Wings of the Dove, The: Week 1 - Book First & Second

[Bill]

Stuart,

This is quick because I have to run but I have to say,

1) I think there is extraordinary depth in the characters. In fact, it is psychological depth above all that Henry James is noted for. I find his characters very vividly drawn. His prose can sometimes drive me mad -- but his characterizations never.

2) I find there's a great deal of humor. The picture of Aunt Julia is absolutely hysterical. But there's humor throughout and the description of Kate's father, the monument to selfishness, is replete with irony.

3) Kate is a common enough name and while there are question of marriage and money as there are in The Taming of the Shrew -- so are there in literature.

[Stuart]

Thanks! I'm perhaps not expressing myself very well - but regarding point 1 above - taking as an example Kate's father Lionel. I found his goal with Kate to be explicit and quite transparent within the first chapter. While he might have been artfully "drawn" in a large amount of detail - I found it easy to understand his goal for Kate and why he wanted it - as it clearly benefitted him personally. This is, to my mind, not depth. I would have expected to have to delve further into what was going on (or rather have Kate delve into it) before she could discern what his goal was. It was all so transparent - and in retrospect, I agree that perhaps that was where the humor was hiding that I missed - that I didn't find it as an example of any kind of psychological depth at all. It seemed very on-the-surface and transparent.

This is, of course, the problem with discussing just a section of a book at a time. I'm trusting (I'm sure without risk) that James is just using this as a setup for a much more deep discussion on how these fairly common scenarios played out in the minds and lives of the three primary characters (of which, I've only met 2 so far).

[[deleted user]]

I'm finding this book a little hard to get into. I find some parts that go right along then I hite brick walls of dry writing. I have always had this problem with Henry James. But I'm hopeing that this will cjange as the book goes along. Jamie

[Ryan]

Does anyone's edition come with a decoder ring? I know I'm adding to the redundancy of what many people have posted, but for as overwhelming as the written acrobatics that James performs, I don't find myself discouraged by it. Someone made a rather astute point that James deals in multiple character contradictions but James prided himself on telling *real* stories. Many times authors commit themselves to a very static concrete character and they tend to be one thing all of the time. James, it seems, for lack of better terms is showing us that people are a lot of things, a lot of the time.

[Lily]

Bill wrote: "...Kate is a common enough name and while ....The Taming of the Shrew..."

I like the possibility, though.

[Bill]

I don't think the plot of "The Wings of a Dove" is really a common scenario. :-)

Contradictions in all of us are what makes us who we are.

[Bill]

Lily wrote: "Bill wrote: "...Kate is a common enough name and while ....The Taming of the Shrew..."

I like the possibility, though."

Yes, it's a lovely possibility. I don't think you'll be able to do much with it here though. I just don't think that's who these characters are in any meaningful way.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "I was at first struck by the beauty of the writing

Oh my Silver, I just hate James' writing - it is so convoluted. I find myself reading sentences again to ascertain their meaning. I am not enjo..."

I've been following this, wondering if I should buy the book. If YOU'VE given up, there's no hope for it. I'll re-read Washington Square, and maybe promote it as our next book.

[Deborah, Moderator]

I'm struggling through, but one thought did cross my mind. (Apologies to Bill). To me the characters are really flat and dull. I'll keep reading and see if I change my mind. But so far, I can leave it more than I can take it. He hasn't made me care about any of the characters or what happens to them. While I can appreciate the language because I can hear how it would sound verbally in my head, this is definitely something I too need a decoder ring to full understand.

[MadgeUK]

What is a decoder ring?

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "What is a decoder ring?"

RYAN, I'm fairly sure, was making a joke. Edited to show correct name.

I don't know about British children, but growing up here, most kids had a decoder ring. I think they came in boxes of cereal as prizes/gifts. Using the ring, you can figure out what the secret sentences on the cereal boxes say. LOL, RYAN was saying, (I think), that if you had a decoder ring, you could figure out what James was saying.

I also had a mood ring which changed colors depending on what my mood was. (Actually, heat activated...so if you're really angry, you're temperature goes us and the ring turns black.)

I also had a pet rock.

[Bill]

Adelle,

I wasn't the one who wished for a "decorder ring". That was Ryan. I do think the sentences in late James are often less than models of clarity, but I often think the problem is not style but the attempt to describe rarefied emotions that I don't feel -- it's like reading descriptions of colors I've never seen.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I'll try to see if I can explain why I think chapter I is something of a literary marvel if I have time later.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "What is a decoder ring?"

