Outlander Series discussion
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Dragonfly in Amber
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Group Re-Read of Dragonfly in Amber! Topic Question found in post 183 on page 4
Wendy F wrote: "First official Question for Dragonfly in Amber!In the first initial chapters we're introduced to Brianna. How did you feel about her initially, clearly she is Jamie's offspring but raised in t..."
I was a little put off when I first read the book about being in 1968. I wanted to be back at the abbey with Jamie and Claire. Once I started reading and the description of how Bree looked I was like wow ... it was a true extension of Jamie. Then when they went back to Jamie and Claire in France, I was so excited for Jamie and the knowing that he had a daughter, even though I was a little sad to know he did not get to raise her being that she is in the 20th century.
I was a little confused at first, but then I thought it was very clever of DG to start the book in 1968. When I realized that Claire hadn't seen Jamie for 20 years I thought it was so sad! When she saw his tombstone it gave me chills!I never warmed up to Bree throughout all the books. I am going to try to like her more this go-round. :-)
When she was first described, there was no doubt in my mind that she was Jamie's daughter.
I really grew to love Roger Mac. His crush on Bree is too cute when they're doing their research.
I feel the same way about Roger, too. I always liked him, right from the beginning.
Does anyone ever feel like Claire is the Forest Gump of the 18th century as she flutters thru countries meeting the Duke of S, the King, Prince Charlie, the Frasers, etc. I remembered jumping on wiki several times to see if they were real or fictional characters. And in later books she continues to meet historical characters, but I'll avoid names for spoilers sake.
Lis wrote: "Does anyone ever feel like Claire is the Forest Gump of the 18th century as she flutters thru countries meeting the Duke of S, the King, Prince Charlie, the Frasers, etc. I remembered jumping on w..."Lis...great observation! :D
As to how I felt towards Bri; I liked her right from the beginning and have always had a soft spot in my heart for her and Roger. Even though she comes off at times as selfish and immature; I think back to how I was at that age plus I also came of age in the late 60's. Not sure I would have reacted any differently if my mom had told me that my real dad was a Scottish man from the 1700's!
I like Brianna too. Although I'm conflicted over the scene where she hurls the poker through the glass. Claire was clearly seeing the evidence of Jamie's Viking/Highlander blood flowing through her. But that was a pretty scary indication of her capacity for violence. Seems like it would have given Roger pause for thought as to pursuing a deeper relationship with her. By 20th century standards anyway!
Kathleenblack wrote: "I like Brianna too. Although I'm conflicted over the scene where she hurls the poker through the glass. Claire was clearly seeing the evidence of Jamie's Viking/Highlander blood flowing through her..."That scene just reminded me of a spoiled teen taking a bratty temper tantrum. I like Bree but often see her as a spoiled only child that needs to grow up. Though I love her character development where we left of with her as a mom who will kick serious butt if any one threatens her babies. That is where I like seeing that Highland temper.
After waiting a month for my next Audible credit, I finally have this in audiobook! Although I just finished rereading the e-book version no more than 3-4 weeks ago, I still can't wait to listen to it! hahaOh, hmm. Yes, on-topic. Bree, is it? I didn't feel strongly about her one way or another. I remembered feeling surprised by how many people seemed to actively dislike her. (view spoiler) I kind of liked Roger because he seemed really nice. His crush on Brianna was cute. But I think that the only time I thought he was pretty hot was when (view spoiler).
I feel if Bree is a spoiled only child or just a spoiled child it is Frank who spoiled her. I have always liked Bree.
Enjoying all the comments on Bri; shows how each of us connect with different characters.DG is great at developing characters that grow with age and also with their experiences. Bri's storyline is one of my favs as she does mature.
Sara, I always took Bri's personality to have come from Jamie, but really like your take on Bri getting her "spunk and strength" from Jenny. I could see that much more clearly this time around reading Outlander.
Peggy--I agree with you that much of Bree's personality came from both Jamie and Jenny, but I really think her "indepence" and way of thinking came from Claire and to an extent, from Frank. To me Claire has always been an independent woman ( she becam a doctor when women weren't doing that as much as they are now) and Frank taught her how to "survive", ie riding, shooting, etc.. . I know that during her early times with Jamie, she did depend on him, but later on, that self reliance started to come through. Bree's the product of four very different personalities.
Very good points Carren and Peggy!
