Outlander Series discussion
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Dragonfly in Amber
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Group Re-Read of Dragonfly in Amber! Topic Question found in post 183 on page 4
It's interesting how we all read. I don't think I've ever googled or tried to translate text. I feel like they usually explain what is being said, and if they don't, well I'm sure I'll find out at some point.Though I seem to be the minority. I find that now that I have my Kindle, I will use the definition feature on it more then I would have grabbed a dictionary.
Anyway, that's seriously off topic, just a random thought I had, lmao.
LOL I downloaded a Scottish to english translator tool bar onMy computer.
It was not the history so much that made me like DIA less it was the politics. I know you cannot divorce politics from history I just find it slow and tedious to read. I didn't mind the historical aspects in later books and actually find it intrigueing that so many people and events are real. (like the "Ms. Abernathy" that Geillis was portraying) I also think it is hilarious that Claire and Jamie were involved with so many historical figures. It is like how another poster put it in a different thread, Claire is like the Forrest Gump of that time.
Also love everyone's individual "take" on these books!Wendy...you're probably right about Young Ian getting too old but like the idea of Jemmy and also heard somewhere that DG might some day write a prequel to Outlander about Jamie's parents. (and I also LOVE my Kindle and use the definiton feature a LOT! :D)
Carren...it's amazing that we pick up so much more detail with each read :)
Lori...I also have a problem with the different languages; I think DG writes that way to make it more authentic to the historical time; such a gifted author! :)
Fawn...great idea to download a translator tool bar!
Diane...agree that the politics is probably why I have trouble with the middle of DFIA; but it's worth it to get to the end and then on to Voyager :)
I love DIA! Love. It. My favorite part about Outlander (and what I tell people that I recommend the book to) is that it transported me to 18th century Scotland. I could see, smell, and taste it...DG is amazing. That being said I loved my trip to France too! I enjoyed the history & the politics. :) I enjoyed J & C's relationship evolving. It all felt very real to me. I am also a huge fan of Master Raymond! I am listening to DIA now and Claire is in Raymond's shop and my battery died :( I think I was able to relax and adjust to DIA b/c I had Voyager through ABOSSA in a stack ready to read in sitting next to me.
Sara, I love the way you described that! "Outlander was the introduction, Dragonfly the beginning..."Verra nice.
Wendy F wrote: "The feeling of the book changed in this second one. Outlander, while still a historical fiction, was focused more on the romance. Dragonfly in Amber, starts to focus more on the history. How did..."I am enjoying the historical aspect of the book very much, but I find that keeping up with all those French names is a bit daunting. :) Regardless of that, I like this book better than Outlander - it has really drawn me in and keeps me on the edge of my seat!
Sara wrote: "Outlander was the introduction, Dragonfly the beginning..."Beautiful and perfectly said!
Leah wrote: "I love DIA! Love. It. My favorite part about Outlander (and what I tell people that I recommend the book to) is that it transported me to 18th century Scotland. I could see, smell, and taste it...D..."Leah...remember reading either here or possibly in The Outlandish Companion that DG wants to write a novel about Master Raymond.
I would so love to read a novel about him. He is such a strange and mysterious character.
I love Historical Fiction, so the history aspect really appealed to me. I understood the history much better during the re-read. The first time I read Outlander and DIA I was a little lost since I didn't have the first clue about Bonnie Prince Charlie and Culloden. I feel I have a much better grasp on it now. Another interesting book that really dives deep into the reasons for the Jacobite rising is The Winter Sea.
I think reading the Winter Sea actually gave me a better understanding of the uprising than Outlander and wished I read it first. Or maybe I just understood The Winter Sea better because I already read outlander. I liked the Winter Sea but not nearly as mush as Outlander.
just remember that The Winter Sea covers the first Jacobite rising, not the one from outlander
Reading The Winter Sea, I got a much better grasp of the whole Jacobite rebellion. I know that book covers it from James' attempt in 1715, but I still had a better understanding of *why* James tried to take the throne and thought his family should rule and *how* the whole mess came about, thus why Bonnie Prince Charles and many Scots and British thought that the Stewarts (Stuarts?) were the rightful heirs. Plus the discussion was precise and brief - to the point. And bonus - it's a great story, too!Almost makes me want to go back in time and do away with Henry VIII for starting the whole war with religion and politics! What a mess he caused! Then again, that would be like Claire & Jamie trying to stop Bonnie Prince Charlie, so according to the DG time-travel theory, I wouldn't be successful.
We're introduced to some strong important new characters in France, such as Mother Hildegarde, Master Raymond, Charles, and Fergus. What did you think of these characters, and which one interested you the most?
