for the older YA includes situations where there is trauma involved. For example, I believe Speak to be a wonderful book, even though it does have some heavy topics in it. I believe these books are extremely beneficial to society.

I agree that traumatic sex incidents are especially important in YA. I think that's something that a lot of teenagers have suffered through, and it's important for them to read books such as Speak and realize they are not alone. So, at least we can agree upon that.

However, I also think it's important for YA books to cover the topic of consensual/recreational sex. I believe many teenagers also have to understand that they are not alone in their sexual curiosities and experimentation. While I don't necessarily urge teenagers to experiment with sex, I don't discourage it either. It's their choice, their bodies, so on and so forth. I don't like that there's such a taboo on the topic of sex (especially teenage sex), because it actually causes more problems rather than preventing them.

Numerous studies will show you, for example, that abstinence-only health education doesn't lead to abstinent behavior. It has no effect on teen pregnancy rates. And why? Because these teenagers don't know what they're doing when they decide to have sex, because they haven't been taught. They haven't learned. And YA books, while fictional, can help contribute to this education. It can teach teenagers what is and isn't safe.

4. Any sort of sexual references need to stay out of middle-grade and younger audiences. So...no pop-up books about blowjobs.

Well, I also agree with this to a certain extent. But it's mostly because I don't see much of a point in little kids knowing about sex––since it will most likely just seem "yucky" to them, and irrelevant to their lives. Sex is more prevalent in YA because young adults actually deal with sexual issues quite often.

[█║ ✕ Angel ‟]

Well. I think it is a bit too much when they add just words like "Penis" And so forth. I myself read a lot of adult books. What if a young kid grabs a book with sex in it? And they think its okay?

I think personally. It's fine, but not for the younger kids. I myself am Fifteen. I love adult books, but not when they get a lot into sex. But it is mostly my fault because I picked up the book.

So I don't know. I'm a complicated person.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Rebekka (ἈΝΆΓΚΗ) wrote: "..."

Ahhh are you okay? XD

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

♥Angel♥ ~Miss Odair~ wrote: "Well. I think it is a bit too much when they add just words like "Penis" And so forth. I myself read a lot of adult books. What if a young kid grabs a book with sex in it? And they think its okay? ..."

Well, you never really know when a kid is going to accidentally pick up an adult book, but I guess that risk just has to be taken. It's pretty much the same way with music and movies and TV shows. All kids are going to encounter things that are not intended for their audience. Usually such things are going to go over their heads, and I think it's unlikely that they'll read adult books and fully understand them––and then also think that what's happening in the book is something they should do.

I mean, when I was in middle school or so, I sometimes read adult books without foreseeing how graphic in content they were going to be. But I didn't say, "Oh hey I'm gonna try this stuff!" Usually it either confused me, or it actually taught me some things I didn't know ... But anyway, I guess my point is, I think kids are generally smart enough to realize that not everything that happens in a book "should be" something they should do. If that makes sense.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Rebekka (ἈΝΆΓΚΗ) wrote: "Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Rebekka (ἈΝΆΓΚΗ) wrote: "..."

Ahhh are you okay? XD"

NO. Your radiant, superior thoughts have given me a bad case of intellectual frustration. >:I"

Oh pish posh, your posts are brilliant. ;)

[tesni]

Taylor Mefford wrote: "1. Like I said, I believe sex to be a sacred thing. This is because God created it to allow for children to be brought in this world, so that we can have families (and made it enjoyable so we would..."

Not going to say much because Rebekka and Brigid have got pretty much everything covered between them, but just one thing I have a major issue with-

And I can tell you, I wouldn't want my future children to read some of the slutty trash I have picked up lately.

I have such an issue with this; not with your not wanting your children to read that, it’s entirely your call, but the way that you refer to it as “slutty trash.” To call someone or something slutty or anything along those lines is to reinforce the patriarchal ideal that a woman’s worth depends upon her sexual status, which is hugely, hugely damaging.
I’m curious for examples; which books do you consider to be “slutty trash?” What must the characters do to have their books considered as such? Without derailing the conversation too much, may I ask, even, how you define the word “slut” in itself, and in what context do you would ever perceive it justifiable to use?

