Trouble with Tolkien

[Chris]

I guess that's why I'm not a professor.

[S.J.]

Yep. I've heard that one too. Unfortunately we live in a world that gives license to the kneejerk impulses of the professionally aggrieved. Pretty much all those people accomplish is throwing sand in the gears of social intercourse and forcing some folks to censor themselves for fear of offending...

[Chris]

Ack! Colleen!

THAT'S the essay that made my eyes bleed.

[Chris]

"Sand" and "intercourse" in the same sentence sounds kinda...gritty/painful.

[Becky]

I think I'll pass. Sometimes a story should just be enjoyed as a story. The more I analyze it, the less I enjoy it.

I've read LOTR several times, and I love it. Do I need to know every nuance and detail and "correct" analysis of the book to feel this way? Nope. Neither do people who think it's boring need to justify that.

It bores, therefore it is boring... TO THEM.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Razmatus wrote: "again and again, for those who can read in french, get Ferré's book... it is also available in czech (I have read it in this version)... great book to help you get a better insight on LOTR, better understand the characters, plot, the setting, the symbolism... the most interesting point it states throughout is that the main thing permeating everything in LOTR is "death", how it is expressed/represented, how characters deal with it etc etc etc "

Reading comprehension. *sigh* One thinks that you do not get it.

Reference, my boy. Reference! In online conversations, it is more than typing out a name.

Stop telling English speakers to "go read the French version." That doesn't fly here.

It's like telling you to locate my paper on Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came. Oh, wait! You don't have access! Well, it's good. You should read it.


Why not do this. YOU go check out The Tolkien Professor and get back with us when you're done. Here, unlike you, I'll make it easy for you. http://www.tolkienprofessor.com/wp/

[S.J.]

Chris: That's exactly why I used those words.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Chris wrote: "Ack! Colleen!

THAT'S the essay that made my eyes bleed."

But... but... I just posted the summary. ;)

[Chris]

Try reading the full version....

[Razmatus]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Razmatus wrote: "again and again, for those who can read in french, get Ferré's book... it is also available in czech (I have read it in this version)... great book to help you get a better insight..."

i wasnt telling, I was recommending... and I was recommending the french version cos this book is not available in english, maybe thats why, if it was, I would provide a link :)

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40...

it is this one, so far as much as I tried, I found only french and czech version

[Becky]

Maybe you could translate it for us, Raz?

[Janny]

Becky wrote: "Oh, I wasn't aware that analysis of a book had right and wrong answers. Jeez... like, imagine interpreting something differently. How ridiculous!

Off with their heads!"

LOL Becky, thanks for the refreshing and welcome humor!

There is, of course, no 'right and wrong' approach to appreciation of literature.

My comment referred to MY impression, gathered from Tolkien's own view of his work, as expressed in the published work The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, which I read some time ago, and still retained some clear impressions.

Here are two direct quotes from letters written by the author himself, speaking of his own works:

"The darkness of the present days has had some effect on it. Though it is not an 'allegory'. (I have already had one letter from America asking for an authoritative exposition of the allegory of The Hobbit.)

"I dislike Allegory -- the conscious and intentional allegory -- yet any attempt to explain the purport of fairytale must use allegorical language, (And, of course, the more 'life' a story has the more readily it will be susceptible of allegorical interpretations: while the better a deliberate allegory is made the more nearly it will be acceptable just as a story. "

Critics' views are one thing; an opinion quite separate from, the author's own vision of his writing.

I am not a Tolkien scholar, just a reader who enjoyed his talespinning, and who pursued (a bit) of curiosity into the mind behind the work (and in passing also, by personal acquaintance, a few of the key people in publishing who produced the books in the USA.) I do (personally/no criticism implied for those who view things with different priorities) tend (by personal background) to favor the artist's opinion of his own creation.

[S.J.]

Razmatus: Am I correct in thinking that English is not your first language? If so, I must say that I'm impressed.

