A Clash of Kings
discussion
Why I can't hate Cersei

Without getting into spoilers, I'd be interested to see how your opinions of many of the main characters changes across the series.


She protects them with her life because they are her source of power.
"People argue that she is a poor mother- "just look at Joffrey!" but if you look at Myrcella and Tommen, it's clear that isn't so."
I get the impression Cersi doesn't exactly spend much quality time with them and so has had less influence on them - Joffrey has always been her favorite and the heir so she focused on him. Also, Myrcella and Tommen are both younger than Joffrey and therefore she hasn't had as much chance to corrupt them.
Still, I also believe that some people are more susceptible to bad influences than others. Joffrey is obviously very susceptible.
I don't blame Cersi for not loving Robert though. Arranged marriages were commonplace in the middle ages and not always successful - Matilda and Geoffrey come immediately to mind. But even so, that has no bearing on whether she's a good person or not.
"This is often considered historical fiction, and in the medieval time frame that it could fit into, incest was actually quite popular."
I beg to differ! What are you basing this off of? It was not unusual for cousins to marry but SIBLING incest was considered just as taboo in Europe during the middle ages as it is today. Some cultures, such as Ancient Egypt, did practise sibling marriages but this was in BCE and before Christian ideals.
But I do agree that Cersi is human, if that's what you're trying to say - and although she is a terrible person, I can understand how and why life has made her that way. That is what is so great about the series - the characters are not black and white or one dimensional. They're human and realistic.
My dad always says the best stories have the best "bad guys". That is definitely true here.
I echo what John has said as well.

She plays the game just like everyone else and a lot of the things she says and does make total sense, but get pushed aside purely for the fact that she's a woman so of course she doesn't know how to get things done.
Cersei is facisnating and one of my favorite characters in the series. The hate she gets from all corners of the fans is just sort of disturbing. Disliking her, fine, although there are few "lawful good" characters in this series that survive very long, but hating her outright with a passion and letting a lot of the more disturbing characters pass with flying colors is problematic to say the least.

Now we're just getting into the age old debate of nature versus nurture. Personally, I think it's a bit of both - Joffrey was predisposed to such behavior but neither of his parents were exactly role models and this only encouraged his behavior.
"She plays the game just like everyone else"
Does she? I won't argue that she's not intelligent but mostly, I find she allows her emotions and obsession with power to get in the way. This is from A Storm of Swords so I'll use the spoiler tag: (view spoiler)
I agree she is fascinating - and I can see why she would be a favorite in the sense that she is one of the most interesting characters. Just not the most likeable.

Cersei is not a Christian. Christianity does not exist here and I did not pinpoint Europe in the comment either.
Although her children provide her with a source of power, they are also the reason she needs power.
Of course none of the characters, that's my point. I think it hard to blatantly dislike her because every single character has flaws.
Part of the reason I like her is because she is dislikeable. I would definitely consider her to be among my top favourites, second to Daenerys.


Lots of people say Cersei is one of, if not THE most despicable characters in the series, apart from perhaps Joffrey. I disagree.
Cersei is c..."
I love Cersei! I think she's a great character, one of Martin's best, among many great ones. To be honest, I love all the Lannisters. The only ones I'm not big on are the Iron Islands people, Stannis, and the Martels.
Chris Ward


I think the great skill that Martin has is that there are very few characters that people feel nothing for. The sign of a great, great writer (though I wish he'd get a move on with the next one!)
Chris Ward

Yeah, I write, but I'm not in that league. It's like Premiership vs League 2 or something!
Chris Ward

You're right, he does set the bar really high. I don't think I'll be able to read much else in the genre now.

I guess he influences me a fair bit, in that I don't worry about putting swear words in my stuff or randomly killing off major characters with no warning. I bow down to the master though. Just started reading the fifth book and it's pretty good so far.
Anyway, best stop derailing the thread... Cersei, yeah she's cool!



Cersei is not a Christian. Christianity does not exist here and I did not pi..."
You're just being pedantic in order to avoid answering my question. YOU brought up the point of the series being based on real medieval times and the ideals of the middle ages in real history were greatly influenced by Christianity, hence my mention of it.
You claimed sibling incest was "quite popular" in real medieval times. Again, I ask what you are basing this off of?

