Q&A with Rhi Etzweiler discussion
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Blacker than Black
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Perception of Gender: From the Reader's POV
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This is an hard question. Black's soul feels a bit more male-like, and Red's one a bit more female-like, but the gender, he was kind of genderless to me.Sorry, I don't know how to explain it better.
"Did the perceptions of other characters influence your perspective? "
I don't think so, no.
Mod
Sorry, I don't know how to explain it bet..."
When you refer to the character's soul being "male-like" or "female-like"... do you think that Yang and Yin would be better descriptors than actual gender labels?
Black's character is, while presenting in an androgynous fashion, certainly possessing of more Yang characteristics than Yin.
As for Jhez/Red... while I intended the character to have stronger Yin attributes, I don't know if the end result fits that categorization. Red strikes me as more balanced between the two than strictly leaning toward one or the other.
When you refer to the character's soul being "male-like" or "female-like"... do you think that Yang and Yin would be better descriptors than actual gender labels?I'm not exactly an expert with those two terms, but yes if you portray them as two opposites than met in the middle, I would rather use those than gender labels.
I think I will have to read Red book to have a more clear picture, so far I pictured Red as opposed to Black, they feel to me as quite opposite personalities, and this is why I sort of "divided" them.
Mod
*nods* I think Red's character makes an effort to balance Black in the story. As I work on Red's book, though, I find that the character has decidedly different qualities when away from Black's company and influencing presence. It could be a sibling maternal/protective instinct that shows up in BTB. Or it could be a natural tendency Red has to provide balance.
Still doing a great deal of character exploration, not entirely sure. Could be a little of both, I guess. :)
For me they had pretty clear genders.Monsieur Garthelle was male...I mean.. "Monsieur" is a pretty clear indication of what his gender is. He is also constantly referred to as "he".
Jhez was from the first page a girl in my mind.
She was also constantly referred to as Black's sister, or "her/she". The first time we get introduced to her it's with these words me thinks: Jhez is standing sentry on her stretch of pavement as we drive by, but my twin’s expression startles me. Brow furrowed, lips twisted into a grimace, she gives her head a curt shake. And that pretty much made her a girl in my book.
Black is probably the only one that could have been perceived as genderless, but he was still male in my mind. Don't know why, cause if I remember correctly, close to nothing is given away about him, except his name. Maybe the combination of the cover and the name made him a man in my mind? I honestly can't remember if Jhez calls him her brother anywhere, or just always refers to him as her twin or Black.
anyway...to me it mattered little if they had ladybits or boybits or bothbits. If someone is referred to as a man, he is a man. If someone is referred to as a woman, she's a woman.
Maybe not the answer you want Rhi, but it's how I read it.
Mod
Ah, I'm not "looking" for an answer, actually. I just know that this aspect of the story is something that every reader will experience differently. And I was curious. :) I swear, no nefarious plots or ulterior motives here.
[ETA: And you're correct: Jhez doesn't make a specific gender reference to Black until much later in the story. I'm certain that sufficient story/character progression had taken place by that point that the readers would have already securely defined Black by that point.
I'll admit I'm curious as to what influences readers to perceive Black as male without that gender labeling provided from the outset in the story. Is it the M/M label that the story was plastered with before its release? Is it the cover art which, while could viably be depicting a female, is assumed to be male since a female character would not be acceptable in full frontal pose like that?
Socio-cultural stigmas that color our gender assumptions. I'm just curious :) I can't help it.]
"I'll admit I'm curious as to what influences readers to perceive Black as male without that gender labeling provided from the outset in the story"I understand what you are asking, but I don't really know how to answer.
The cover may influence people, yes, but for me it was just how I felt Black.
Mod
And that's a completely acceptable and legitimate answer. :) Sometimes there's no conscious or obvious rationalization, it just is and that's good enough.
I think I decided Black was man when I stumbled across the YouTube clip of Frank and my mind decided that was just how Black looks like.
When I read it, I read Black as male, Red as female and Garthelle male. Blue male too. Why? I'm... totally not sure. It's been too long since I've read it to remember. I didn't have a cover when I read it, so that wasn't it. *shrugs* dunno.