[Chris]

...which was the intent..

[Razmatus]

the text itself would take pretty damn long to translate (as it goes around 250-300 pages in total, dont remember exactly) and the explanatory notes at the end of each chapter, well... plus the quotations might take a bit of ages to find in english original

shame it isnt available in english as far as I know... the book says on its back cover sth in the vein of "for those who read tolkien it helps get an insight and for those who havent or dont intend to read this lengthy piece of literature, presenting them things worth knowing about it", i think :)

[Janny]

MrsJoseph wrote: "Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "MrsJ, I would love to read Andre Norton. It seems like a lot of her books are out of print. What up with that??"

I know! It's taken me quite a while to b..."

Mrs Joseph, it may warm you to know (off topic) that there is a very lovely documentary being made of Andre Norton's tremendous influence on the field, and honoring the fact she was a pioneer woman writer in what was then considered a male dominated genre. She is very definitely loved and most certainly not forgotten. Sadly, the massive shifts that have swept the publishing industry in the past 20 years, and are ongoing still, have not spared even revered works by established classic writers.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Razmatus wrote: "the text itself would take pretty damn long to translate (as it goes around 250-300 pages in total, dont remember exactly) and the explanatory notes at the end of each chapter, well... plus the quo..."

Goodness. Would you look at the time.

I'm going to read an ENGLISH book, since I don't speak french. Sorry I guess I can't converse with you since we have no points of discussion in common.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Chris wrote: "Try reading the full version...."

I, um, skimmed it.


***

As a side point, I do think it's interesting the Tolkien considered Middle Earth to be, well, a mythic history of Earth. It wasn't a different planet or different land, but this planet in "a different stage of imagination".

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

Chris wrote: "...which was the intent.."




Huckleberry!!

[Razmatus]

S.J. wrote: "Razmatus: Am I correct in thinking that English is not your first language? If so, I must say that I'm impressed."

it is not my first language, although most of my online communication is in this language, and I watch movies, play PC games, listen to music in it as well, and plus I do write poetry directly in it without translating from slovak... and yea I do my best for my english to sound english and not broken :)

and thanks :D

[S.J.]

I really don't think that that last comment was called for, MrsJoseph.

[Becky]

Huckleberry?

[Chris]

Y'all are gonna get Dawn started if you keep calling me that...

[Razmatus]

± Colleen of the Crawling Chaos ± wrote: "Chris wrote: "Try reading the full version...."

I, um, skimmed it.


***

As a side point, I do think it's interesting the Tolkien considered Middle Earth to be, well, a mythic history of Earth. ..."

or as ferré explained, based on tolkien, that fantasy isnt here for us to escape this real world, but rather to portray real world in a way which makes it clearer to understand by pointing out certain things that would otherwise be hidden by the mess and chaos of this world

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

S.J. wrote: "I really don't think that that last comment was called for, MrsJoseph."

I think it was.

I think that I'm tired of being told to go read a French book. Since I don't speak french.

ETA: If the only points of conversation are French and I don't speak French.... well *shrug*

[S.J.]

Razmatus: Let me say unequivocally that your English is much better than my Slovak. Do you read or speak any other languages?

[S.J.]

MrsJoseph: I'll keep your comments in mind.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*, *good karma*]

S.J. wrote: "MrsJoseph: I'll keep your comments in mind."

And that means what?

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Razmatus wrote: "or as ferré explained, based on tolkien, that fantasy isnt here for us to escape this real world, but rather to portray real world in a way which makes it clearer to understand by pointing out certain things that would otherwise be hidden by the mess and chaos of this world "

Why would I need to read Ferré to tell me what Tolkien said when I could just read what Tolkien said?

[Vivian]

Chris wrote: "I didn't need to read a bunch of essays or academics on LoTR to pick up what I needed from it. Which was, in summary:

read-fun-story-cool"

Agreed. And there's nothing wrong with that, imho.