Cersei is not a Christian. Christianity does not exist here a..."
Okay I wasn't trying to start anything here. I just noticed that with most of the historical fiction I've read based off of the time, there was much speculation (not proof, I didn't say that)about incest. I was saying that as far as time periods go, it might be the closest to that, WITHOUT the Christian values. I think you're right, I was just making an observation based off of what I've read. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm only stating an opinion. I never said it was based off of medieval times either. I was thinking more in the terms of knights and the clothing, the manner of war, etc. rather than religion.
I'm kind of done with this anyway, I don't see the point in arguing over fiction. Clearly their values are slightly different than the majority of people today.
Celise wrote: "I just noticed that with most of the historical fiction I've read based off of the time, there was much speculation (not proof, i didn't say that) about incest"
I suppose you're talking about The Other Boleyn Girl, and maybe King Arthur? :P The incest was still considered very taboo. The only reason Targaryens get away with it in Game of Thrones is because they're from a different culture than Westeros, with different genetics. And dragons. You can do whatever you want if you have dragons (including polygamous incest). Even then, the implication is that society did not approve, inherited madness resulted from the generations of incest, and Aegon's heirs initially had a lot of trouble with the conquered people b/c they were so different.
Cersei being an interesting, complex character does not condone the incest. Personally I think Cersei fails at life. Since I've read the whole series so far, I can say that da bitch be crazy. However, she is SO villianous and complex and crazy that she is one of my favorite characters to read about -- wait till book 4, she gets POV chapters -- even if I'm tearing my hair out the whole time.
I suppose you're talking about The Other Boleyn Girl, and maybe King Arthur? :P The incest was still considered very taboo. The only reason Targaryens get away with it in Game of Thrones is because they're from a different culture than Westeros, with different genetics. And dragons. You can do whatever you want if you have dragons (including polygamous incest). Even then, the implication is that society did not approve, inherited madness resulted from the generations of incest, and Aegon's heirs initially had a lot of trouble with the conquered people b/c they were so different.
Cersei being an interesting, complex character does not condone the incest. Personally I think Cersei fails at life. Since I've read the whole series so far, I can say that da bitch be crazy. However, she is SO villianous and complex and crazy that she is one of my favorite characters to read about -- wait till book 4, she gets POV chapters -- even if I'm tearing my hair out the whole time.

I suppose you're tal..."
That's fair. I can agree with that. I just think that the incest isn't so bad in this book because it's not a real place. However, I find it terrible in real life. Just the way I deal with it I guess. And yes, The Other Boleyn Girl and King Arthur, as well as Wideacre and a few others.





Her relationship with her brother/twin is exactly because she KNOWS it is wrong. It is a way to control things that are out of control. Her father says "jump" she jumps. Her father say "marry and fuck" thats what she does, to retain any control she has to do something the furtherest from his wishes. She uses her sex to control people, but to be fair that is what she has been taught to do.
It is stated that as a child she amd Jamie were so alike they could switch roles for a day. She is not "permitted" to take up the sword or be free as a man, so she uses what she does have.
She does love Jamie but not the way he would like her to. She needs him, which delights and disgusts her. He see the best in her while knowing her faults but she trusts no-one. She is willing to kill and die for what she wants. She is a product of Tywin Lannisters cold and brutal fathering. Her mother dying having Tyrion, leaving her without the warmth or motherly affection is the primary reason she hates him so much, and why she spoils her own children.

Personally, I find her describing the difficulties she's had to endure as little more than self-pity. No amount of neglect from Robert can excuse all the people's she's killed or lives she's ruined. And really, she was cheating on him the entire time too, fathering three incestuous babies behind his back. I know, he must have fathered a hundred bastards, but still...
As for her loyalty to her children, yes, she's committed to them. But she's also not above using them and manipulating them to achieve her ends. That is certainly the case with Joffrey. Her aim was to make him king so she could rule as Queen Regent. The rest I shall avoid saying out of respect to the group leader, no spoilers beyond Clash right? Done!

I did say I would remain open to the possibility that I will grow to hate Cersei in future books. I did feel some of that for her in the first book but I think I numbed it out of my brain because I found her character so interesting in the sequel. I am having difficulty trying to decide if I like her only as a character now or if the good qualities I listed before (I am now reading the third book, so things are slightly different) are still applicable. I think everyone is going to have a slightly different opinion on her that partially depends on which book you are on, if you watch the show at all, if you read then watched or watched then read, etc.


No I haven't reached the wedding scene yet. I've been far too afraid to read it so I've been slowing down. I heard it's a tear fest and I know of a few deaths I'd like to put off.


I did say I would remain open to the possibility that I will grow to hate Cersei in future books. I did feel some of that for her in the first book but I th..."
Oh, yes! I can't really back up my argument without spoilers, but I think you will definitely grow to hate her. Which does not mean I don't enjoy her character, because I do. I personally think she grows from run of the mill villainy to all out crazy as the series goes on.