Also- I’m pretty sure I’ve said so before in this thread- not all sex in literature is trash. Far, far from it. As much as sex can be, as the others said, dark, or traumatic, or anything else- it can be handled tastefully while done so. And when it's portrayed in a more positive light, then it can be done so beautifully. Sex, or the portrayal of it in literature and film and drama or whatever- can be incredibly artful. I don't know if what I'm saying is relevant, really, because I don't really read YA these days, and if what I say rings true with teenage fiction or if I just read too much Sappho.

What I’m reading from this is that you think it’s okay for older teens to read about sex in a traumatic/non-consensual scenario, but not one that’s consensual/ “recreational”, as you put it, isn’t, is that right? If that’s the case, I’m very curious about your logic.

[Baxter, butts butts butts]

Being tasteful is for lamebrains, anyway.

[Jayda]

I personally find descriptive sex scenes as distasteful. If your characters must have sex, fade to black. Then you can create a 'deleted scene' for those who actually care enough to read a more detailed version of it and post it on your website.

I skip sex scenes. I don't find them nice or cool at all, and I don't find that they add to the plot.

Characters having sex may add to the plot, but I don't need the details - just to know that it happened.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

T e s n i wrote: "Taylor Mefford wrote: "1. Like I said, I believe sex to be a sacred thing. This is because God created it to allow for children to be brought in this world, so that we can have families (and made i..."

I agree ... slut-shaming drives me nuts. And if you ask me, there is far too much of that in YA.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Jayda wrote: "I personally find descriptive sex scenes as distasteful. If your characters must have sex, fade to black. Then you can create a 'deleted scene' for those who actually care enough to read a more det..."

That's what I tend to do if I have to include a sex scene in a story ... although honestly, part of that comes from being rather clueless when it comes to sex. :P

Anyway, I agree that the most important thing is making it clear that the characters had sex––even if there is no explicit detail. It doesn't really have to be there in many cases.

I don't think it's necessarily "distasteful" to include descriptions, though. Sometimes the details of what happens are important to character development; they're not always just meant to be "nice or cool" (although sometimes that's the intention). As a reader, one is always free to skip over them––as you choose to do––so I don't see why an author shouldn't include it, if this author thinks it is important to the story.

[Jayda]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Jayda wrote: "I personally find descriptive sex scenes as distasteful. If your characters must have sex, fade to black. Then you can create a 'deleted scene' for those who actually care enough to r..."

It's definitely important to make it clear. For instance, I'm reading the first Vampire Diaries book right now and something happened between them but I seriously don't know if they just spent the whole time staring into each others eyes and talking, or if they slept together. So, it's super important, if they do have sex, to make it clear :P

I see what you mean. I just find it distasteful because, just like in movies, I find it kinda gross to watch 2 people having sex... or reading about it. I know they're just characters, but it feels as if it'd be like me sneaking around watching people have sex... Which is completely and undeniably wrong :P

I don't know. I find it distasteful to put descriptive sex in books. I feel like it really takes away from it. Not the emotions that the characters experience, but the description of the actual act. I don't need to know exactly what they did, nor do I want to. I feel like it oftentimes detracts from the story, and I always skip over those scenes.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Haha yes, exactly! I've read a lot of books that were so vague, I really didn't understand whether the characters had actually done it or not ...

Yeah, I get what you mean. It also kind of makes me feel like I'm "invading." It's definitely the same way when I write as well. I feel strange even writing about like, kissing scenes. Haha.

Well, I get where you're coming from. I agree that in some cases, it can take away from the story. There are some cases in which it works, but yeah ... there are definitely times when a sex scene is unnecessary or really awkwardly written––and yeah, those seem like too much information. XD

[Yaa]

In some books I root for the two main characters to get together. And when I say get together I mean kiss and admit their undying love for each other. Sometimes I just start chanting "Kiss her! Kiss her! Kiss her!" But then when this happens (the kiss) there's this awkward tension whenever they kiss. It's like there's this urge to go further than just a kiss. And then suddenly that sexual tension overshadows the whole story and you read about those characters trying to get into each others pants, overshadowing the whole plot.

In some books when a love triangle is introduced and the main love interest (aka the girl) goes around kissing everyone to see who she likes the most it gets irritating.

Another thing I find incredibly repugnant is when the main character in some YA novels *cough* Zoey from House of Night *cough* CONSTANTLY has sex. There should be a limit.

[Jayda]

Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Haha yes, exactly! I've read a lot of books that were so vague, I really didn't understand whether the characters had actually done it or not ...

Yeah, I get what you mean. It also kind of makes m..."

