Discovering Russian Literature discussion
Group Reads Archive - 2012
>
Crime and Punishment: Part I - Feb. 10-17
date
newest »
newest »
This thread is silent. Can someone start a topic?
I've read C&P twice now, and what I find so absolutely compelling is D's examination of obsession. The novel is so very claustrophobic in this obsession--Raskolnikov's neurotic mind; the stifling, awful little "kennel" where he lives; his insistent, incessant thought processes; the rationalization that brings about the demented act. . .
MountainShelby wrote: "I've read C&P twice now, and what I find so absolutely compelling is D's examination of obsession. The novel is so very claustrophobic in this obsession--Raskolnikov's neurotic mind; the stifling,..."Yes. He reminds me of the character from Notes From Underground. Are all D's main characters so "preoccupied"? It's hard to believe that D preceded Freud.
One of the reasons I love D. is for his understanding of human psychology (before we had Freud and Xanax). I actually think he has a better understanding of the underbelly of humanity than Shakespeare (don't throw vegetables, or do . . . I stand by this opinion). I love Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, Richard III . . . but I just don't think anyone delves into the darkness like D. Of course, the medium is different, and I recognize that . .
Kathleen wrote: "MountainShelby wrote: Yes. He reminds me of the character from Notes From Underground. Are all D's main characters so "preoccupied"? It's hard to believe that D receded Freud. "Yes pretty much most of his characters are well neurotic is what I like to call them. Part of it is related to the fact that Dostoyevsky himself suffered from epilepsy , and his illness played a strong influence upon his philosophy and outlook upon the world and life. I think many of his characters embody aspects of his illness and his struggles and sufferings in different ways. I recall in the Brothers Karamazov there was a character who was subject to having frequent seizures. So illness often both mental and physical play a major and important roll in his writing, and within his characters.
Murderous, neurotic, suicidal, depressed, angry, obsessed, manic, violent, conniving, rash . . . yummy yummy yummy.I do not want to sound too pop culture here, but why C&P hasn't been made into a recent Hollywood film showcasing great acting is beyond me. Also I love noting the claustrophobic sense of this book--the squalid pawn dealer's apartment, the St Petersburg streets, and that awful "kennel" R. lives in.
From Wikipedia: Dostoyevsky conceived the idea of Crime and Punishment in the summer of 1865, having gambled away much of his fortune, unable to pay his bills or afford proper meals. At the time the author owed large sums of money to creditors, and was trying to help the family of his brother Mikhail, who had died in early 1864. Projected under the title The Drunkards, it was to deal "with the present question of drunkness ... [in] all its ramifications, especially the picture of a family and the bringing up of children in these circumstance, etc., etc." Once Dostoyevsky conceived Raskolnikov and his crime, now inspired by the case of Pierre François Lacenaire, this theme became ancillary, centering on the story of the Marmeladov family.[3]Dostoyevsky offered his story or novella (at the time Dostoyevsky was not thinking of a novel[4]) to the publisher Mikhail Katkov, whose monthly journal, The Russian Messenger, was a prestigious publication of its kind, and the outlet for both Ivan Turgenev and Leo Tolstoy. However, Dostoyevsky, having carried on quite bruising polemics with Katkov in early 1860s, had never published anything in its pages. Nonetheless, forced by his situation, after all other appeals elsewhere failed, Dostoyevsky turned as a last resort to Katkov, urging for an advance on a proposed contribution.[5] In a letter to Katkov written in September 1865, Dostoyevsky explained to him that the work was to be about a young man who yields to "certain strange, 'unfinished' ideas, yet floating in the air";[6] he had thus embarked on his plan to explore the moral and psychological dangers of the ideology of "radicalism".[7] In letters written in November 1865 an important conceptual change occurred: the "story" has become a "novel", and from here on all references to Crime and Punishment are to a novel.[8]
Dostoyevsky had to race against time, in order to finish on time both The Gambler and Crime and Punishment. Anna Snitkina, a stenographer who would soon become his second wife, was a great help for Dostoyevsky during this difficult task.[9] The first part of Crime and Punishment appeared in the January 1866 issue of The Russian Messenger, and the last one was published in December 1866.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_an...
MountainShelby wrote: "One of the reasons I love D. is for his understanding of human psychology (before we had Freud and Xanax). I actually think he has a better understanding of the underbelly of humanity than Shakespe..."
Yes he does. I think he was able to do so because he himself suffered from several aliments not just from epilepsy. There's a theory that D suffered from Bipolar and his manic and depressive episodes aided in his ability to properly illustrate the workings of the human mind, through his writing.
Here the rest from that article:
But in an it seems he was obviously very aware of his Manic-depressive disorder, He repeatedly points out that he is "overly conscious", and that it is his sickness and a real sickness. Like some manic-depressives-those being few in number, he was somehow able to predict his mood changes and was able to make use of them accordingly.
Dostoevsky refers to himself a "normal" human being -- one who is not overly conscious, as an insect. There should be no shock that one would think so lowly of himself. Behind the mask of "the Underground Man", he examines his emotional stamina, referring to himself as an insect, or a low species of the living . According to Dostoevsky, not thinking and not being conscious, both internally and externally, is a luxury. In "Notes From Underground", Dostoevsky takes on a guided tour of the functions of the mind. Debilitating psychological illnesses can be held accountable for one compulsively questioning, and burdening themselves with existential thoughts. Dostoevsky's Manic-depression gave him, ironically, this ability.