I think you are right Jessica. Although, I can see how her upbringing would make her that way. Not only is she just as smart as her brothers, if not smarter in some ways (think of how well she challenges Tyrion to keep up with her!), she would be one of the few women who would have had a taste of what it would have been like if she had been a man, during those stolen days masquerading as Jaime. To be that smart, only to be told that she had no purpose except as a womb and an ornament, would be maddening, knowing what she was missing. So, my thinking is she set out gather the same kind of power that was available to a man, despite her sex. However, because she only has male role models for the use and manipulation of power, she attempts actions that would work for a man (because she's never had anyone to teach her the female equivalent), but are doomed to failure because of her sex. So, here she is, a young vibrant woman, married off to a man who didn't even have the courtesy to come sober to their marriage bed, who feels like she is being treated as property or as a child simply because of her sex, she's going to look for ways to assert and revenge herself on them all. Problem is, again, she's using male tactics, which backfire because the behaviours are considered unacceptable or inappropriate for females.
None of this, of course, explains the whole incest thing, although maybe there's some psychological flaw in both her and Jaime (well, duh, right?)to account for it, which might have set off her personal journey and his. After all, if Cersei was having a grand old time pretending to be Jaime when they were kids, was Jaime also enjoying being Cersei?

I think you are right Jessica. Although, I can see how her upbringing would make ..."
Sounds like your blaming the men in her life for her actions. This is why I find it odd that anyone would say there's a double standard. Every argument I've heard has been in her defense. Having read into book 4, I can tell you she really isn't that smart. In fact, her instincts are always to be brutal and to condemn, and her attitude is constantly one of persecution.
It seems to me that people are going out of their way to pity her and justify her when she's really just a cruel and selfish person. Where do you think her son gets it from? Like him, she's got no real thoughts about anyone other than herself. Even when she talks of her children, she can't stop using them and positioning them as subjects. She insists she's the victim, but that only demonstrates her narcissism.
Examples: After all her plotting and the people she murdered to get her son on the throne, she begins to lapse into self-pity and says how responsibility was thrust on her when things start to go bad. When the peasants begin to starve, she basically says "let them eat cake" and scoffs when Tyrion tells her it could result in revolt. Even when King's Landing was being besieged and people were dying, all she could do was complain about how life has treated her and take it out on Sansa.

The Lannisters adhere all to the same values and goals clearly shown in Tywinn Lannister's behaviour: e.g. family honor, striving to secure and extend the Lannister's wealth, land and political position/influence by any means available and necessary.
Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion pursue these goals from the very beginning. They are all shown to take what they want and do what they wantin order to secure their position. The only difference is in the kind of actions available to them. Jamie can excell as a knight, Tyrion - bereft of this possibility - has to rely on his cunning.
Cersei's range of possible actions is very much confined by her gender role. Neither can she by a knight (like Jamie) nor a ruler (like Tyrion). She cannot take up fighting nor can she ever take part in the official political contests. She can only scheme and influence behind the curtains. She can use her children - as her father uses his - her husband, her brother, etc.
Tyrion is the first one shown to glance at things - once in a while - from a different perspective. Being a 'freak' he is forced to a different view of live. Martin shows us almost from the very beginning, how this different point of view makes Tyrion become more and more 'human'.
At some point Jamie also experiences an event in his life that forces him to see things in a different light. He simply cannot go on like he did before. This is his chance for character development and Martin does a nice thing with showing the character's doubts and turmoils during this phase.
Cersei on the other hand remains - as Matthew pointed out - through all the events the same. She plots and schemes, she wails in self-pity and complains.
Maybe this is the character that has to stay the same through all the mess and chaos Martin creates, just to show what happens when you don't change...

And manipulate and murder the people who get in her way, especially people who cross her or try to do the right thing.

No one ever always makes the right choices. Why are we not bothered when the men make poor choices and it costs people's lives?


First of all, she wasn't forced into the game against her will, she chose it because she wanted the power for herself. That's why she had John Arryn poisoned, it's what she had planned for Robert too except that he seemed to do himself in, and its why she condemned Ned Stark.
None of this was forced on her, she made it all happen so she could be queen regent and rule through her son. Her complaints to the contrary are just her being narcissistic. Sure this is a game men play, but none of them are quite so ruthless or selfish as she is. And none of them blame everybody else for their decisions either.
And second, who's letting the male characters off the hook here? I keep hearing this argument being made but I have yet to see an example of an evil male character being given a free pass. Pyter Baelish is a bastard, but that seems to be the common perception. Joffrey is a bastard too, but people openly hate him. Tyrion and Jaime both have their redeeming side, even if it does take a lot to bring it out of them. So where's this double standard I keep hearing about?

Obviously if you take part in this game of thrones, it will bring the worst out in you. Some choose to do so from the onset, others are forced into it by birth or circumstances.
But that's what the whole series is about for me: a whole world in turmoil and all kinds of people thrown into it. What will they do? How will they act? How will it change them?
And actually I don't think Cersei is worse or more ruthless than Pyter Baelish or Tywin Lannister.

