Wings of the Dove, The: Background & Resources

[Bill]

Thanks. I do get all that. It's just that I thought it would be more than about 1-2%. But maybe that the right percentage.

[MadgeUK]

Date notwithstanding, Don Juan is not a novel, it is a satiric poem, so would not be suitable for the next group read.

[MadgeUK]

Date notwithstanding, Don Juan is not a novel, it is a satiric poem, so would not be suitable for the next group read. You could give it a go in the Poetry section and see if you have any takers.

It has also been suggested that we do something shorter and lighter for the next read. If we go back to the 1800s we could try Fielding's Joseph Andrews which is a parody of Richardson's Pamela and a satire of the turbulent politics of the time. However, the earlier styles of writing might not suit this group, who seem very fond of the Victorian and Edwardian writers. Austen of course fits into the earlier time frame but she is discussed ad infinitum elsewhere.

It might be nice to do an American writer like Hawthorne,whose style is very different to the English Victorians. Silver had also suggested Stendhal's Scarlet and Black, which would take us out of our English comfort zone.

As an Englishwoman, I like Wharton, and she was a good gardener too:D

[MadgeUK]

The next read has to fall between 1800 and 1835.

That was a suggestion from Silver Bill, not a command. If we nominate and vote for a book that falls outside of that time slot that will be the book we read.

Byron's Don Juan is a satirical poem not a novel and so not suitable for a group read. You could try 'flying' it in the poetry section and see if you get any takers. Nor do we read contemporary biographies here, although we often refer to them and several of us have read the Hermoine Lee.

For an 1800s read we could try Fielding's Joseph Andrews which is a novel satirising the turbulent politics of the day. And of course Austen fits the Bill but she is read elsewhere ad infinitum.

For a change from English novels, Silver's earlier suggestion of Stendhal's Scarl;et and Black might be suitable although I would prefer to tackle a Zola, like Therese Raquin, which is fairly short.

Scott's Waverley novels fall into an earlier time slot and deal with an even earlier period of Scottish history - I believe Lily suggested one of these?

As an Englishwoman, I like Wharton's tales of Edwardian American life, and she was a good gardener too:D.

But this is a WotD background thread - we should be posting Nomination ideas in the Nomination section.

[Bill]

I did not read Silver's instructions as a suggestion -- and no one who has responded has taken it as a suggestion. I've posted in the Nominations thread several times, where I've argued strongly for Don Juan and the centrality of poetry. Here, I was simply responding to Rochelle's post about Wharton.

But, more seriously, there's no reason to limit group reads to novels. That's not the stated purpose. The stated purpose of the group is to read

some of the World’s literature, with a primary emphasis on the great books, short stories and poetry of the late-18th century to the early-20th century." (Italics mine.)

Poems work well, and The Iliad is an excellent case in point. I would argue for the CENTRALITY of poetry in English literature as a whole and AT LEAST parity with novels in the 19th century. Blake, Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Browning and Tennyson are at least as important as Dickens, Eliot, Thackeray and Austen. It's only in the second half of the 20th century that one can make the case that poetry is no longer central.

I never have a problem with short. I have no problem with light, depending on how it's defined. If it's defined as trivial, then that's exactly the sort of book one can read on his or her own. We want company for support in more difficult intellectual endeavors -- where there are difficulties.

As for Henry James, I added the Norton Critical Edition of The Wings of the Dove. Some of the essays look interesting -- I'll let people know when I get to them.

There is, of course, Leon Edel's biography, either abridged in one volume or all 5 volumes.

[MadgeUK]

The group was founded by Chris and myself to read works, mainly novels, of a certain time period and poetry was deliberately given separate threads, which can be expanded if you wish to include a reading of Don Juan or any other work. This is the way we have operated for several years now. Modern biographies and essays do not come within the time frame but of course can be recommended as background material - this is the purpose of the Background & Resources thread which is appended to each reading.

Reading poetry is not as popular as reading novels and would soon cut down group participation. Those who are interested in poetry post to the Poetry threads but as you can see, there are few takers there, despite the efforts of some of us to promote poetry. All you have to do to start a Don Juan or Byron thread is to click on Poet's Corner/New topic. No-one is questioning the importance of poetry to literature but it just is not as popular as prose. The Iliad is being read as part of the Western Canon and by people interested in reading that canon and Don Juan scarcely compares, Eugene Onegin maybe.

Also, if you wish to start a book club which gives equal emphasis to novels and poetry Goodreads gives you ample opportunity elsewhere to do so.

