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Nicholas Nickleby: Week 04 - Chapters 16-20
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Zulfiya
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Jan 29, 2012 08:00PM
The discussion is now open for the fourth part of the book. Please post your thoughts below.
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This part shows again and again that Dickens has an insight into the world of the most enigmatic creatures on earth - women. In this section we deal with the 'trials and tribulations' of Madame. Mantalini and Miss. Knag. We stay with Kate though her haunting ordeal of the party. The characters of Miss La Creevy and Mrs. Nickleby are becoming more and more tangible.
As far as I am concerned, I can hardly hide the feeling of irritation every time I read about Mrs. Nickleby. She has her heart in the right place, but her obsequiousness towards Ralph is truly irritating.
Miss La Creevy is a beautiful example of a bird-woman: small, independent, hard-working, devoted, and with the most poignant and sarcastic mind.
Thus terminating the interview, during which both ladies had trembled very much, and been marvellously polite--certain indications that they were within an inch of a very desperate quarrel--Miss La Creevy bounced out of the room, and into the street.
'I wonder who that is,' said the queer little soul. 'A nice person to know, I should think! I wish I had the painting of her: I'd do her justice.' So, feeling quite satisfied that she had said a very cutting thing at Miss Knag's expense, Miss La Creevy had a hearty laugh, and went home to breakfast in great good humour.
One more example
'Then all I have to say about that is,' interposed Miss La Creevy,'that I don't envy you your taste; and that sitting in the same room with his very boots, could put me out of humour for a fortnight.'
Dickens also masterfully gives a bold example of the most widespread human sin - vanity. Madame Mantalini and Miss Knag (who is truly a nagging character) cherish their dreams and hopes of vanity and conceit in their small circle.
Last but definitely not least. Ralph is the character who triggers the most ambiguous feelings. On the one hand, he uses his beautiful niece as a ploy at the party where other birds of prey are invited to strike deals and bargains to establish himself as a businessman, and is aptly described as a person who ... would sell [his] flesh and blood for money; yourself, if you
have not already made a bargain with the devil.
On the other hand, he is still haunted by the image of his late brother, which he sees when he looks into Kate's face, and it might still indicate that he could have a slight potential to redeem himself in the future.
Please share your thoughts and opinions. Favorite lines and quotations will be very much appreciated.
Happy reading and discussion.
P.S. Mary, do you think you can post some other wonderful illustrations from the edition you are reading?
Zulfiya wrote: "This part shows again and again that Dickens has an insight into the world of the most enigmatic creatures on earth - women. In this section we deal with the 'trials and tribulations' of Madame. ..."
Not only does Dickens give us memorable insight into women, he gives us family insight as well. I enjoyed meeting the Kenwigs, and Mr. Lillyvick and Miss Petowker. And Newman Noggs proves himself to be of aid and on Nicholas' side (and Smike's) when he takes them in and get Nicholas the job of teaching the Kenwigs children French. Mr. & Mrs. Kenwigs pride in their children and their anxiety over getting Mr. Lillyvick to leave the children something in his will are studies in the human capacity for pride and vanity and people's ability to blind themselves to realities.
But poor Miss Knag! "Of all the things in the world, Madame Mantalini," said the lord's intended, throwing herself languidly on a sofa, "I hate being waited upon by frights or elderly persons. Let me always see that young creature, I beg, whenever I come." No wonder her feelings are hurt, but then she takes it out on Kate.
And finally, some more of those great Dickens names: Lord Frederick Verisopht, Sir Mulberry Hawk, Mr. Pyke and Mr. Pluck, the Honorable Mr. Snobb, and Colonel Chowser. You can practically see their countenances in the names that Dickens has bestowed upon them!
I will post some more pictures soon, Zulfiya. Did you see the one I put up of Nicholas beating Wackford Squeers?
Thank you for your wonderful post on speaking names. I was going to mention it when I was reading the chapters, but then my mind went blank.:-) It is a very effective tool of characterization, and Dickens truly excels at it. Well, I believe he surpasses any writer, dead or alive, in this domain.
Mod
"The meaning of that term- gammon- is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid. . in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I am proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory."