Obviously if you take part in this game of thrones, it w..."
Definitely not Pyter, he's a total bastard. Hate that guy, at least by book three (no spoilers!). But Tywin, I don't recall him doing anything particularly ruthless; other than being a cold and culating sort. The only real ruthlessness I saw was in his cruelty to Tyrion, but other than that, he seemed pretty straightforward.

Like almost everybody in the novels - I think - Tywin also strives to extend his family's political influence and power. And he is quite calculating, controlling and ruthless about it.
Even before the events in the first novel - still during Robert's rebellion and Tywin's time as Hand of a Targaryen - he stays in the background and when he sees that Robert will probably be victorious, murders the Targeryen children (including an infant) and presents their bodies to Robert to show his fealty. An act worse than everything Cersei has ever done.
He uses his brother and every one of his children to his political ends. He does not care for what they want or what live they would like to have. And he is ready to sacrifice each and every one of them in this game of power.
He weds Cersei to Robert - to secure the Lannister's position in the new political order. He treats her like a pawn, like a piece on a game board.
When he finds out about Tyrion's liaison with Tysha, he has her captured, raped by a whole garison of men in front of Tyrion and forces Tyrion to do the same.
If this is not ruthless, I don't know what is.

Like almost everybody in the novels - I think - Tywin also strives to extend his family's political influence and..."
Ah yes, forgot about all that, especially the murdering of the Targaryen children and how he had Tyrion's woman raped. But I digress, I don't see how Cersei is to be excused for her actions if Tywin or Pyter is being judged as a rotten character.
Marina wrote:I've just finished "A Feast for Crows" and far from hate, I find Cersei an awesome character, a woman in a man's world, an Elizabeth Woodville-like queen, a mother doing everything to improve the life of her children."
Again, the double-standard argument, but you're ignoring all she actually does. She doesn't fight for her kids as much as use them, and her only motivation is her own power. No one cheers the men in the story who are motivated by just that. Sure they're interesting, but they're not redeemable or decent.
I think if anything, the fact that she's a woman is working in her favor, in that people can say she's somehow a victim because she's in a man's world. How does that make her murdering people, using her son to exercise power, being cruel to her brother, sleeping with people to buy loyalty or having an incestuous relationship with Jaime okay?

My point was to show that she is not. She is as bad or good as everyone else around her. She just isn't worse and certainly not the most despicable character in the novels.
Maybe instead we could ask:
Is there any character in those novels - apart from Ned maybe - who manages to stay decent throughout the events?

My point was to show that she is not. She is as bad or good as ..."
Jon?

Please tell me you aren't serious. That is a seriously fucked up thing to say.
"but she is a decent war-times queen"
Hmmm, I can't remember if it's transparent or not by this book, but Cersei is definitely a terrible ruler. She thinks she can do it all herself, but she really has no clue how to run a kingdom. This becomes quite clear by the end of A Dance with Dragons.

Ah, I should have made my question more clearly:
Is there any character in those novels - apart from Ned maybe - who takes part in the politics of Westeros and manages to stay decent throughout the events?
Yes, Jon definitely stays one of the very few decent characters. But he doesn't take part in the power struggles of the Kingdom. He is sent to the wall - a place that is intended to be no part of the worldly politics.
I really have the feeling, that all the characters involved in politics and power that Martin shows us, either try to stay decent and die for it (Ned) or decide that the end justifies the means - any means.
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Lots of people say Cersei is one of, if not THE most despicable characters in the series, apart from perhaps Joffrey. I disagree.
Cersei is completely human, and shows as much emotion as any character, if not more. She loves her children fiercely, for starters. She would protect them with her life. People argue that she is a poor mother- "just look at Joffrey!" but if you look at Myrcella and Tommen, it's clear that isn't so, not entirely.
Cersei might not love her husband, but it is Robert's fault to a degree. Not that he is to be blamed for loving another first, that is natural. But for Cersei it would be really hard to marry a man who doesn't love her. She was loved and pampered her entire life, much like Sansa before Joffrey.
So she loves Jaime. At least she loves him, and probably more than most people in this book love their partner. It's not that unusual when you consider the Targaryens marrying brother to sister. This is often considered historical fiction, and in the medieval time frame that it could fit into, I've read enough books that have dealt with incest.
At one point in A Clash of Kings, Tyrion witnesses Cersei's loving, happy, carefree side- "the one Jaime must know." He realized at that point that she is not completely hateful or cruel.
*Note that at this time I am currently beginning A Feast For Crows, but please continue to keep this spoiler free for those who have only finished the second novel, unless you know how to properly conceal spoilers.*