And if someone has the opinion:
read-boring-throw book

Nothing wrong with that either (well, any book throwing feels a little wrong). Sometimes it's that simple.

[Razmatus]

I read the book in czech language... I was lucky to discover this book by chance... I was helping a colleague to tidy up the young adults section, the part of literature "more for boys" and this book was on one of the piles, so I immediately bought it and read it in a week or so... great points in there, many things I didnt see it revealed to me, and also inspired more points of view possible at some things in LOTR

before reading it I didnt think that death had such a prevalent role in the story, but in the book the points definitely make sense

s.j.: I guess that there were a couple things that helped... first off my writing poetry, helped me to play with the language and see where it takes me, so now even when i cant remember the exact idiom or such, I can "create" one that makes sense even to a native speaker... also my studies helped to give me insight on how english and language in general works... and of course it is my perseverance to try and improve it - I would never be content with using a broken variety of it, even though no one would seem to object having imperfections... when speaking english, I want it to be english and not just my mother tongue translated into english words... and when I talk (spoken conversation/word), I want it to sound english with as little accent as possible (although as my phonetics teacher pointed out, there is NO ONE without an accent, even native speakers have distinct ones), so as for the others not to be able to tell that i am slovak (not that I am ashamed of that, but if I talk in english, I dont want others to discern just by the terrible accent that im from "eastern europe")

[S.J.]

Well, you wouldn't really need to unless you wanted to know what Ferre thought about it. Some times a new perspective can expand one's own horizons. I'm not one for literary interpretations myself, and I don't read French, but I wouldn't discourage anyone who wants to from having a look for themselves.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

S.J. wrote: "Well, you wouldn't really need to unless you wanted to know what Ferre thought about it. Some times a new perspective can expand one's own horizons. I'm not one for literary interpretations myself,..."

Well, I don't speak French, either, or Czech, so, yeah...

Also, I have read several perspectives while being involved in this thread, from the Nobel Prize committee who deemed Tolkien second-rate prose, to other critiques, to glowing endorsements, as well as skimming some of his own works, such as On Fairy Tales.

I feel my horizons have been broadened well enough for one day. :>

[Razmatus]

± Colleen of the Crawling Chaos ± wrote: "Razmatus wrote: "or as ferré explained, based on tolkien, that fantasy isnt here for us to escape this real world, but rather to portray real world in a way which makes it clearer to understand by ..."

because that is what the literary science is for, to try and find different insights and points of view on the work of literature that can be found in the text itself and which may not have all been addressed by the author himself

maybe because it can enrich one's knowledge on the work and the ideas in there

or to have something more to think about, new ways to look on things

reading a work doesnt mean that it will try to force you into thinking the same... the book presents both sides, and doesnt force you into anything...

or as I heard saying: you dont have to take everything for your own, or accept every single bit of other opinion as your own, but you might try to listen and take from it what you consider useful and enriching for you, thats important :P

[S.J.]

Yes, one can get horizon-broadening overload. At the end of the day, all it comes down to is whether or not one enjoyed the story for oneself.

[Razmatus]

I enjoyed it also cos at the time I read it again (this time in english and oh man, tolkien's language itself is beautiful), I was going through one of worst times of my life and I told myself that I will embark on this journey with the protagonists and see if it purifies me... and in a way it did, it helped me understand a deal of things

and to make a slight analogy on what Martin said in ASOIAF (a wall is only as strong as the men who hold it), I would provide a point "a book is only as strong as the person's will to involve themself in it"... the book lives only when you delve into it... and throughout reading LOTR, I felt comfortable, almost like 10th, silent, hidden companion on the journey of the fellowship

[Dawn]

Just saying - if I read a book that bores me, I'm guessing that reading a book about that book is going to be pretty tedious. I think I'll pass... If you don't like something, I really don't think reading something telling you all the ways you were wrong about how you felt about it will help. Book love is an emotional thing; chemical even. It defies logic. You can't create a spark when it just doesn't exist. Believe me, as a fantasy fan I wanted to love Tolkien. I want to love every book I read! But he and I are just better as friends... The connection just isn't there.

