Crime and Punishment: Part IV - Mar.4 -11

[Silver]

PART IV

CHAPTER I

CHAPTER II

CHAPTER III

CHAPTER IV

CHAPTER V

CHAPTER VI

[Amalie]

I finished this part so here are my thoughts.

The religion once again does play a big role in the book, doesn't it? I just didn't notice it earlier because we earlier read The Idiot which was completely filled with religious connotations, I missed the subtle ones in here.

The two characters Raskolnikov and Sonia are both "sinners" right? But if we look at it closely, Sonia is not Raskolnikov’s fellow sinner. She has turned to prostitution only out of the need to help her family, and laments her sin, while Raskolnikov has not yet repented for the murders, he is still filled with pride and fear of being caught. And he being unable to recognize the difference between them show that he has a long way to go before recognizing his sin.

But what does he mean when he calls her "a religious maniac"?

Then the story of Lazarus once again, I don't know, foreshadowing? That Raskolnikov, a skeptic, may have the chance to resurrect if he shred his pride and confesses his crime?

Ok, finally Raskolnikov walking away when Nikolay confesses or made to confess.. It reminded me of Jean Valjean in Les Misérables. He give up his freedom to exonerate an innocent man who was identified as Valjean. He is tormented by this goes to the trial and confesses. He just did it didn't hesitate or try to save his skin. Raskolnikov's action is a complete reversal. I don't think he is still honestly feeling guilty of his crime.

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "Ok, finally Raskolnikov walking away when Nikolay confesses or made to confess.. It reminded me of Jean Valjean in Les Misérables. He give up his freedom to exonerate an innocent man who was identified as Valjean. He is tormented by thi..."

Nice observation! The question pops up, are all crimes equal? Also the controversy over the justification of the death penalty as a criminal sentence can be closely associated with this too. Our society shows us that a crime should is punished regardless of no matter the what good honorable motives that may be behind it, but history and/or literature seems to tells us otherwise. Characters such as Robin Hood, Jean Valjean...

Raskolnikov believes that the means, no matter how bad, justified the end. He believes this until the very end of the novel. The only source of his anguish was over his murder of the pawnbroker’s sister, an innocent victim who he never intended to kill. On the other hand, he was at peace with what he did to the pawnbroker, and never once agonized over the intentional crime.

[Amalie]

Shanez wrote: "Nice observation! The question pops up, are all crimes equal? Also the controversy over the justification of the death penalty as a criminal sentence can be closely associated with this too. Our society shows us that a crime..."

I never thought about Jean Valjean's crime as equal to Raskolnikov. I think he stole bread to feed his sister's children. But I get you point.

I guess there are many ways of punishments. His anxiety and internal suffering is the punishment he is experiencing now, I guess we have to wait and see if he get punished legally and if so which will be worse.

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "I guess there are many ways of punishments. His anxiety and internal suffering is the punishment he is experiencing now, I guess we have to wait and see if he get punished..."

Yes, I think that's want D's trying to show.

Amalie wrote: "Then the story of Lazarus once again, I don't know, foreshadowing? That Raskolnikov, a skeptic, may have the chance to resurrect if he shred his pride and confesses his crime?...."

I'm not sure I know everything about the Lazarus's tale but I think it's symbolic. May be Lazarus physical death is parallel to Raskalnikov's moral death-like state. He is still stubbon and doesn't want to accept his guilt. Since here it is Sonya who presents him the reading she acts like his Christ-like figure/saviour.

As for "a religious maniac" part, I don't have the novel with me, may be he feels threatened of what she tells him. If he to follow the ways of religion, he must clear his conscience, clearly he struggles there.

[Amalie]

Shanez wrote: "He is still stubbon and doesn't want to accept his guilt. Since here it is Sonya who presents him the reading she acts like his Christ-like figure/saviour...."

I know you've already read this but I don't want to add spoilers to the thread yes, she is such an ambiguous character, you can't call her "good" or "bad". Her social and moral statuses are contradicting( a prostitute and a liberator of Raskolnikov). It's difficult to categorize her.

[[deleted user]]

There is another prostitute in D's Notes from Underground. A very young girl living as a prostitute in St. Petersburg. She is some what similar to Sonia. I don't remember the character's name.

[[deleted user]]

Liza! That's the name.

[dely]

Amalie wrote: "I know you've already read this but I don't want to add spoilers to the thread yes, she is such an ambiguous character, you can't call her "good" or "bad". Her social and moral statuses are contradicting( a prostitute and a liberator of Raskolnikov). It's difficult to categorize her."

She was forced by her father into prostitution to feed their siblings. If you see it from this point of view she did not a "bad" thing; on the contrary, she helped her siblings. The fact that she was a prostitute doesn't make her autmatically a bad person without moral values.
She is surely another "lost" soul for Dostoyevsky (like the prostitute of Notes from Underground); it seems that Dostoyevsky justifes their "work" because they are poor, or because they need to do it or because they are forced to do it.

