The Name of the Rose - Spoilers

[Cynda]

Wobbley background information is always helpful. Something accessible and that is available on Kindle Unlimited: God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World by Cullen Murphy tells readers about the nature of inquisition. It is worth reading to get a window into what this inquisition is trying to do. They are not trying to do evil. They just do not have all the tools and the skills and understanding we do. It is a short read.

[Cynda]

I will be reading The Name of the Rose like a project, so at least two months I will take for this reread.

* I have read God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World described above.

* I will reread The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by Stephen Greenblatt which one directly but very well does describe the nature of a medieval monastic library. Not as important as as reading God's Jury, but if this is the book you have access to, it will help in knowing how important a library was and why it would be protected.

Both books are accessible.

[Wobbley]

Thank you for this, Cynda. I'm not a big non-fiction reader, but I'm sure these resources will help anyone who is looking to delve more deeply into this book. :)

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

It is more than a tad interesting , to me, that this thread , while never that active, abides.

IMHO this speaks to the high quality of this book. Many posts are from those either defeated by it, or for whom it lacks a personal appeal. This is the irrefutable right of a reader to make choices based on their tastes/interests and what ever fails to rock their boat.

I took to this book each of the several times I have read it. I did not know the Latin, but could guess much from the context. There are at least two good books that annotate much of the history and all of the Latin. This is extra work for a reader who wants a simple murder mystery and not home work.

The Name of the Rose is very intentionally not just a murder mystery.

My initial take, and I still see some sense to it:
Professor Emberto Ecco was a "an Italian medievalist, philosopher, semiotician, novelist, cultural critic, and political and social commentator."

That is he was a professor and one operating at a very high level of esoteric analysis. Yes, he expected readers to think and to know some things upon arrival. Again, not something people generally associate with a Who Dunit. This suggested to me that he was placing a lot of his lecture material into a popular novel form in the hopes that some students would pay attention to the book and learn things they may have ignored in his lectures.

As for the readers who get the vapors over the sex scene, please leave the room and as quietly as possible. The larger point is that this kind of thing was not mere tittle tattle as it might be in a modern world novel, but a matter of life and death for those involved. In other words as much as you may want to stamp your foot and swear distaste that the flesh should so intrude; this is a pivotal scene, and very much a reminder of how this world operated.


Is it anti religion or anti Catholic. I lack the experience to argue either point. Mostly Ecco is telling us actual history. the violence that poured so much blood across many centuries of the Catholic Church is not only hard for a modern reader to appreciate, but lack of this knowledge may be part of why there is in the US, so much pressure to place religious intolerance into what has been a mostly areligious modern America.

It was a military General of the Catholic Church that gave us, "Kill them all and God will know his own." This was the orders of a commanding general to end what had been a violent siege of a large town to kill the innocent along with the guilty. This was about 200-300 years before the time period of the Rose. The Inquisition-which friar William of Baskerville had been a member, beggered, bled and tortured people from Eastern Europe into the Americas over a very long period.

The facts are what they are. The history is what it is. Telling them is not the same as rendering judgement,

[Connie]

Wobbley wrote: "Okay, I'm 100 pages into this (just over one fifth done). For me, it's been kind of a slog. His descriptive diversions are so slow and frequent -- he actually spent 6 pages describing a statue. And..."

"he spent 6 pages describing a statue" :-)

I believe this is exactly how I felt 15 years ago when I read Eco for the first time. His style is not for everyone, especially if you're busy and can't dedicate the serious effort required to follow his intricate narratives. Eco’s books are far from light reads, and his writing often resembles a "beautiful delirium," (as he called his own writing in Numero Zero) with its dense intellectual references, philosophical explorations, and imaginative storytelling. It can certainly feel very overwhelming.

Back then, I managed to finish The Name of the Rose and decided to read Foucault’s Pendulum next. And let me tell you, The Name of the Rose felt like a picnic compared to Foucault’s Pendulum. I vividly remember pages filled entirely with lists of names (!!). At times, I wasn’t sure if I was reading a murder mystery or an encyclopedia. I think I completely spaced out during certain chapters and felt almost hypnotized by the sheer weight of it.