What is a "weekend?" --Dowager Countess Crawley

[Linda2]

Bill wrote: "I don't think the plot of "The Wings of a Dove" is really a common scenario. :-)

Contradictions in all of us are what makes us who we are."

(view spoiler)[It was used in Les Liaisons Dangereuses centuries before. (hide spoiler)] Also an endless number of movies.

[Linda2]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

I wasn't the one who wished for a "decorder ring". That was Ryan. I do think the sentences in late James are often less than models of clarity, but I often think the problem is not style b..."

Stream of consciousness, a la Woolf. Don't understand her books either.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

I wasn't the one who wished for a "decorder ring". That was Ryan."

My bad.

[[deleted user]]

Rochelle wrote: "It was used in Les Liaisons Dangereuses centuries before. (hide spoiler)] Also an endless number of movies and TV dramas.

"

Well...granted...there has been sexual attraction between individuals and obstacles between their finding fulfilment for a good long time.

THAT, however, is not the main thrust of this book. Or at least not from James's point of view. The obstacle strewn path of Kate and Denscher is primarily a literary device James is using to bring forward Milly and her [well, that would be a spoiler].

[Linda2]

Adelle wrote: "Well...granted...there as been sexual attraction between individuals and obstacles between their finding fulfilment for a good long time.

THAT, however, is not the main thrust of this book. Or at least not from James's point of view. "

Only partially. You would have to read the entire book to know the plot similarities. I'll meet you again in a month.

[Bill]

And yes and James' attitude toward Milly (well, that would be a spoiler.)

[[deleted user]]

Mmmm. So I googled Les Liaisons Dangereuses to find out what the plot was/ what the similarities were. I probably have a follow up question when we've finished WotD.

[Linda2]

I intentionally put that title into a spoiler coat. :-(

[[deleted user]]

Not when I copied it. Sorry, but when I copied that title it was just right there. I didn't even open up the spoiler.

[Linda2]

Adelle wrote: "Not when I copied it. Sorry, but when I copied that title it was just right there. I didn't even open up the spoiler."

It was my first time using that. I goofed. ::stands in corner::

[[deleted user]]

In that case, you did great! I found it tricksy when I first tried using those. And it looks all good now.

[MadgeUK]

Never heard of a decoder ring but I do know what a mood ring is.

[Bill]

Adelle, Rochelle,

Originality of plotting is not really a mark of a great writer. Homer's audience know his plots and Shakespeare's stole almost all -- if not all -- of his.

While James plot is not entirely original, the game here is psychological nuance.

This assumes knowledge of the plot of WOTD and LLD.

(view spoiler)[ The obvious connections since you've both read WOTD are that a man and a woman are taking advantage of a third, and the man, in the end, falls for the woman he's meant to take advantage of. So yes, a parallel, but while the plot isn't entirely original -- no plots are entirely original -- I think the circumstances are different enough so that the plot is not really similar in an interesting way. And the precise twist of the James plot, is quite more elegant and interesting. (hide spoiler)]

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "Never heard of a decoder ring but I do know what a mood ring is."

You were all grown up when decoder rings came out. And they came in American dry cereal boxes.

[Linda2]

Bill wrote: "Adelle, Rochelle,

Plotting is not really a mark of a great writer. Homer's audience know his plots and Shakespeare's stole almost all -- if not all -- of his.

While James plot is not entirely ori..."

Of course the psychological nuances make it different. Actually I saw the film, never read the book.

But I won't read it again without the decoder ring.

[Bill]

Rochelle wrote: "MadgeUK wrote: "Never heard of a decoder ring but I do know what a mood ring is."

You were all grown up when decoder rings came out. And they came in American dry cereal boxes."

I think decoder rings were popular in the US in the 1950s, probably early in the 1950s. I always associate them with Captain Midnight who was selling either Bosco or Ovaltine.

[Linda2]

Also Tom Corbett and his Space Cadets.

[Lily]

@1 MadgeUK wrote: "It is nowadays proposed that children should be taught 'how to be happy' in school and Happiness is part of some school curricula on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as being taught at Harvard, no less:-..."

Madge, used your sources as provocateurs for a discussion tonight. Great fun! Thanks.

[Bill]

Adelle quoted from the preface, "For the attentive reader—and James reminds us in his Preface that this novel ‘might have a great deal to give, but would probably ask for equal services in return’"

I think this is true, and while I'm not always convinced that his style couldn't be clearer and simpler without losing something of value, I think this is a situation where I think there is more far more baby than bathwater.

At any rate, James is conventionally one of the great writers of the 19th and very early 20th century -- and his two greatest works are usually considered to be Portrait of Lady and The Wings of a Dove.