Master Raymond interested me the most. I think he was such a strange character surrounded in intriguing mystery. I cannot wait till she writes the story about his background. Mother Hildegard was also interesting and I love how she seemed progressive for her time. Of course gotta love Fergus but I am less intrigued with him because we grow with him as the series grows. Charles is who he is so he does not make me think beyond the obvious.
Was there anyone else who you think stood out? I'm just curious if I missed anyone.I really loved Mother Hildegarde. The way she cared for people and her whole nature, and Bouton. I especially love it when we found out that she could play and compose, she was just such a surprise.
I picture Master Raymond looking a bit like Danny Divito
I also really liked Master Raymond. A fascinating character.Very fond of Fergus; he is what I would classify as a tortured soul.
I really like Mother Hildefarde because she was so pragmatic. She said what was on her mind, but also was able to show sympathy when needed (when Claire lost the baby).Charles was an idiot as far as I was concerned. According to the history books, his father told him not to pursue this venture, but his ego was too big to allow that. He was immature, didn't know the first thing about going to war and then when he did, he hightailed out of Scotland so fast it would have made your head spin!
Fergus is/was a delight. His character really fits into the story line.
As for Master Raymond, he was one of the most mysterious men we've come across.
All of the characters are an intregal part of the story and what they did extended into the next book.
I felt about Master Raymond similar as Sara did: a little troll, more than weird. And how he "saved" Claire after her miscarriage ... Somehow I could not make up to like him, quite in contrast to Fergus. He actually grows up before our eyes. Thinking of the later books I just wonder whether he still would have this strong French accent when having lived among Scots since he was 10 years of age. Does anybody know whether this accent is also in the books or is my opinion based on the audio books?I also really love Mother Hildegarde. She immediately reminded me of Hildegard of Bingen. Though this saint lived much earlier in the 12th century and in what is now Germany, she was another remarkable woman and reached an age of 83, quite enormous for this time. Most of all I like her dogs, all were given the same name and they were numbered and buried in the hospital's graveyard with tombestone and all.
I was most fascinated by Master Raymond, partly because Claire was so fascinated by him. I pictured a stooped Anthony Hopkins (LOL). There was always the question of who and what he was, and whether he was truly some kind of sorcerer, and whether he was good or evil. When he "healed" Claire, I decided he must be good. But the scene with Claire, the Comte St. Germain, Master Raymond, and King Louis was... wow! (view spoiler) I can't wait to learn more about him.I loved Mother Hildegard immediately. While she wasn't exactly a warm and fuzzy, she was solid and dependable. She was a good friend to both Claire and Jamie, helping them with the music puzzle and then helping Claire after she lost Faith and Jamie was in the Bastille.
I also loved the music master - forget his name now. He was quirky enough that he made me laugh!
Wasn't overly fond of Bonnie Prince Charles... and it surprised me. Not that I was very knowledgeable about him, but I'd certainly heard some of the songs and stories that romanticized him. I never knew the true history behind the man until reading Dragonfly. I mostly felt sorry for him, because he seemed to be such a child and so naive. But then I was angered and irritated by him, because he was like a spoiled, petulant child who wouldn't take advice from his tutors or elders, only those who supported his own ideas of grandeur.
I wasn't sure about Louise for a long time. She seemed so vapid and foolish. But I started to warm towards her when she took Claire to Fountainbleu. I just wish she'd told Claire the truth about Jamie. But Louise tried to be a good friend to Claire, in her own way.
The Comte St. Germain was something to behold! And the suspicions surrounding him made him someone to be wary of, and yet he played the "court" game well. He made quite a debut on the docks when Claire proclaimed that ill sailor had small pox! I particularly relished his role in the infamous dinner party with Mary Hawkins. He was a good foil and misdirection, and yet I'm still not sure we know what he was really up to. I'm anxious to find out what really happened in the La Dame Le Blanc scene - last we saw, they were carrying St. Germain out of there a dead man. I always wondered about the Dragon's Blood and what Master Raymond did or didn't put in the cup; it seemed to me as if Raymond saw St. Germain as an ally, not an enemy. Guess we'll find out one of these days.
Fergus... he didn't make much impression on me until the scene where he takes off on the precious horse. And of course, when Claire learns what was really behind Jamie's duel with BJR. But even then, I was only mildly interested in Fergus. I don't think I really thought much about him until Voyager.
I loved Fergus right away, when Claire wakled in and he was playing the game that Jamie taught him and she said his tongue was sticking out of his mouth in concentration. Such a cutie.Thanks for bringing up a few other characters! I was trying to think of a list, but we can definitely chat about some of the others too.