And regarding the publication, he wrote to Katkov this:
"The idea of the novel cannot, as far as I can see, contradict the tenor of your journal; in fact, the very opposite is true. The novel is a psycho- logical account of a crime. A young man of middle-class origin who is living in dire need is expelled from the university. From superficial and weak thinking, having been influenced by certain "unfinished" ideas in the air, he decides to get himself out of a difficult situation quickly..."
If he indeed suffered from bipolar, he must have been a man with great strength to talk of these but, well, I don't think where were any suicidal attempts in his life at least not any we know of.
Yes he does. I think he was able to do so because he himself suffered from several aliments not just from epilepsy. There's a theory that D suffered from Bipolar and his manic and depressive episodes aided in his ability to properly illustrate the workings of the human mind, through his writing.
Here the rest from that article:
But in an it seems he was obviously very aware of his Manic-depressive disorder, He repeatedly points out that he is "overly conscious", and that it is his sickness and a real sickness. Like some manic-depressives-those being few in number, he was somehow able to predict his mood changes and was able to make use of them accordingly.
Dostoevsky refers to himself a "normal" human being -- one who is not overly conscious, as an insect. There should be no shock that one would think so lowly of himself. Behind the mask of "the Underground Man", he examines his emotional stamina, referring to himself as an insect, or a low species of the living . According to Dostoevsky, not thinking and not being conscious, both internally and externally, is a luxury. In "Notes From Underground", Dostoevsky takes on a guided tour of the functions of the mind. Debilitating psychological illnesses can be held accountable for one compulsively questioning, and burdening themselves with existential thoughts. Dostoevsky's Manic-depression gave him, ironically, this ability.
And regarding the publication, he wrote to Katkov this:
"The idea of the novel cannot, as far as I can see, contradict the tenor of your journal; in fact, the very opposite is true. The novel is a psycho- logical account of a crime. A young man of middle-class origin who is living in dire need is expelled from the university. From superficial and weak thinking, having been influenced by certain "unfinished" ideas in the air, he decides to get himself out of a difficult situation quickly..."
If he indeed suffered from bipolar, he must have been a man with great strength to talk of these but, well, I don't think where were any suicidal attempts in his life at least not any we know of.
Mod
I'm reading for the first time and here's what I found interesting:
Bipolar idea goes well with Raskolnikov character. But I don't think we can really say what's his suffering from. He has fits of depression, hypomania, and other forms of ill-health, and is crushed both by poverty. He irritable and tense can't make up his mind like Hamlet. He can at least try to make a living by giving lessons. Everything surrounding him is overwhelming to him, he cannot/would not settle for less paid job instead he puts more pressure on Dunya. Or is it merely his pride? He doesn't want to do a less-paid job?
I love Tolstoy but now I'm beginning to love Dostoevsky more. He is more understanding towards women :) I love the symbolism he uses " how women are used for the survival of men." Like the mare in Raskolnikov's Dream, Sonya and Dunya...
Then the other thing is , I'm not sure about "Crimes" (until chapter 7) so far but there are plenty of Punishments. Specially for the female characters.
Dunya first sacrifices her salary for Raskolnikov and then she technically "sells" herself to Luzhin for the sake of her brother. Sonya's prostitution, through her suffering she keeps her family clothed and fed, what her father doesn't do.
Then the drunken young girl is chapter 4, my God, I didn't realize earlier, has she been made drunk and then gang raped? So she doesn't have a "crime" but will be punished and end up being a prostitute?
"She will come to herself and weep, and then her mother will find out.. . She will give her a beating, a horrible, shameful beating and then maybe, turn her out of doors. . . "
Then Marmeladov's speeches are all nonsense. He talks about crucifixion but it's really his daughter who suffers real crucifixion.
Final Chapter is complete horror!
What's been a challenge for me is while my tendency is to read D purely through a psychological filter, he is also overtly political. And of course with rare exception, that's a challenge for many American/US readers who know next to nothing about 19th century Russian politics. I do rely on Franks for background information and political context, but I recognize there are other sources.
Amalie wrote: "I really want to read this but there a professional exam coming in April and with school work, I don't know. And to make it worse the weather is bad And I'm having crippling migraines. But I'll be ..."The book was originally going to be titled The Drunkards and the focus would have been on the Marmeladov family. Then at some point D. shifted to Raskolnikov--if I recall his behavior is based on an actual incident. D was writing The Gambler under pressure for $$$ at the same time as C&P, much of which he dictated. Then there are burned manuscripts, re-starts, etc. What a desperate and yet amazing feat.
Amalie wrote: "Like the mare in Raskolnikov's Dream, Sonya and Dunya..."
You read deeply Amalie :) I don't easily see these unless someone points out. True. But for the dream, I thought something like this. The dream disturbs him, right? He panics and all, so I thought Raskolnikov's true motivation for the murder is rooted in his unhappy childhood.
You read deeply Amalie :) I don't easily see these unless someone points out. True. But for the dream, I thought something like this. The dream disturbs him, right? He panics and all, so I thought Raskolnikov's true motivation for the murder is rooted in his unhappy childhood.
CHAPTER I
CHAPTER II
CHAPTER III
CHAPTER IV
CHAPTER V
CHAPTER VI
CHAPTER VII