I do think the first chapter of The Wings of the Dove a little miracle of characterization and drama. One does have to adjust to James’ but there’s a payoff. And if sentences have to read more than once – so what?

Reading is not for sissies.

To show you what I mean in just the very first pages -- not even the whole chapter:

She waited, Kate Croy, for her father to come in, but he kept her unconscionably, and there were moments at which she showed herself, in the glass over the mantel, a face positively pale with the irritation that had brought her to the point of going away without sight of him. It was at this point, however, that she remained; changing her place, moving from the shabby sofa to the armchair upholstered in a glazed cloth that gave at once—she had tried it—the sense of the slippery and of the sticky.

James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (p. 3). Kindle Edition.

We have a taste of conflict in the first two sentences, and its sources – Kate considers leaving but remains. She moves to her father’s armchair that had “the sense of the slippery and of the sticky” – which is an excellent description of her father, slippery, elusive, yet hard to be rid of.
_____

she had above all, from time to time, taken a brief stand on the small balcony to which the pair of long windows gave access. The vulgar little street, in this view, offered scant relief from the vulgar little room; its main office was to suggest to her that the narrow black house-fronts, adjusted to a standard that would have been low even for backs, constituted quite the publicity implied by such privacies.

The misery of the little room – it’s vulgarity, it’s commonness, it’s resistance to any sort of pleasure – and its further reflection in the neighborhood -- is significant because it precisely this misery that Kate is willing on to avoid being a pawn – a knight even – in Aunt Julia’s attempt to have her marry someone suitable.

James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (pp. 3-4). Kindle Edition.

Silver (?) had said, I think, that Kate was hard to see but she is presented vividly.

She stared into the tarnished glass too hard indeed to be staring at her beauty alone. She readjusted the poise of her black, closely-feathered hat; retouched, beneath it, the thick fall of her dusky hair; kept her eyes, aslant, no less on her beautiful averted than on her beautiful presented oval. She was dressed altogether in black, which gave an even tone, by contrast, to her clear face and made her hair more harmoniously dark. Outside, on the balcony, her eyes showed as blue; within, at the mirror, they showed almost as black. She was handsome, but the degree of it was not sustained by items and aids; a circumstance moreover playing its part at almost any time in the impression she produced. The impression was one that remained, but as regards the sources of it no sum in addition would have made up the total. She had stature without height, grace without motion, presence without mass. Slender and simple, frequently soundless, she was somehow always in the line of the eye—she counted singularly for its pleasure. More "dressed," often, with fewer accessories, than other women, or less dressed, should occasion require, with more, she probably could not have given the key to these felicities. They were mysteries of which her friends were conscious—those friends whose general explanation was to say that she was clever, whether or no it were taken by the world as the cause or as the effect of her charm.

James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (pp. 5-6). Kindle Edition.

She has thick, dark hair framing an oval face, her eyes are blue. He skin was pale with irritation, but perhaps her skin is pale. She beautiful in and of herself – “not sustained by items and aids” means. She has the presence of a sylph, a spirit of the air -- ”stature without height”, "grace without motion" (elegance of posture, statuesque in the most artistic possible sense of the word), "presence without mass. Slender and simple, frequently soundless."

She appears more dressed with fewer accessories than other women, or less dressed, should the occasion require with more – she has instinctive taste about how she looks.

Silver was somewhat suspicious about this but James quite specifically says she probably couldn't explain what she did – and what’s more the effects are “felicities.”

Kate is, in fact, something of a work of art, of beauty. Her beauty and grace are eloquently established, and they are important because they are what comprise her value on the market.

James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (p. 5). Kindle Edition.

When her father does arrive, James it as his best.

When her father at last appeared she became, as usual, instantly aware of the futility of any effort to hold him to anything. He had written her that he was ill, too ill to leave his room, and that he must see her without delay; and if this had been, as was probable, the sketch of a design, he was indifferent even to the moderate finish required for deception.

He can’t be held to anything, the slipperiness of “the glazed cloth” is now instantiated in Lionel. He is a narcissist who is not merely manipulative but oddly insists of letting the world know who he is. “…he was indifferent even to the moderate finish required for deception.” That is a superb observation. He is manipulative but clearly not one always to act in his own self-interest in a practical way – which is probably why he is in these circumstances.

He had clearly wanted, for perversities that he called reasons, to see her, just as she herself had sharpened for a talk; but she now again felt, in the inevitability of the freedom he used with her, all the old ache, her poor mother's very own, that he couldn't touch you ever so lightly without setting up. No relation with him could be so short or so superficial as not to be somehow to your hurt; and this, in the strangest way in the world, not because he desired it to be—feeling often, as he surely must, the profit for him of its not being—but because there was never a mistake for you that he could leave unmade or a conviction of his impossibility in you that he could approach you without strengthening.