The Comte St. Germain... he was loathesome. He'd be another one that would go in the 'characters I hate' thread. Like Boble, I really don't think there was much redeaming about him at all. Interesting though, how throughout the series his name is mentioned. For instance, in Outlander, Geilis had his grimoire.
I couldn't forget Louise, because she's responsible for one of the funniest moments (IMO) in the book: the scene when Claire returns from being waxed by Louise's personal groomer... and Jamie's reaction, especially to Claire telling him about Louise's waxing her "honeypot", as he called it!
Hahaha, that was one of the best scenes!
This book has so many funny scenes! We'll have to do a thread on the funny scenes in DIA.
I'll make that Sunday's topic starter!
Wendy F wrote: "Was there anyone else who you think stood out? I'm just curious if I missed anyone.I really loved Mother Hildegarde. The way she cared for people and her whole nature, and Bouton. I especially..."
I completely agree. She is such a strong, self-confident character who is comfortable with who she is and isn't. I also appreciated that she decided what she wanted to do with her life and hasn't waivered from that conviction.
Kathleenblack wrote: "Hi everyone. I'm new to the group and thrilled to have found you all. I was disturbed by the loss of twenty years between Jamie and Claire also. But now I think Diana was pretty clever to do this..."
I think that is such an excellent point. Most books always show the courtship and then usually end with the marriage or honeymoon. And of course that is the fun and easy part. But that is only the beginning. It takes real skill to develop characters that last a lifetime.
Tracy wrote: "Ok, I am already nearly 3 quarters of the way through and absolutely love this book. There are some of my favourite scenes and one of my favourite characters is introduced. I was also intrigued wit..."so who is your favorite character?
At first I did not like Brianna or Roger at all. But now I love them and can't get enough of them. I think my initial dislike was mostly disappointment at not having Jamie and Claire together. I think DG does an amazing job of growing characters. Jamie, Claire, Brianna, and Roger, they age naturally and mature and you as the reader grows with them.
As for the 20 year separation--it is hard, terrible, sad, depressing, necessary, and you can feel it with them. My heart breaks with them.
Brunhilde, very good point you made "necessary". I agree with that as sad as it was.
I guess I overlooked Fiona as a character introduced to us in this book, because we'd already talked a bit about her. But I *really like* Fiona - always did. She makes me smile, even when she's "after" Roger. But as annoying as she can be, she's tenacious. She's good for both Roger and Bree... (view spoiler)
Very true Lori. I can't help but wonder for Roger how he would have managed without her.
Brunhilde wrote: "Kathleenblack wrote: "Hi everyone. I'm new to the group and thrilled to have found you all. I was disturbed by the loss of twenty years between Jamie and Claire also. But now I think Diana was pr..."
I refer to your comment "most books always show th courtship...": How VERY true this is! And as we've known since Tucholsky's poem this is alos the reason why movies generally ae finished after the happy ending. DG however succeeds in drawing our attentions to plots that happen years afterwards.
Lori wrote: "I guess I overlooked Fiona as a character introduced to us in this book, because we'd already talked a bit about her. But I *really like* Fiona - always did. She makes me smile, even when she's "af..."Oh yes, of course we must not overlook Fiona. She faithfully follows her granny's footsteps. Though she does not seem the "right" wife for Roger, this does not seem she would not be happy with another man and be a good match for him. We will see how she cares about Bree and Roger (despite his repelling her admiration of him!) in the books still to come.
Wendy F wrote: "Was there anyone else who you think stood out? I'm just curious if I missed anyone.I really loved Mother Hildegarde. The way she cared for people and her whole nature, and Bouton. I especially..."
I really love Fergus.
I also love the idea of "funny scenes" the waxing one was for sure one of the best.
Great questions. Thanks Wendy.
Brunhilde wrote: "Wendy F wrote: "Was there anyone else who you think stood out? I'm just curious if I missed anyone.I really loved Mother Hildegarde. The way she cared for people and her whole nature, and Bouto..."
I agree - I love Fergus! He is my favorite. I can just picture this small boy with such extreme loyalty - and wisdom beyond his years.
Carol wrote: "Brunhilde wrote: "Wendy F wrote: "Was there anyone else who you think stood out? I'm just curious if I missed anyone.I really loved Mother Hildegarde. The way she cared for
And Fergus is so perfect for Jamie. They needed each other. Jamie needs people to care for and Fergus needed someone to care for him. I love that. I think that could be discussed as a thread. that idea in light of Langolire! Oh, I much to muse on today. (but I must collect my thoughts first)
These threads keep your brain busy don't they?! The older I get I think the better these discussions are for me. At least I delude myself to think so! lol
Of the new characters in DFIA, Fergus captured my heart the most, for the reasons Brunhilde stated. The scene that Wendy mentioned with Jamie and Fergus is SO precious!I love Mother Hildegarde for her strength and her little dog Bouton too. The music scene, figuring out the code, etc. interested me a lot since I was taking piano lessons and learning how to read music.