[Bill]

Ah, I didn't realize you were a founder!! Well, congratulations on what you've accomplished! Where's Chris?

I wasn't serious about the Hermione Lee biography -- I was merely indicating I wasn't entirely uncurious about Wharton. And while I have no interest in her gardening books -- I grew up believing flowers were manufactured by florists and I still don't know how one plants in the natural soil of concrete and asphalt -- I wouldn't mind reading one her books on interior decoration. :-)

I wasn't saying that Don Juan has the importance of The Iliad -- I was merely saying The Iliad was a poem? Of course, if you look at the Western literary canon, yes, Don Juan is a part of it. It's a big canon. The Western Canon reading group is really based on the Great Books program which is something different, with lots of philosoophy, not merely novels.

I realize poetry is not as popular as reading novels. Why do you think I'm wearing black and rending my garments? Why do I wear this mournful expression? Why do I break down sobbing in coffee shops? Madge, please, a little sensitivity. Do you think I would dress this way normally?

I blame the universities and fashionable approaches to narrative structure which has take the focus from lyric poems in the heyday of the new criticism. When I was in the university, poetry was central for literature. Then theoretical concerns began to focus on "narrative". More's the pity.

I seek to return poetry to its central place. It is a quest no less noble, if no less possible, than that (those?) of Don Quixote. But at least we can die trying. It beats just getting hit by a car or having a heart attack. As Cicero ended his speeches, "Carthage must be destroyed" I end mine (and I give so many speeches) but first poetry must be returned to its central place.

I'd settle for an improvement, but don't tell anyone.

I'm also opposed to the notion of light reading as a choice for group discussion. I'm not at all opposed to light reading. I'm not sure it needs discussion, however.

[MadgeUK]

Chris has run into a heavy work programme. Silver has kindly taken over the moderating.

Perhaps you should seek to return poetry to its central place elsewhere because there has been no clamour for it here. As I have suggested in the Group Read Nominations thread, put your fingers where your mouth is and start a Don Juan thread in Poet's Corner and see how it goes.

Several folks here have participated in the Western Canon threads for several years and know all about the emphasis on the Great Books programme.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "" Why do you think I'm wearing black"

Here I was thinking it was your tribute to Johnny Cash. ;-)

Writing on phone until Tuesday...therefore mostly not writing.

[Bill]

That too. And Hamlet. But not Stephen Daedalus in Ulysses. Stephen annoys me. :-)

[Lily]

I know you can all Google, but here is a good site for the WotD text: http://www.online-literature.com/henr...

Do be warned that there is a spoiler introduction to the text if that sort of thing is off-putting to you.

[Linda2]

Adelle wrote: "Bill wrote: "" Why do you think I'm wearing black"

I thought he was in mourning for the 99%, as only 1% participates. ;-)

[MadgeUK]

I often use the OnlineLiterature website Lily but was annoyed to find that for WotD they are listing the chapters through instead of by Book and chapter, so pinning a phrase down can be difficult. I have been entering the phrase into Google first to locate the Book/chapter.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "I often use the OnlineLiterature website..."

There are a number of those sites. Bartleby, Gutenberg, Univ. of Virginia, etc. The formatting varies.

[Bill]

Rochelle wrote: "Adelle wrote: "Bill wrote: "" Why do you think I'm wearing black"

I thought he was in mourning for the 99%, as only 1% participates. ;-)"

I know you're winking, but for the record, it's not what I ever said or suggested. I was suggesting we could bring another 1% in the fold.

As for editions of Wings I have a few, but I just discovered that Kindle has a free edition (without Books OR Chapters but I have other editions.) This is useful because the Kindle online software -- not Barnes & Noble -- lets you cut and paste.

[Lily]

Bill wrote: "This is useful because the Kindle online software -- lets you cut and paste. " ..."

I don't have the Kindle software on my PC. That's why I posted the Online Literature link (from which it is easy to search, cut and paste), although Madge is right that the numbering is annoying.

[MadgeUK]

There are a number of those sites. Bartleby....

I realise that Rochelle but not all of them provide a search/cut/paste facility.

Unfortunately my Kindle does not offer that software, nor does my phone:(

[Bill]

Madge wrote, Unfortunately my Kindle does not offer that software, nor does my phone:(

It's the software of Kindle for the PC that's easily downloaded from Amazon. You can't copy from the Kindle itself or the cell phone version. But you can copy from the version for the PC and it brings a citation of the source.