That said, when I finished the books, I found myself reflecting on numerous elements I really appreciated—phrases and plot points that have stayed with me to this day and remain vivid in my memory. However, I wouldn’t say I enjoyed reading them, particularly the dense intellectual analyses where my background knowledge fell short. I don’t think such books are necessarily enjoyable while reading them. The real reward, in my experience, comes afterward—discussing them with friends and revisiting specific parts in your mind. That said, the murder scenes are truly masterful and a pleasure to read. However, these take up only a small part of the book...

With all this in mind, I’m looking forward to revisiting The Name of the Rose this month for the discussion. I’m older now, and perhaps it will feel easier—or maybe not. Time is precious, so if I find I’m not gaining deeper insights this time, I’ll quit and switch to lighter reads.

[Cynda]

Secondary works when reading works unfamiliar to the reader are essential or next to essential. Having read a book that in part described the nature of medieval monastic libraries, I now read a book about the nature of inquisitions, both secular and religious, always remembering that there was no division or unclear division between church and state until at least the Early Modern Period.

God's Jury: The Inquisition and the Making of the Modern World by Cullen Murphy is available on Kindlen Unlimited, is easy to read, will make a difference in ease of reading.

It is not important to understand everything, every meaning and nuance. It is possible and expected that a reader will have an understanding, not the definitive read. Remember scholars study and discuss for years. We are mere readers.

[Wobbley]

Connie wrote: ""he spent 6 pages describing a statue" :-)

I believe this is exactly how I felt 15 years ago when I read Eco for the first time."

This is helpful, Connie. I'm glad at least that there weren't entire pages that were simply lists of names. :) I still think I'm not going to continue with the book. It doesn't seem to be right for me at the moment.

[Connie]

What I love most about this group is the variety of books we get to explore each month. There’s something for everyone, and it’s almost guaranteed you’ll find something you enjoy. Sometimes, I look at the chosen books and think, "Oh no, not this one." But then I stumble across another book or even a short story read that leaves me thinking, "Wow, this was amazing! How have I never read this before?"

Thank you, Cynda! I’ll definitely check out the book you recommended.

[Ian]

The “Kill them all, for God will know His own” command is usually associated with the Albigensian Crusade (see Wikipedia), in the early 1200s, and if true may have reflected French territorial ambitions in Languedoc as much as religious fervor/bigotry.

I first read this in about 1984 (the translation had just appeared in paperback), years after my last Latin course, and my rough translations were pretty similar to what was implied or explained in later expositions or narrative. I don’t think that the Latinless reader will lose much.

The toughest aspects of trying to translate, often on the fly, were that it was medieval ecclesiastical Latin, and that some of it was bad Latin. The latter proves important (and is explicated). The former would be easier to handle today, with major resources on Medieval Latin available on the Web.

[Ian]

Of anyone is interested in the Medieval Latin resources I alluded to, I will dig them up and post the websites.

For anyone interested in the real-life heresies discussed in the book, there is a handy (but very large) source-book of medieval texts in trranslation, Heresies of the High Middle Ages (edited Wakefield and Evans). I reviewed it on Amazon over twenty years ago, and won't second-guess myself at this late date: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-re...

Wherever possible it includes the statements of the "heretics" themselves, not just the inquisitorial descriptions that most historians have perforce relied on.

(I no longer have a copy, and I am debating getting it used: but these days I probably wouldn't make much use of it.)

[Lynn, New School Classics]

I always read the non-spoiler thread, but never the spoiler until I am finished. So if I am repetitive here please forgive. When I finish I will comment on other posts.

These are first thoughts:
I am already blown away by Chapter 1. This seems to be a really sharp critique of the Modern Catholic Church veiled in an imaginary historical setting. When I say Modern realize that "Modernism" is condemned as a heresy by the church. It has a technical meaning.

Anyway - wow what a slam!! It says the impious people revered Pope XXII and may that name never again be used. - but it was! Pope John XXIII was the Pope that called Vatican II and instituted reforms which changed the face of the faith.

Also the entire paragraph about Marys not being contemplative, Marthas not being diligent in work, etc, etc. was masterful.

Finally, he goes on to "predict" the modern machines that we all know today. This book from 1980 is definitely a commentary about modern changes and ideologies. Not sure yet if the author is pro or con these changes, because William is almost a 60's hippie with his herb use.

I also really appreciated the line about how the Franciscans used their doctrine of holy poverty as a political weapon. (The current Pope chose Francis as well. He has written quite a bit about economics.)