Raskolnikov admires Sonja, how she faces the injustices of life and the suffering to which she is submitted. She does something wrong but faces it with courage and without sense of guilt (at the most with shame); Raskolnikov has done something for him right but lives bad, with this fever due to sense of guilt.

[Amalie]

dely wrote: "She was forced by her father into prostitution to feed their siblings. If you see it from this point of view she did not a "bad" thing; on the contrary, she helped her siblings ..."

I was referring to how the society looks at the prostitute. They will always regard her as a "sinner", a woman who sell her bodies for money.

As for how I see her or what Dostoyevsky shows us is quite the opposite, I agree. I've not read "Notes from Underground" so I can't say anything about that character. But if you have a C&P copy with you, you'll find there's this ritual of kisses Sonya's feet. May be to thank her for the sacrifice or may be as a gesture of her being almost a Saint/ divine figure? Katerina Ivanovna kisses Sonya's feet and after reading the passage of Lazarus' resurrection, Raskolnikov kisses her feet.

I just felt it as a reverse of the tale from the Bible where a sinful woman/prostitute (some say Mary Magdalene but I don't buy it because the Gospels does not say she is or was a one) kissing Jesus' feet, and anointing them with the ointment.

I believe D sees Sonya as a women who can lead men to their salvation or something. Is it the same with the prostitute in "Notes from Underground"?

[[deleted user]]

Amalie wrote: "I just felt it as a reverse of the tale from the Bible where a sinful woman/prostitute (some say Mary Magdalene but I don't buy it because the Gospels does not say she is or was a one) kissing Jesus' feet, and anointing them with the ointment. ..."

Thanks! I never understand these religious ideas unless someone points them out. It can also mean she is wise too.

As for the idea "Sonya is good and Raskolnikov is bad" I don't know, we have a very little left in the novel, right? I personally believe at heart at heart Raskolnikov’s a good youngman —he loves his mother, he loves his sister, he loves his family, they care for him, (view spoiler)[and that love enables him to care for Sonia, and her family. (hide spoiler)] Some people do commit wrong acts but are still good people at heart. People are more complex than just black and white or good and bad. I think that's another thing that Dostoevsky is trying to show.

[dely]

Amalie wrote: "I believe D sees Sonya as a women who can lead men to their salvation or something. Is it the same with the prostitute in "Notes from Underground"? "

No, it's not the same but I don't want to spoiler. Read it, it is really worth.

Me too I have thought about Maria Maddalena, that also a prostitute must not be necessarily a bad person but, as you have said, it is not sure she was a prostitute in the gospel and maybe they are only "rumors" (sorry, but I don't know how to say it :/).
I have loved the scene when Raskolnikov kisses the feet of Sonya! I think he is in love with her but not a passionate or carnal love but love for a poor and humble soul; for a human being that has suffered too much but is still so kind and at heart. I think it is mainly love and respect for all the suffering that Sonya had to bear in life. Raskolnikov is not able to endure the suffering due to his act and so, also for this, he admires Sonya.

[Tarun]

Amalie wrote: I believe D sees Sonya as a women who can lead men to their salvation or something. Is it the same with the prostitute in "Notes from Underground"?


"Notes from the Underground" is entirely a different perspective.A unique plot,exceptional narration and a very original work.

If we observe the timing of Raskolnikov's scene with Sonya in her room,he seems at the time to be severely disturbed mentally with enormous flush of emotions which he was finding bizarre to handle.
Guilt conscience,fear of getting caught,indecisiveness on whether to surrender or run away,ashamed to face his family, -- these feelings erupted a craving inside him to cling to some person,to confess his crime ,to be judged,to be forgiven,to be loved,to love,to get healed,to get rid off his situation -- he was feeling that hopeless at the time.
Its difficult to say that he really was in love with Sonya.

[dely]

Tarun wrote: "Its difficult to say that he really was in love with Sonya. "

I didn't mean that he loved Sonya as a woman but he loved (or admired, respected) Sonya as a person who suffered but was able to endure everything and to go on with life without getting sick like him. I think Raskolnikov "loved" what she represented: a humble and suffering poor soul that was able to not give up and take life as it was given to her (perhaps as a martyr?).
On the contrary Raskolnikov was sure to do something right but lived in a terrible way after he killed the old women. He "loved" (admired, respected) the great endurance of suffering of Sonya.
I agree with all the other things you have said.

[MountainAshleah]

I agree--Raskolnikov is not capable of earthly love. His love is idealistic, and Sonya is objectified as a representation of idea(s). There could absolutely be no "happily ever after." (If we even remotely envisioned that could happen in this novel.)

[Tarun]

Yes,infact in the eyes of Raskolnikov, Sonya happened to be a pitiable girl who happened to meet him by chance during the time when he desperately needed some one to cling to.
And how much he needed to cling to a suffering soul with whom he could identify himself,relate his crime with and with the oversensitive state of mind that he was in at the time,how much he would have appreciated and praised the courage with which the person was handling her suffering!
Interestingly, he might have preferred over Sonya to cling to someone with greater crime and suffering than his own...as that would have seemed to help him be consoled more.