Many of us seem to be astonished/appalled by the scene in which Brianna hurls the poker through the window. I do not think this is (just) being spoilt, it depends mainly on your temperament and how you are able to cope with it. I also do not think this being only a paternal heritage! Example: Some 1000s of pages later in ABOSAA, after another of Brianna's tantrums (view spoiler), Claire tells Jamie: "You know, she's got this from you!" I remember another scene from Voyager, however, when Claire reacts in a similar way: Talking to Roger, she recalls the early stages of motherhood (view spoiler) For me this is quite similar a behaviour as Bree and sometimes Jamie show. Maybe, not to master your temeperatment is a sign of being spoilt. Would anyone say that Jamie is /was spoilt, though?I also think the Brianna did very well (view spoiler)
Wendy F wrote: "Welcome to our March & April group reread of the second book in the Outlander series!Starting this Sunday, and ever Sunday after, I or Leea will be adding discussion topics. These will not be ..."
Is it too late to join the group discussion? I've just started re-reading the book over the weekend and can't believe how hooked I've become! (I am on page 70 or so.) My first read was many years ago, so I had forgotten many of the events.
I never saw Bree as spoiled. Who among us hasn't thrown some sort of tantrum, if not outwardly, then inside our heads. Or wanted to, but were too bound up in "appearances" to let go. Plunk me the circumstances they face and I would probably have a few episodes of acting out, too.
It's never too late Carol, Welcome to the discussion!
What Fawn said! It's never too late!I'm sorry, folks. This weekend was a rough one for me. I missed posting the next topic question!
In Dragonfly Roger is at the Manse cleaning it out and we find out that Fiona is the Grandaughter of Ms Graham's. What did you guys think of the dynamic between Fiona and Roger in comparison to Ms Graham and Reverend Wakefield?
I feel like they are total opposites, both in mind & body. Mrs. Graham,thin polished,Proper & very self assured. Fiona, Pretty, more round then thin, seems desperate to be married,an not so proper, butI know times have changed since Mrs. Graham. I think they both are care takers at heart so that is one thing in common. I can't imagine that Mrs. Graham came on to the Reverend though.
I always thought that the Rev and Mrs. Graham's relationship was almost like a married couple,very set in their ways, but very comfortable with each other. I'm not sure about the love aspect, though. Though they most likely "loved" each other, it wasn't on the same level that we all come to think about it. I do think that Roger, while growing up, did depend on them as much as any child would depend on their mother and father. He had neither, so the Rev and Mrs. Graham stepped up to the plate.As for Roger and Fiona, their's was a relationship that was certainly one sided. In my mind Fiona was just too immature for Roger. Of course, once Roger met Bree, Fiona knew she'd never have him.
My take was that the Rev and Mrs. Graham represented their "time" - a couple, and yet not. She was the housekeeper (a servant), and he was the "master". They were very comfortable in their roles and likely never crossed the lines in any kind of romantic encounter. But the Rev relied on Mrs. G to take care of him and Roger - as a mother or wife would do for her family.Fiona and Roger were the "modern" equivalent, showing just how much time changed the roles. Fiona was all about crossing the line into a romantic encounter, and she threw herself at Roger. She had just enough "properness" not to slip naked into his bed, but she made it clear that if he slipped into her bed, she wouldn't object.
But to Fiona's credit, she picked up on Roger's attraction for Bree (and vice versa); it didn't seem as if Fiona waited that long before moving on - to Ernie. And despite Roger rejecting her, Fiona seemed to stay loyal to him - she kept her affection for him as a friendship. When Roger needed anything (later on), Fiona was the first to offer help.
Carren and Lori,You both looked more in depth on this much better than I did. Very well said; Both of you!
Fawn, you are right, though - both Mrs. Graham and Fiona are caretakers! And they're both very helpful - one could argue, necessary to the story and to both Claire and Roger. Just think, without Mrs. G, we wouldn't have that nice bit of palm reading about Claire... and probably Jamie & Claire would have marked each other in a different way or in a different location. I always thought Mrs. G was the cause of the location that they chose to mark each other.
Well and remember, without Fiona they wouldn't have gotten all the information that the needed about (view spoiler).So in that way Fiona and Mrs Graham were similar too. They were both a bit intuned to what was going on around them.
I personally felt that Mrs Graham and Fiona were a lot alike. One was more modern than the other, definitely, but their core was the same. Loyal and caring, honest and friendly. I think that maybe the reason why mrs Graham and Reverent wakefields relationship was the way it was, was because of his religious calling. Perhaps if he had only been a historian, like Roger, she may have hinted for more.
Having a granddaughter of Fiona's age, Mrs. Graham was obviously older than Fiona - and probably not in need of a husband. I am only about 70 pages into the book at the moment, but I have found Fiona to be just as annoying as Roger does. :) However, I am sure she will play a pivotal role in events to come.
Wendy, do you mean you think that the Rev's religious calling interfered with romance or because Mrs. G was the "caller" for the stones (Druid)?