Another connection with Franciscans, Vatican II, and hippies is an influential bio pic movie about Saint Francis. (DIrected by an Italian.) It glorified the hippie lifestyle of the 60's while set in the lifetime of Saint Francis (medieval). This book may almost be the same, I just don't know if the author is pro hippie or critical of the hippies, yet.

https://stephaniegould.com/2013/03/14...

1978 was an important year because Pope John Paul II the Great, as many call him was established Pope. He is considered conservative and was seen to roll back many of the excesses that came out of the Vatican II (1962 - 1964) changes to the church. So this book written in 1980 - pro Vatican II or not? Warning about Pope John Paul II or applauding?

[Lynn, New School Classics]

Bob wrote: "I can offer nothing positive, except I'm glad it's over."

LOL Bob I love your reviews. I may like the book more than you did, but I love how plain spoken you are.

[Cynda]

Thanks Lynn. Yeah, thanks for all this information that I have forgotten--lived through and forgot. While I am not sure that I can incorporate that information into my comments or review, I will be considering what.you said. It's in the brain. Connections will someday be made and pop out my mouth 😄

[Cynda]

I have started my reread. I am more confident now that I have read a book about medieval libraries and about inquisition. Next time I reread, I would like to find an accessible history about the time of the two popes--one in Rome and one in Avignon. The political backstory seems important here.

[Kirill]

I finished this in a matter of days (it helped that I listened to an audiobook + had Wikipedia at my beck and call whenever it alluded to historical figures and events that I scarcely knew about). Really great book in total -- equal parts murder mystery and musings on medieval history

The murder mystery at the core is really quite simple, but what makes it for me are the discussions on medieval religious history -- the debates on apostolic poverty and heresy and the tense standoff between William and Jorge in the end where they both hated each others' guts but were puffing each other up simultaneously lmao. The debate at the end was quite a sight to behold too -- Jorge obviously being an arbiter of the old guard (preserving the library's secrets and not allowing the "simple" and the "base" to set foot) while William is obviously much more of a rationalist. He even sympathizes with the Spirituals and the otherwise "heretical" orders (mostly consisting of rather "simple" folk rebelling against the religious orders)

I definitely would like to read something about medieval religious history in the future and do a re-read (this time with less Wiki-ing hopefully)

[Bobbie]

I just finished this yesterday and then read on the Introduction. I found much medieval information but some just too much to grasp. I had to look up many words and the heretical groups which I still cannot remember very well. I did enjoy the book but would probably like to read this again someday but at my age I don't think that will ever happen. I am sure that this was the book that my husband read years ago and raved about. So, now that he is gone, I was glad for the chance to read it.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

Is it the end of the month already?? My goodness. This conversation thread will remain open. If you are like me and still not to the end of the book feel free to continue to comment.

[Connie]

What an amazing book! I read it for the second time after 15 years because it was one of the book club picks, and this second read was even more rewarding and exciting. It probably helped that this time I read it in English rather than Greek. I also read God’s Jury simultaneously (recommended by someone here in the thread) to get more background on the Inquisition.

Did I understand every detail and Latin phrase? No. Did I appreciate the writing and the medieval history woven into the story? Absolutely! Somehow, the ending left me feeling calm and fulfilled, even more eager to revisit other works by Eco for the second time.

10/10— I highly recommend!

[Cynda]

I enjoyed my reread. It is a strange complex book that I am beginning to understand well enough to say done--but quite yet. Before I reread again, I will want to know something about Roger Bacon and Boethius. I am getting it more and more. Bit of course there is no real focus to the story.

As William says:

I behaved stubbornly, pursuing a semblance of order, when I should have known well that there is no order in the universe.

Sometimes there is. And sometimes

[Kay]

I'm coming late to the discussion party on this book. Hello everyone! I joined this group several years ago but haven't had time to read with y'all for awhile. The Name of the Rose has been on my reread list for quite a while. I love medieval mysteries! Finished the book a few days ago - hard slogging in some parts and great fun in others. It has given me much to think about and my thoughts are still quite scattered.
I think the main theme of the book is revealed in that last, weighty discussion between Jorge and William. I think it has to do with a great difference of opinion about the nature of God and the nature of man. Jorge sees God as a stern, unforgiving Judge and people as simple-minded creatures easily led astray from the truth of God. He thinks that people should be given only pieces of information that will motivate them to live good lives that will then get them to heaven. Those pieces of information are all about fear - do right because God is severe and will punish you with hell if you don't. That kind of thing. That's why Jorge is against comedy and frivolity, because he thinks such will cause people to stop being good.