Hahaha, kissing scenes can be so awkward... especially when I have adult family friends, guy friends, or my parents read my books :P Awkwardddd. The most intense mine has ever gotten was in Alive, but I think I cut that out while editing cause it was unnecessary haha

Yeahh, exactly. Like 50 Shades of Gray or whatever that book is? I flipped through it while in a store at the airport and HOLY FREAKING HECK. That book is gross. Like porn. I read 2 lines and it felt wrong to read. And you should've heard on the plane how many 45+ year old women were into it!!!

Anyway, yeah :) Sometimes sex can add to the story, but I prefer to just know the emotions they experience rather than reading about the actual act. I feel like the emotions add a bit more of an impact, but who knows? Maybe I just haven't found anyone that I've read where I've found it tasteful and helps add to the plot haha :)

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Auburn wrote: "In some books I root for the two main characters to get together. And when I say get together I mean kiss and admit their undying love for each other. Sometimes I just start chanting "Kiss her! Kis..."

Ugh, House of Night. x_x Well, I don't necessarily have a problem with Zoey always having sex. What I take issue with is that she has so much sex, yet (as far as I can recall) the Casts never talk about her using any kind of protection or contraception or anything like that––yet she never gets STDs or gets pregnant. It's like she lives in a magical fairytale world where she can just have unprotected sex all the time, and nothing bad ever happens. In cases like that, I feel that sex is not being portrayed realistically, and therefore it isn't really sending a good message. But anyway.

My bigger problem is that Zoey slut-shames other girls. Like, at one point she's in a relationship with three or four different guys, and it's ridiculous. But then she's still walking around commenting about how Aphrodite is apparently such a "ho"––and Aphrodite only has one boyfriend at a time, I'd like to point out. Like really, Zoey keeps calling this girl a slut, solely for the reason that she has had sex before. Putting her hypocrisy aside ... that's just not cool.

[Brigid ✩, No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader.]

Jayda wrote: "Brigid *Flying Kick-a-pow!* wrote: "Haha yes, exactly! I've read a lot of books that were so vague, I really didn't understand whether the characters had actually done it or not ...

Yeah, I get wh..."

Urgh, I know what you mean. It's like:

Friend/Parent/Grandparent/Younger sister: Hey, can I read your book?
Me: *Thinks of intense makeout scene in book* UHHHHHHHHHH. MAYYYBEEEE...?

And then people read it and I just want to be like...



ANYWAY.

Bahaha I actually read that whole book. Yeah, it was just .... horrible. It was porn, and I'm not sure why people are even considering it "literature." I mean, it's actually Twilight fanfiction, except the author just changed the names. It's like, if people want to read pornographic fanfiction, that's why the Internet exists ... why are they spending their money on that?! lol. Well, I guess that's why it's mostly adults reading it and not as many teenagers––since most teenagers have probably already read that stuff on the Internet somewhere. :P Anyhow, I just find it tremendously frustrating.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Regardless of how much detail there is, what matters most is emotion.

[[deleted user]]

Okay, I'm on vacation in D.C. right now, and I'm glad I got wi-fi for long enough to see this...let me clarify. But I'll really jump back in when I get back home on the 23rd.

For your information, I typically don't use the word "slut" very often. I find it derogatory in every way...hence my use of it in this conversation. I didn't mean to offend anyone by its usage here -- I merely wanted to use a fitting word to describe some of the YA I have read in recent months. When I do choose to refer to something as slutty, I mean that it is overly focused on sex. There are some books (I'm really sick right now and can't recall any at the moment) that are so focused on sex that it makes me sick. They don't actually have to be naked for me to be uncomfortable. I read a YA dystopia (Delirium) that was supposed to view love as a disease, but when this girl falls in love, all she can think about is sex. This one was much more mild than others, but I just wish I didn't have to read about others' desire to climb in bed with someone.

Again, didn't mean to bother anyone with my word choice. I just use it to refer to works/ideas that are overly sensual. I actually never apply the term to people. So I am not slut-shaming -- merely expressing my disgust for raunchy YA.

In conclusion, sex is not all there is to a story. It won't make or break a YA book. But it does have a place, and I find this place is in those books that are meant to educate or comfort (as in Speak) rather than entertain.

[Tiffany]

I don't think their is a cut-off age for anything anymore. Take a good look at the people surrounding you to see what I mean