James, Henry (2011-03-24). The Wings of the Dove, Volume 1 of 2 (pp. 6-8). Kindle Edition.

His behavior is all the more chilling still because the object of deception has been his wife and daughters. To be in his presence is a continual ache – “the inevitability of the freedom” he used with her” – for it is in constraint and not freedom that we respect each other, it is constraint that shows we are sensitive that another’s need is separate from our own. But despite his narcissism – or perhaps because it? he is uncontrolled – one always left his presence with the sense of being harmed. He is a pathological liar – “there was no truth in him”

So in just a few pages James has detailed a rather marvelous scene – the daughter with beauty that is subtle and complex who is brought to her father’s on false pretenses, knowing he is a self-serving scoundrel, and she also has reasons of her own to be here.

What more do you want? Egg in your beer?

[[deleted user]]

VERY nicely done.

Especially appreciated your comments on constraint/freedom. So true. I hadn't seen that.

[Lily]

Bill -- you know the story, so you carry an ultimate judgement on these two characters. But what has fascinated me as a newcomer is the ambiguity that James still manages to leave in the air at this point, even while creating suspicions -- why is the father down and out? Does he really have some benevolent interests in his daughter, yet he knows from their past dynamics he must conceal them to get Kate to take care of herself? Does he have his eyes open about the strengths and weaknesses of his two daughters? What about Kate? Who is she really? As a reader, I don't know yet. What you point out supports what you eventually know. To the new reader, is she naive or compassionate? Beautiful or vain or proud or even careless about her beauty -- I couldn't be certain from the way James phrases his descriptions. Yes, the clues are there. But, it seems to me they can still be shifted in more than one direction. And, that is one of the things I liked about the introduction in terms of its writing. It led me to want to keep reading to find out.

[MadgeUK]

I'm obviously a sissy.

[Bill]

Man up, Madge. :-)

Lily, I don't know that I agree. What in the first chapter suggests that Kate is vain or that Lionel shows good intentions? Where's the language? That's something, I guessing, you're bringing to the reading the possibilities of any father or any daughter. But I don't think you can make a case for it from the first chapter. I think James is quite clear. And if there was any doubt about mercenary qualities of her father, it's settled by the line that the father thought she should have shared her inheritance with him, rather than his widowed daughter with four children to feed.

And, hey, I could be wrong. What I know may make it easier to see what is there. But I don't see ambiguity. Where is it precisely? At this point, I think what I am reading is what's in the chapter and not colored by the fact that I know the plot.

[Lily]

Bill wrote: "Man up, Madge. :-)

Lily, I don't know that I agree. What in the first chapter suggests that Kate is vain or that Lionel shows good intentions? Where's the language? That's something, I guessing, ..."

For goodness sakes, it's "woman up" to Madge at least, isn't it?

I am just telling you how the chapter read to me. It is terribly difficult to point out lines or text that support what one as a reader hasn't found yet. I realize fully that what is there gets borne out -- I've learned enough of the story to know that. But what was brilliant to me was that the story had enough question marks about what in the world is going on in that initial chapter to peak me as a reader to want to keep reading. "Tell a lot, be able to say it was all there if you knew how to look, but, see, I got you to read this thing" writing! How did James do it? I'm probably not enough of a writer or critic myself to pull it apart and tell you or myself, but at least I am too lazy to try this morning -- or rather I need to get someone to the airport! I can only report what James did for at least this reader.

[Bill]

No, it's always man up. It's just funnier when you say it to a woman. :-)

But if there were question marks, they have to be in the writing (either literally or metaphorically), and I don't see them. You can wonder what more there is to it, you can wonder what Lionel did to cause loss of a name and fortune -- but I don't think there's ANYTHING here that suggests Lionel cares about anything but what is best for him. The end of the chapter shows just who he is: he is offended that Kate didn't share her inheritance with HIM -- but rather her sister with four mouths to feed. We may not like the sister much more than Lionel, but she has a better case. And it is not clear to what extent -- if any -- Lionel himself isn't to blame for the family's loss of name and fortune.

As for Kate being vain, there's nothing here to suggest it and there's information to the contrary.

You said that I was reading into the Chapter I what I knew but wasn't there. If you're suggesting that I'm misreading something, you have to show me where. Pending deliveries to the airport, of course. Maybe occasional eating. A nap. Things like that.