I tried finding a link in Amazon.co.uk -- but I couldn't. This is the link for the US -- since it's a matter of downloading free software from Amazon that Amazon produces, they may let you do it even though it is the US site.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html...

Obviously, I can't test it myself not being in the UK. But if you do try, Madge, I'd be curious to know if you can or if for some bizarre reason you're blocked.

Because I don't use Goodreads except on the PC, I just go fetch what's necessary when I'm posting. I can find what I'm looking for just by putting a phrase, usually, in the search function.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "There are a number of those sites. Bartleby....

I realise that Rochelle but not all of them provide a search/cut/paste facility.

Unfortunately my Kindle does not offer that software, nor does my ..."

Didn't realize you were on the Kindle.

[Bill]

The Kindle program for the PC will not allow conventional cut and past. However, the program will allow you to highlight and then click on copy -- but not the conventional windows copy -- their own copy. It's more complicated but not very difficult.

[Linda2]

Actually I downloaded a plain un-Kindle copy, but found it impossible to read such length on my desktop PC. The longest I've ever done was Mrs Dalloway, and with great patience. So Kindlers have some advantages there.

[MadgeUK]

Didn't realize you were on the Kindle. <

My kids bought me one for Xmas 2010. I had an Ectaco before that. I'm more 'with it' than you think!:)

[Andreea]

Bill wrote: "Madge wrote, Unfortunately my Kindle does not offer that software, nor does my phone:(

It's the software of Kindle for the PC that's easily downloaded from Amazon. You can't copy from the Kind..."

The Amazon software works for UK Amazon users just fine. I usually use Mobipocked Ebook Creator to edit ebooks or convert text and PDF documents into Kindle ebooks, it's free and easy to use.

[Linda2]

MadgeUK wrote: "My kids bought me one for Xmas 2010. I had an Ectaco before that. I'm more 'with it' than you think!:)"

Even more than me, and I practically live on my computers!

[Lily]

Opening of Book 3 speaks of the Brunig. Here are some related links and images:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BC...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BC...

http://www.activityworkshop.net/hikin...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/9005106@...

[MadgeUK]

I've got a shot of it somewhere, but from a coach.

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "Opening of Book 3 speaks of the Brunig. Here are some related links and images:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BC...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BC...

http://www..."

Oh, Lily, How beautiful some of photos are!

Ah, Madge, What a lovely experience for you! Did you go in winter or in summer? (I saw photos from both seasons. Beautiful both ways.)

[MadgeUK]

I went in the Summer Adelle. It would have been much more spectacular in the winter but I think I would be too scared to enjoy it!: One thing that is better on a cach are the views because you have a much better panorama, especially in the modern coaches.

[[deleted user]]

MadgeUK wrote: "I went in the Summer Adelle. It would have been much more spectacular in the winter but I think I would be too scared to enjoy it!: One thing that is better on a cach are the views because you hav..."

Oh, I really liked the winter photos myself!

[[deleted user]]

From (basically) Henry James: The Mature Master, by Sheldon M. Novick

Regarding his writing, he’s writing for art. James wrote that the only thing that could justify art is “the effort to carry it as far as one can” (xix).

Like Madge wrote, I think he took an interest the psychology of people-- probably because of his brother James {“the father/founder of American psychology”}.
Sheldon: “William had begun to call his method ‘radical empiricism’….’realism’…..a view not unlike his brother’s. The world could be seen only through the human eyes, by an embodied consciousness; one looked out one’s own window” (335).

Henry James, Sheldon writes, had made himself familiar with the best of European culture…including “what he considered the distinctively English contribution to civilization, their social arrangements” (6). And that does seem to be a constant in James’s later books. And, I think, how people are willing to USE others (betrayal) in order to improve their own social position. The VERBAL message the James children received growing up was to not use other people. And yet…I think the parents did use their children. That has to mess you up a little.

He liked to consider his characters in their situations. Sheldon: “James accordingly assessed lives as if they were elements in a painting or a moral landscape, planted and pruned in harmony with the design of a park. Each life was, or should e, a noble specimen of its kind. To be beautiful, a life, like a story, should embody some moral principle, in harmony with the order of its surroundings” (49). He’s interested in the moral rights of the characters.

It seems that part of the reason that James’ style changed was because he could finally afford to change it. When his parents had died, he had signed over his share of the estate to his sister Alice, and that revenue didn’t return to him until she died in the 1890s. He didn’t have to write books that would be serialized first. (Actually, he wrote the first 5 chapters of WoD for serialization. You may notice the book does seem different after that point.)

Anyway….I want to go to WoD thread and write about Kate.