ETA: As I read thru the thread and think back on it, Aiko's answer stands out as how I felt while reading it.
Also, if I were to read it now, with having seen cover pic, it would strengthen my thought that Black was male.
Actually, reading the book with having put my own gender labels on them all, made a much bigger impact on me when /you/ showed me I had thrown them into a nice, neat, little box they didn't really fit in like I thought. You challenged my perceptions. It's what I took away from the book most. Thanks for that. :)
I saw him as a man, but I tag this book as Trans* for the genderless aspect of almost all characters. Sorry my english is not good and I don't know the right and wrong words to use. I see Black as a man, but I know there is a hermaphrodite possibility (all vampires are hermaphrodite). I'm a biologist, and I see it as in nature. A hermaphrodite is a plant or animal that has both male and female aspects. Black saw himself as a "he" and I saw him as he too, but not a cisman but more like a transman.I hope I'm not offending anyone, please you all can and must correct me if I'm using the wrong words here.
Rhi wrote: "Is it the M/M label that the story was plastered with before its release? "
About it, not long ago in a discussion I was asked why I gave a Trans* tag to a book if the publisher/writer tag it as M/M. It was a good question, but I admit I didn't change it. It's still in my trans shelf, not in my MM shelf
Mod
It's a double-edged sword.
On the one hand, if the characters present as male then they should be accepted as male by the reader regardless of the biological aspect.
That was the reason for the way the hermaphroditic biology was presented: late in the story, and a minor aspect of the individuals and the plotline.
And on the other hand, I felt it was imperative to "present" it as a trans* work simply because it was my intention as the artist to demonstrate the redundancy of gender labels and roles. As with all art, that was my intention but the audience interprets individually based on their unique perceptions. Which was why I thought it would be valuable to seed this discussion.
I didn't perceive Black or Garthelle or any of the other lyche by their gender based on the pronouns used or their presentation. Their appearance and mannerisms were simply aspects of who they were, their characters.
And while it was at times frustrating that the language itself limited and/or forced the use of a gender label, I did find it interesting to take that and use it as a tool to manipulate the perceptions of the reader. :D
This is probably boring :)I was thinking about what a different language (like Italian, but also Spanish and I think French) would change in this book. For example in Italian we have to pick a gender when declining adjectives (beautiful is "bella" if it's female; "bello" if it's male; when we have to speak about something generic, we pick the male gender - macho society, ha ha).
An advantage would be the fact that we can omit the subject of a sentence and we usually do, because usually the declination of the adjective makes it clear:
Era alto = he was tall
Era alta = she was tall
But a sentence like
He looked at himself in the mirror
She looked at herself in the mirror
is translated into
Si guardò allo specchio
and unless you choose to specify the subject
Lui (he) si guardò allo specchio
Lei (she) si guardò allo specchio
you can choose not to choose. Bottom line is: a translation into a Latin language would be tricky :)
Mod
Translation would be tricky, and an arduous task for the editor involved. Would love to see it, though! :)
Emanuela ~plastic duck~ wrote: "This is probably boring :)I was thinking about what a different language (like Italian, but also Spanish and I think French) would change in this book. For example in Italian we have to pick a ..."
Also Portuguese
:-)
Mod
But I'm a total nerd, so that sort of thing excites me.
Volya wrote: "In my language, we don't have gender-based words, which I love. In fact, it's totally ok to call another human 'it'. Most of us do."This is really cool!
"But I'm a total nerd, so that sort of thing excites me.
"
I have to say I'm a bit curious about those things too.
Mod
...I am horribly, insanely jealous. ;)
And wonder how I could have toyed with things in a language constructed that way.
Motivation for me to learn other languages. (Preferably all of them, but I'll be realistic.)
Mod
Did it alter your perception of Garthelle, or any of the other characters, when you discovered the prevalence of the hermaphroditic aspect?
Mod
The rest are very solidly acting within recognizable gender role/presentation parameters for the most part.
What attributes or characteristics underscored your perceptions during the reading experience?
Did the perceptions of other characters influence your perspective?
(While I as the artist am curious about audience perception and interpretation, there is no wrong or right in this, obviously. Would love to generate some discussion on the subject.)