The whole game of reading and then thinking about it is connecting your feelings with the specifics of what's written -- and then seeing where you go from there.

[MadgeUK]

No, it's always man up. It's just funnier when you say it to a woman. :-)

Really?

[Linda2]

I'm also influenced by having seen the film 3 times. I might even borrow it from the library again. ::cackles in delight::

Maybe Madge and I can go into a quiet corner and choose another book for this session.

[Linda2]

Has Laurele quit? I don't see her anymore. Maybe she'll join Madge and me.

[Laurel]

Rochelle wrote: "Has Laurele quit? I don't see her anymore. Maybe she'll join Madge and me."

I'm here, and I'm still listening to the book. I think I'm on part four now. It all seems quite straightforward so far. I'm enjoying it. My experience listening to it leads me to think that perhaps the secret to understanding James's long sentences is simply to read faster. So far, there is nothing whatsoever to lead me to think that Lionel is anything other than a complete rat.

[MadgeUK]

Some thoughts: The very first sentence of the novel is 'She waited, Kate Croy…for her father to come in…' It is perhaps important that James introduces us to the character of Kate without telling us much about her personality, only about what she is doing. In other words (and not for the first time), James puts his verb before the subject, so that we see Kate first as someone who 'waits'. Later she 'waited', 'remained', 'took a brief stand', 'continued to wait, 'showed herself', 'looked', 'tasted', 'felt the room', and she 'felt the street.' James goes so far as to expound (via Kate’s consciousness) that she has thoughts about about 'the way she might still pull things round had she only been a man.' This manipulation of language (his grammatical convolutions) by James are not IMO without underlying meaning. Annoying as they may be, they establish subjective attitudes and motivations. Will passivity continue to be Kate's function? Will other characters be introduced who 'do' or whom she expects to 'do', or manipulate into doing? Will the grammar of the sentences surrounding them be equally significant?

Also, will Kate turn out to be any the less reprobate than her father, whose mysterious illness may ultimately be a mitigating factor since we assume that she is healthy and of sound mind?

[Linda2]

Laurele wrote: "...I'm here, and I'm still listening to the book. I think I'm on part four now. It all seems quite straigh...
perhaps the secret to understanding James's long sentences is simply to read faster."

or to HEAR it read. D/L now.

But you're also reading The Iliad. This is child's-play to you. :-)

[MadgeUK]

Correction - Homer is child's play to James!

I am reminded that my first job when I came to London was as a technical writer translating American computer manuals into English. Long sentences, long paragraphs and convoluted English were de rigeur there too!:O Like those manuals, James has a high 'fog index'.

http://www.readabilityformulas.com/gu...

[Bill]

Madge, I think you're right. Kate is poised to do something in love with a man unable to make money -- or at least that's his own evaluation of his prospects. Her sister and father went her to get maximum value for her beauty on the ,marriage market and Maud wants her to get maximum value in the eyes of society, which will of course reflect on Maud. Kate wants the freedom to shows whom she wants -- but her options are limited as a woman. I think the line that is thinking of what she might do if she were a man is telling.

[MadgeUK]

I rather think that Kate wants her cake and wants to eat it and that her 'reprobatism' will soon show...

Meanwhile, it would seem that Aunt Maud has had a word with Merton's editor!

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "I am reminded that my first job when I came to London was as a technical writer translating American computer manuals into English. Long sentences, lo..."

So you feel those of us who are programmers can get through the book more easily. ;-)

[Lily]

Bill wrote: "...but I don't think there's ANYTHING here that suggests Lionel cares about anything but what is best for him...."

Well, he seems to want Kate to marry well (wealthy), and it is as if he thinks Aunt Maud is more likely to be able to get that to happen than he could. (Sure, any romance worth its salt raises questions about what "marrying well" does or should mean.) He doesn't seem to think it would bode well for Kate to share what comes across as his paltry existence. (Why does she want to anyway?)

I really can't quote what isn't in the text, and it seems to me that is where James places the "hey, reader, you want to know more than I've told you, don't you?"

"As for Kate being vain, there's nothing here to suggest it and there's information to the contrary."

A woman (or even a man, ala Joyce or Narcissus?) concerned with the reflection from a mirror, even if she turns away from it, is somehow concerned about ego, self, perhaps vanity, in my reading lexicon, which may be too severe a mental shorthand.

[[deleted user]]

Laurele wrote: So far, there is nothing whatsoever to lead me to think that Lionel is anything other than a complete rat."i>

Once or twice I wondered whether perhaps he "rejected" Kate because he wanted to make sure she married someone with money, so that she wouldn't live poor... And then I read those pages again... and no.