[Lily]

From Henry James: The Mature Master by Sheldon M. Novick, pp. 347-48:

"...His brother William's reaction was typical of many readers over the following century and of the reaction that many people would have to modernist styles in literature and painting:

"'I have read the Wings of the Dove (for which thanks!) But what shall I say.... You've reversed every traditional canon of story-telling (especially the fundamental one of telling the story) and have created a new genre litteraire which I can't help thinking perverse, but in which you succeed, for I read with interest to the end (many pages, and innumerable sentences twice over to see what the dickens they could possibly mean) and all with unflagging curiosity to know what the upshot might become...."In its way" the book is most beautiful--the queer thing is the way--I went fizzling about concerning it, and expressing my wonder all the while I was reading it.'"

[Laurel]

Lily wrote: "From Henry James: The Mature Master by Sheldon M. Novick, pp. 347-48:

"...His brother William's reaction was typical of many readers over the following century and of the reaction t..."

I think he liked it!

[Lily]

Also from Henry James: The Mature Master by Sheldon M. Novick, p. 343:

"James is delicate in his treatment of intimacy, of shared secrets, of passionate relations, of what he call the 'occult' (in the old sense of 'hidden') and 'sacred.' He speaks often of the 'sacred' inner life, as opposed to the 'profane' or public one, but he is reluctant to intrude too much into the realm of the sacred. His respect for his characters and their reality is such that we never see them undressed, never see their secrets except through a veil. (view spoiler)[We do not quite see Kate's embraces and are not told precisely what is her father's crime. (hide spoiler)] Yet we feel the palpable reality of the strong forces that are at work in the darkness, and we understand them as it were directly, immediately...."

[Lily]

One more from Henry James: The Mature Master by Sheldon M. Novick, p. 342, bold added:

"The opening chapters are an urban landscape, James's beloved London of lights and shadows. We see, as if from the windows of Croy's parlor, the immense, smoky landscape of London. Chirk Street and its working-class neighborhood: ragged figures gather in the streets. Indoors, Lionel Croy's ugly lodgings are a 'privacy,' a sadly complementary little world of meager social relations. In the innermost sphere, in Croy's parlor, Kate looks at her own image reflected in a tarnished mirror on the chimneypiece. She turns to this image, whose charm is produced by some inner force, as a refuge and partial escape from the meanness of her surroundings. It is a reminder of her constant innermost and secret realm of being. Her world is a set of nested spheres, from public to private; in the innermost sphere is her secret."

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "Also from Henry James: The Mature Master by Sheldon M. Novick, p. 343:

"James is delicate in his treatment of intimacy, of shared secrets, of passionate relations, of what he call the 'occult' (in..."

Lily, thank you for finding that quote. It does explain his use of that word, occult.

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Lily, thank you for finding that quote. It does explain his use of that word, occult...."
Thx, Adelle, I had not guessed "hidden" for "occult" and had not bothered to look-up a word I thought I understood.

[MadgeUK]

It would seem that Sheldon was a fan:).

A mirror in literature is always significant. James is standing on the shoulders of giants again.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror#M...

[[deleted user]]

Lily, when I read the book before I didn't give any consideration as to any of the characters being gay. Then it came up in this discussion. Then I begin to wonder. Then I googled "Susan Stringham gay" and "gay characters in Wings of the Dove."

There are a few articles there to read, but I found this one interesting to browse. James, of course, may or may not have intend to nuance a character or two with traits that might have been gay. So much of what he writes is "impressions" which are naturally open to individual interpretation.

And look! Individuals have interpretted.

http://books.google.com/books?id=uDLX...

[MadgeUK]

Because Henry James himself was thought to be a closet homosexual it has long been speculated that some of his characters were too or that he looked at them with homosexual-tinted eyes. So the Boston Marriage idea about Kate, or Helen or Susan is part of that speculation, as is the speculation that Kate's father and other males may have been homo or bisexual. We will never know but speculation is always fun.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "A mirror in literature is always significant. James is standing on the shoulders of giants again.... "

Newton said the same of himself in his letter to Robert Hooke: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." 1676

For earlier attributes of that expression, here is one place to start.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/ind...

From your post @87, Madge, I enjoyed particularly the literary allusions for mirrors. The list certainly captured several very famous ones and the figures of speech or reflections intimated by mirrors.

[MadgeUK]

The renowned British physicist Stephen Hawking paid tribute to seven great scientists in his book On the Shoulders of Giants. It is a well worn phrase which is just as applicable to literature as it is to science.