[Razmatus]

that book doesnt say to anyone they are wrong... it merely intends to show interesting things from the work itself to ppl who just didnt want to go through the text itself to look for them

and ppl who found the book boring probably didnt work themselves to find some of them...

for example:
„ „I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death.“

„Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.“ “ (echo of a dialogue of Frodo and Gandalf)

would someone who found the book boring look and find quotes and interesting ideas like this one? I dont think so... so ferré's book brings out certain interesting ideas worth checking for those who dont want to work themselves through the text to find stuff

[Dawn]

Razmatus wrote: "and ppl who found the book boring probably didnt work themselves to find some of them..."

If I have to work to be interested in a book, then it's not doing it right.

[Razmatus]

Razmatus wrote: "that book doesnt say to anyone they are wrong... it merely intends to show interesting things from the work itself to ppl who just didnt want to go through the text itself to look for them

and p..."

this quote is awesome just to add:

„The world changes, and all that once was strong now proves unsure. How shall any tower withstand such numbers and such reckless hate?“ (Théoden)

[Becky]

Again we're back to the argument that someone who didn't enjoy the book didn't do enough to try to enjoy it?

No. Sorry. Just because someone didn't enjoy a book doesn't mean that they didn't give it a fair shot. Just by picking it up, they gave it a fair shot.

Sometimes books just need to entertain and shouldn't be work.

[Razmatus]

well, some read the books for pure entertainment, some read them to learn, to get to interesting ideas, new perspectives etc, and not every book handles them easily and plainly, sometimes your mind has to work hard to get to them

for me the appeal is also in the discovery - reading in between the lines... and sometimes it can be challenging, like in tolkien's case

[Razmatus]

Dawn wrote: "Razmatus wrote: "and ppl who found the book boring probably didnt work themselves to find some of them..."

If I have to work to be interested in a book, then it's not doing it right."

some books/music are an acquired taste... if you say though that book that makes you work to get to the ideas is not doing it right, thats your opinion and I disagree... IMO things that are too easily acquired are as easily forgotten, something I have to work harder for I remember for long

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Razmatus wrote: "would someone who found the book boring look and find quotes and interesting ideas like this one? I dont think so... so ferré's book brings out certain interesting ideas worth checking for those who dont want to work themselves through the text to find stuff "

Or they could watch the movies. If they were so inclined.

[Chris]

Rider: "Get up, boy."
Horse: "----"
Other person: "I think he's dead. They're not supposed to lay there like that."

[Becky]

Chris wrote: "Rider: "Get up, boy."
Horse: "----"
Other person: "I think he's dead. They're not supposed to lay there like that.""

Maybe it should be kicked? I hear those horse things can be mighty stubborn about being dead. ;)

[Razmatus]

and may rise again like those beyond the Wall lol

[Becky]

KILL IT WITH FIRE!

[S.J.]

Nonsense. It's not dead. It's just pining for the fjords...

[Dawn]

Razmatus wrote: "some books/music are an acquired taste... if you say though that book that makes you work to get to the ideas is not doing it right, thats your opinion and I disagree... IMO things that are too easily acquired are as easily forgotten, something I have to work harder for I remember for long..."

Of course it's my opinion. Whose else would it be? Do I really need to add "in my opinion" to every statement I make? Seems pretty obvious to me that it's my opinion.

For me, a book is like a relationship. I'm not going to date someone because everyone else keeps telling me how not boring they are or how funny they are. If I find them to be boring or annoying or if I have to work to like them, then I'm going to move on to someone who I do find funny and interesting, and who makes my oven warm. Tolkien just doesn't turn my gears.





In my opinion.








See, was that really necessary?


Also.... So many analogies. That was fun.