Master Raymond gave me the creeps at first and I wasn't sure if he was going to be a good guy or not. But he won me over when he saved Claire after the miscarriage. How he did it wasn't so strange as I was went thru some energy healing last year - it really is amazing.
Comte St. Germain - OMG, I can't stand him and have the nasty feeling that we haven't really seen the last of him.
Charles - reminds me of a spoiled immature Royal pain in the arse who only thinks of himself. Not very Bonnie, IMO.
Jamie and Ian come back together for the first time after everything that happened at the end of Outlander. What did you think about how their relationship played out? Was there anything that stood out?
No conversation in this thread all week? Were you guys burnt out? We should take a break?
Maybe it's due to Spring Break or Spring Fever and everybody is out and about? Things have been pretty quiet on another discussion group I'm in this past week :)
This question had me stumped a little bit...nothing creative or insightful comes to mind.I loved Jamie and Ian's relationship though. I thought that it was interesting that Jamie opened up to Ian and told him about what went down at Wentworth. That spoke volumes regarding their close relationship. (I actually haven't got to that in my reread(relisten)...I am still in France. I haven't had much down time this spring!
I'm with Leah - I was initially stumped.And I guess I was trying to think through the change in the relationship between Ian and Jamie. It was excruciating for Jamie to tell Ian about Wentworth and BJR - and probably about what Claire had to do to bring him back. As close as Jamie and Ian are, they're still men, and I couldn't help but feel that if Jamie hadn't tried to kill Ian in his sleep that Jamie would never have told Ian. It was too close - too personal. And it seemed that Ian didn't want to accept it, but perhaps it was just the shock of hearing about it and the pain of knowing that experience would always be with Jamie.
As close as it brought them (the scene where Ian told Jamie goodnight by calling him "brother" was heartbreaking), it also seemed to change their relationship. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it did change. Not that Ian and Jamie weren't still close, but it was almost the realization that they were growing apart - that their lives were moving in different directions. When Jenny insisted that Jamie take Ian with him, I felt the change even more then. Ian probably knew what Jamie was doing, but he was determined to do what *he* knew was best, and staying at Lallybroch rather than fighting at Jamie's side was best. It was if at that point, Jamie and Ian recognized that their lives were taking different paths, and no matter how close they were, the two of them weren't going to be in each others' pockets any more. They were truly going to live two different lives with two different purposes. And knowing that Ian would take care of Lallybroch, I think, gave Jamie the faith and ability to turn over Lallybroch to young Jamie when the time came.
And I think that Jamie envied Ian's fate. Once again, it seemed that choice was ripped away from Jamie. Prince Charlie's actions forced Jamie into action; to do otherwise would be to impune his own honor, something that Jamie could never do and still be Jamie. Jamie had to take the brunt of whatever was coming to protect those he loved. When we see the tension between Ian and Jamie in "Voyager", I think some of that bubbles up to the surface - it's why I think that Jamie was so angry (not that he didn't have a right to be just on the face of the argument with Ian). But I don't think either man truly acknowledged why and where that tension came from: Jamie resented and envied Ian, because Ian stayed away from Culloden and got to keep his wife, his children, and mostly his life. Ian had to fight hard to keep it, no doubt; but all that Jamie gave up, it seemed that Ian retained.
Well we're probably going to revisit Ian and Jamie again with the reread of the last book, so I just wanted to touch on them again. The procession of their friendship.I'm at work right now, but when I get home later I'll post a new topic question.
Their relationship reminds of my own brother's relationship with his best friend. They've been friends since kindergarten and the friendship is going on over fifty years. They've been through everything together, schools, marriage, kids... you name it they've probably been through it.No matter what happens or what happened, they're there for each other.
Well I really just loved the undertones between them. It really shows how deep their friendship is. Is there anything about the book that disappointed you? Anything specific you wish Diana had done different?
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And DG started using a lot more phrases in "other" languages, notably French. That bugged me sometimes, because figuring out the Gaelic was hard enough; but at least I could find a quick online translation and get the gist.
I have to admit though, the history here really made me dig in more and find out about Bonnie Prince Charlie, his father James the Pretender, France at that time, and the whole political background. And then I appreciated it more.