[Lily]

MadgeUK wrote: "The renowned British physicist Stephen Hawking paid tribute to seven great scientists in his book On the Shoulders of Giants. It is a well worn phrase which is just as applicable to literature as i..."

Some truisms are true.

Also, some of those are broadly applicable.

[Bill]

I haven't read it, but I remember when it came out.

Check it out;



On the Shoulders of Giants

The Goodreads link adds: The Post-Italianate Edition. The Amazon book says A Shandean (as in Tristrim Shandy) postscript.

From Goodreads:

With playfulness and a large dose of wit, Robert Merton traces the origin of Newton's aphorism, "If I have seen farther, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Using as a model the discursive and digressive style of Sterne's Tristram Shandy, Merton presents a whimsical yet scholarly work which deals with the questions of creativity, tradition, plagiarism, the transmission of knowledge, and the concept of progress."This book is the delightful apotheosis of donmanship: Merton parodies scholarliness while being faultlessly scholarly; he scourges pedantry while brandishing his own abstruse learning on every page. The most recondite and obscure scholarly squabbles are transmuted into the material of comedy as the ostensible subject is shouldered to one side by yet another hobby horse from Merton's densely populated stable.

Okay, friends. I'm off on a journey to Cape Cod to attend a marriage. And then my taxes.

Back on the boards in roughly a week.

[Lily]

Let's see if I can put together some useful links on Bronzino, the painter of the portrait likened to Milly.

Lucrezia Panciatichi
http://www.wga.hu/index1.html Use search tab, drop down list for Bronzino, Angolo. This painting probably will be on the third page.

Bill, this is probably the closest I can come to what Henry James meant by "high dim charming ambiguous oddity." (Book 3, Chapter 1) The word "dim" is one James uses frequently, but I am getting less and less certain what meaning he may apply to it. Time for a dictionary check, I guess.

Good article on the painter and the a bit on the painting, with references to WotD text:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/200...

NYT on an exhibition of drawings at the Met in 2010:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/art...

[Lily]

Warning: the link below may be considered to contain SPOILER information by readers who have not completed WotD.

This critique can be rather rambling and disconnected, particularly with its many references to other James works. However, I found myself especially interested in the parallels with Milton's Paradise Loss and the with the development of its ideas around the title of "Fetishism."


June 22, 2005
Fetishism in "The Wings of the Dove" by Joseph S. O'Leary
http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_w...

[Lily]

This is too good not to quote:

"As Scheherezade of the Arabian Nights discovered long ago, desire defers death by substituting dissatisfaction in its place."

From this "Metaphor, Hysteria and the Ethics of Desire in The Wings of the Dove" by Sigi Jöttkandt, SUNY Buffalo, International Henry James Conference, Paris, 2002

A fascinating defense of Kate. Not sure I follow all the reasoning here, still....

(SPOILER ALERT)
http://mockingbird.creighton.edu/engl...

[[deleted user]]

Lily wrote: "This is too good not to quote:

"As Scheherezade of the Arabian Nights discovered long ago, desire defers death by substituting dissatisfaction in its place."

From this "Metaphor, Hysteria and th..."

Lily, i read the first two sentences. I will read it when we finish the book. I ALREADY like Kate best of all the characters. I don't want to be influenced. Looks great though. Thank you.

[Lily]

Adelle wrote: "Lily, I read the first two sentences. I will read it when we finish the book. I ALREADY like Kate best of all the characters. I don't want to be influenced. Looks great though. Thank you."

Good! That's why I included the spoiler alert line. I'll be interested in your comments, Adelle, when the time comes. (I'm not certain yet I agree with the article. We'll see.)

[Laurel]

I have not been commenting much because I am listening to the book and have been confused more than once as to where everyone is. Here is something that keeps coming to me, though: In Bible times, people who were not wealthy enough to afford an ox or a lamb were allowed to sacrifice doves. Is our dove being readied for the sacrifice? Here are some other references to doves in Scripture: http://concordances.org/d/doves.htm

[MadgeUK]

I like the Paradise Lost references to Kate as Satan and that ties up with Matthew 10:16 'I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.' Milly and Susan (maybe Densher) are the sheep.

I saw Kate from the outset as an evil, duplicitous character. No matter how poor her relatives were, to stoop to deceiving a sick woman is despicable. Densher goes along with her plan until he is redeemed by his burgeoning love for Milly but Kate remains committed to it and lets her desire drive her to other depravities, such as 'losing' Milly at the festival and enticing Densher to make love to her. She is her father's daughter.