I am also wondering about the similarities between Ms. Graham and Ms. Fitzgibbons back at Castle Leoch. I loved Ms. Fitz! Fiona seems a bit frivolous but a nice person. She annoyed me also especially when Roger was in the tub.
Well I was meaning more Rev's calling, but you raise an excellent point.Diane, that's another good comparison!
Carol wrote: "Having a granddaughter of Fiona's age, Mrs. Graham was obviously older than Fiona - and probably not in need of a husband. I am only about 70 pages into the book at the moment, but I have found Fi..."Welcome to the group! Did you start a rereading of DIA or of the complete series? I'm just wondering that you are annoyed with Roger, and would be even more so if you had yet read till the end of Echo. Please give us details!
Lotte wrote: "Carol wrote: "Having a granddaughter of Fiona's age, Mrs. Graham was obviously older than Fiona - and probably not in need of a husband. I am only about 70 pages into the book at the moment, but I..."Thanks for the welcome! I am actually rereading DIA (first time circa 1995?), but this is as far as I have gotten in the series. I would really like to finish it this time! :)
It isn't Roger that I find annoying, but Fiona. In fact, I think Roger is great! I have felt a bit sorry for him - especially in the scene where he is trying to take a bath! lol
Hahaha, It was pretty forward. I'm not sure why I found her funny.
Wendy, I laughed Out loud at the same time saying (also out loud) Leave him alone Fiona!
The bath thing with Roger... it was forward of Fiona and very annoying, but I think that Fiona was becoming more obvious, just in case Roger was being a typical man and not picking up on her hints. And I also think that Fiona was a bit desperate, thinking that with the vibes between Roger and Bree, it might be her (Fiona's) only chance to make it clear what her intentions were.But it made me laugh out loud, too. Fiona is such a pip. Sometimes she reminds me a little bit of Jenny, and we all know that Jenny wasn't shy when it came to what she wanted!
I think it was because I think most of the time Roger was amused by it. He cared for her too.
Do all of you refer to the time when Roger ended up in the tub and no towels were in the bathroom? If Fiona did that on purpose, she might have felt rather clever, but to no avail.@Carol, you really have to go on with the series this time! I'm really surprised you could stop reading after DIA. In 1996 the next one - Voyager - must have been out yet. Attracted by the cover of Fiery Cross, especially by the brooch with the two stags, I bought this book neither knowing what this was about nor knowing that this was the 5th in a series. I put in on the shelf and when I remembered it again after several months, I was rather surprised that I would need 4 more books to fully enjoy this one. This means that I was really lucky in my early experiences with the Outlander series to be able to go on with the next book whenever one was finished. When you browse a bit in our comments, you will see what an awful time most of us experience when we wait for the next novel. At present we cannot really understand how long it will be till no. 8 will be published. I think this group reread will be a good chance for you to catch up. You won't regret it, I'm sure!
I actually tried to start Voyager, but never finished it...not sure why. Nevertheless, my reading tastes have changed a lot since my younger years :), so I am looking forward to finishing the series this time!
Welcome aboard, Carol! Can't wait to hear more of your thoughts on Dragonfly in Amber... and I hope you'll stick with us through Voyager, at least. Voyager is my 2nd fav, next to the 1st book, but I know that it's not everyone's fav. It'll be fun to hear your take on it.
Lori wrote: "Welcome aboard, Carol! Can't wait to hear more of your thoughts on Dragonfly in Amber... and I hope you'll stick with us through Voyager, at least. Voyager is my 2nd fav, next to the 1st book, but ..."Lori I think Voyager is my second favorite after Outlander also. I know so many people LOVE Dragonfly in Amber but I didn't like all the political stuff so it is not high on my Outlander list. (ofcourse it is still a great book compared to other series by other authors)
if I had to pick, I would say outlander, then voyager as well...I hated DFiA at first, it wasn't until my second/third read through that I realized how important it was to the story
Dee wrote: "if I had to pick, I would say outlander, then voyager as well...I hated DFiA at first, it wasn't until my second/third read through that I realized how important it was to the story"Dee...I also wasn't crazy about DIA the first time I read it; then only gave it 3 stars because I did love the beginning and the ending; but the middle in France seemed to drag on and on. I enjoyed it much more the 2nd and 3rd time around and upped my rating to 4 stars. Will have to see if I rate it 5 stars after this read! :D
It was the end of last year, late fall when I reread DFIA. I plugged in my ipod for a listen while driving to town (a winding mountain road). I forgot about the confusing beginning - 1968 - 20 years has gone by?! I nearly crashed the car trying to scroll thru my ipod, looking for the "missing" book #2 LOL! Luckily, I didn't wreck the car and figured it out. Geez.I liked Bree and loved Roger from the beginning. I joke about making Bree faces when sipping whisky. This time during my reread of the series, I've decided to give Scotch single malt a try, which I've discussed on the Visit Scotland board. I'm slowly developing a taste for it and have consumed a few bottles already :)
Fiona cracked me up during the bathtub scene! I felt that she planned it - the missing towels. Roger is even cuter while he tolerates Fiona's attentions. As for the comparison of the two relationships, I felt Ms Graham and Rev. Wakefield was a caring but strictly respectful of boundaries, employee/employer type relationship. Fiona sees Roger as marriage material, possibly. Isn't she just helping him out while he's at the house, packing things up?