William, on the other hand, sees a God who laughs and loves life. He wants all people to have access to all knowledge and philosophy and thinking and to make up their own minds about life and death and God and man. William allows doubt to enter his faith and I don't think he ever comes to solid conclusions about it.

There is so much more I'd like to say and discuss but I have to run now. More later! I am fully aware that, 12 days past the "due date" means I might be discussing this book with myself! But I'd truly love to hear from others of you.
Kay

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

Kay, so glad to see you enjoying the book. Past due, but the thread is still open and you have a good chance of people joining in your discussion.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

I am still reading this book. I am pondering how reliable William is as a character. Many of us have mentioned his use of herbs. From the beginning of the book it is established he chew leaves of a plant found on the the side of the road and often lays down quietly for hours at a time. There are three ways to interpret this:

1. He is chewing a hallucinogen and tripping. I went on a search of medicinal plants in Europe. There were a few that stood out. Mandrake is a root so it is out. Henbane would have been the most common and readily available. Yet, the leaves are hairy and the typical way to use henbane is to make a tea from the leaves. It was used to relieve pain and also as a hallucinagenic.

2. Other common plants used were Hawthorne or Foxglove

https://www.ahpa.org/herbs_in_history...

https://hort.extension.wisc.edu/artic....

3. Perhaps he does some combination of medicinal and recreational use.

My personal interpretation of it being Hawthorne or Foxglove comes from my own experience with high blood pressure and my grandfather's experience with angina and heart disease. I remember my "Pawpaw" needing to sit with his eyes closed in a chair in a quiet room when he had an angina attack. He had digitalis pills he kept in his pocket for those painful attacks. Foxglove is the source of digitalis.

I have high blood pressure. At the end of difficult days at school I would get dizzy spells and ringing in my ears. I often had to sit at my desk for an hour or two quietly doing nothing before I felt fit to drive home. My last year at school my high blood pressure medicine was adjusted but still was not working well. I never had chest pains. So perhaps William was treating high blood pressure with Hawthorn. (Retirement has done wonders for my high blood pressure, lol.)

So perhaps William was a stoned out druggie, or perhaps he was carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders and medicating himself according to the normal medical knowledge of the time.

[Lynn, New School Classics]

For the second time in 2025 I am having trouble due to translation issues. I am reading the translation by William Weaver and also listening to audible. Entire paragraphs will sometimes be left out of the print version. I thought my version was 566 pages long, but at this rate I may never actually reach the end of the book. It seems to grow longer the more I read.

[Kay]

Keep going, Lynn! I found that the best part - the philosophy and things to think about - were near the end. The version I read was paperback with 538 pages.

[Cynda]

Lynn, it has been important to me to just listen to the audiobook, absorbing what I can about the historical aspects and enjoying that information--scoring myself a point for each concept I understand. This book is complex, worlds within worlds. I have read secondary works on medieval books, on development of books from scrolls to codexes to books, on medieval monastic libraries, on inquisition, and and on power struggle between cities and church. Sometimes I have read these books intentionally and sometimes as participation at nonfiction groups. I want to come back after I read a book on the split within the Roman Catholic Church.

[Marcus]

I also had difficulties reading this book. I can say, though, that it’s worth reading and very enlightening.

[Kay]

Cynda wrote: ".This book is complex, worlds within worlds.."
Yes! The story and dialogue seem to be rather like a labyrinth!

[Lynn, New School Classics]

So I am still not finished, but also am still reading. This happens every so often with me. I will spend months on just one book and all other reading stops. The next book tends to be something light that I can race through easily.

[Marcus]

When this happens to me, I often begin another readings. And there I go on multiple readings at the same time…

[Lynn, New School Classics]

Marcus wrote: "When this happens to me, I often begin another readings. And there I go on multiple readings at the same time…"

To be honest, I have been reading quite a bit for the last two months, but it has been daily news items. I think that flurry of news may be slowing. But thank you. Just looking at how I slowed down has prompted me to put some effort into finishing The Name of the Rose. I may pick up a few more short stories along the way.