Lisa wrote: "It was the end of last year, late fall when I reread DFIA. I plugged in my ipod for a listen while driving to town (a winding mountain road). I forgot about the confusing beginning - 1968 - 20 year..."Lisa...so glad that you didn't crash! :D
Yep, the beginning is very confusing; that's the magic of DG's writing abilities..you have to keep turning those pages to find out where the plot is taking us. :)
I'm not reading DFIA until I finish another book I just started so not commenting on Fiona; don't remember how I felt about her other then she seemed desparate to marry. Even though this will be my 4th reread I always find new details that I didn't catch during the other reads!
Well I am about 2/3 the way through DIA :) I have found that because of the way the story started, we know she is in Scotland for the Culloden battle -thought Jamie was dead - left for her own time - he really didn't die when she thought he did. I found that even though when the book flashes back and we get the details, I have less compulsion to read it because I know the outcome. And the 20years kills me everytime I think about it!!
That is true Alasa, but if Claire had not come back to her own time I don't think Jamie, Claire or Briana would be alive. There are a lot of details to look at even though your feeling you know the outcome. There is so much we don't even think about that becomes important later.
I appreciate all of the hearth-keepers in the Outlander series. Mrs. Graham, Fiona, Ms. Fitzgibbons keeping the home fires burning. They're an effective counter-balance to all of the wild adventures taking place. Love the scenes of domestic bliss woven between the kidnappings, murders, assaults and other assorted acts of mayhem.
Nice point Kathleen! I've never looked at them like that and I love the name, "hearth keepers"! I think that I'll start calling myself that :)
The feeling of the book changed in this second one. Outlander, while still a historical fiction, was focused more on the romance. Dragonfly in Amber, starts to focus more on the history. How did this effect you? Was it harder or easier?
Wendy...another great question.For me it was easier. My favorite books have almost always been historical fiction more then historical romance.
For some reason the first time I read DFIA I felt that the middle part of the book when they were in France dragged. I really loved the beginning as it seemed to be setting up the story to go in a new direction and added 2 of my favorite characters, Bri & Roger.
Each re-read has brought new understanding of the importance of the French storyline. And I've enjoyed the emphasis on the history more with each book.
So for me it was easier for the focus to switch to the historical details and also for the storyline to include so many memorable characters. I've always felt that if the story had only focused on Jamie and Claire that it would have been somewhat difficult for DG to keep the series going for as long as she has. In fact this is slightly off topic but I'm hoping that she will eventually write a new series based on Young Ian.
Me too Peggy! Though I have a feeling that when this series is all said and done, Ian will be past the age for starting another epic series. Maybe one book, but not a series. Another good idea for a spinoff book would be Jemmy.For me, I first read this series the first time when I was a teenager, so over 15 years ago, lol. Back then I'll have to say that Dragonfly was much harder than Outlander was. It was the relationship between Jamie and Claire that made me fall in love with this series, so having that as the driving focus of the first book was what sold me. Having that relationship sort of set on the backburner (per se) to the history of the war and the politics was hard for me, as a teen.
But every reread since that first one I've walked away from it was a deeper understanding. Now when I reread Dragonfly I love the History and I love that the books didn't stay focusing on Jamie and Claire only, because I agree, it couldn't be as magnificent as it is had it stayed like that. All that historical strife is what kept their relationship interesting.
I have to say that I still struggle with the politics, but now as an adult, I love the Historical aspect.
The historical aspect of all the books has always been one of the things that kept me reading. Don't get me wrong, Jamie and Claire will always come first! I've always loved history. I used to tell my kids that everyday they created their own history, although not on a scale like Culloden, but something they'll remember.
While I don't have a "real" favorite book of the series, DIA, is one that I've read a few times and each time I find something that I'd forgotten about.
Since reading the Outlander series, I find myself looking for more historical fiction books to read.
This series has had a real affect on me!
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It took me a second, but I remebered who Roger was almost right away. I thought it was a great way to segway from the first book to the second.