His constituents are unhappy that he hasn't carried out his promises, chief of which was "to oppose everything proposed; to divide the house upon every question, to move for returns on every subject, to place a motion on the books every day, and in short, in your own memorable words, to play the very devil with everything and everybody". This seems to be the intent of a lot of our current representatives.
And elected leaders still need "cramming" to make it seem they understand the issues.
Also there's the issue of copyright, which Dickens must have had an opinion on:
"For instance if any preposterous bill were brought forward, for giving poor grubbing devils of authors a right to their own property, I should like to say, that I for one would never consent to opposing an insurmountable bar to the diffusion of literature among the people - that the creations of the pocket, being man's, might belong to one man, or one family; but that the creation of the brain, being God's ,ought as a matter of course to belong to the people at large."
This is parallel to the recent debates about whether the internet should be "free", and what are the rights of artists & authors in the digital age.
It is true - the topicality of the book is amazingly modern, but it is also a distinctly Victorian novel. The Gregsbury's monologues are a mirror image of modern pseudo-emotional political discourse.
Great observations Robin. I think that the mark of a good book is that it retains its topicality over a long period of time and Dickens' books certainly have done that.
Robin wrote: "I haven't finished this section yet, but again I'm astounded at how topical this book is today. Mr Gregsbury's patriotic speeches could come from a current candidate's debate. In fact, recently one..."I was thinking the same as I read Gregsbury's speeches, and it's amazing how something that seemed to work so well so many years ago, still seems to work today. I think we should try to come up with Dickensian names for our political leaders and candidates today...how about Mr. Avriman Forimself?
I just posted four illustrations for the chapters we are reading this week, and here is a link with information about the illustrator, C.S. Reinhart:http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus...
Do you all find that the illustrations are helpful in your reading, or do they not bear out the "illustrations" you have in your mind as you read? Do they embody Dickens unique characterizations? I find they mostly help me visualize the look of the Victorian times, the style of dress, the interiors of rooms...
I love them:-) Nicholas is slightly different from the image I have, but the evil characters are the mirror images:-)
I always see Dickens' characters as from the old black nd white BBC series, or old black and white films:).
Mod
Why are Nicholas and Kate so fastidious and unworldly? They certainly didn't get it from their mother. Their father seemed mainly passive, but apparently he had some nobility. Whatever good qualities he inherited passed Ralph by, so it's not simply a matter of "blood will tell".
Ralph is a different type of stingy rich man than Scrooge. He begrudges money given to others but has no problem lavishing it on himself.
Why are Nicholas and Kate so fastidious and unworldly?This may be something to do with bringing children up to 'be seen and not heard'? Middle class children were very protected from the outside world and other people, and spent much of their life in a nursery protected by a governess etc.
Robin wrote: "Ralph is a different type of stingy rich man than Scrooge. He begrudges money given to others but has no problem lavishing it on himself."Actually, I got the impression that Ralph doesn't spend very freely even on himself. Doesn't he live in a crummy neighborhood ("Golden Square")? And I may have misinterpreted, but I got the idea that all the sumptuous furnishings, and footmen, etc., that appeared at the party were just rented for the occasion. Speaking of which, what is a "footman" exactly, anyway?
I dislike Ralph a whole lot more than Scrooge - or at least my image of Scrooge. I remember Scrooge as being mainly stingy, unfeeling, and contemptuous of poor people, but not actively mean and nasty, the way Ralph is. It seems to me he is really out to get certain people - like Lord Verisopht, who is being drawn into a "web" that will drain his money and ruin him completely. And earlier, the way that he gratuitously told Miss La Creevy to be sure to kick the Nicklebies out of their rooms by the end of the week, really p*ssed me off. Not to mention his active participation in Squeers' racket and his nasty behavior to Nicholas, as well as (more subtly) his setting up of Kate with Verisopht and Mulberry Hawk. (Yes, great names!)
Ralph is certainly a lot like Scrooge, though, in his attempt to armor himself against human feelings. I've only counted two glimpses of humanity in him to date -(1) in chapter one, when it mentioned that he sometimes thought of his brother, only to conclude that he'd better keep his distance in case he got asked for money! and (2) the passage that Robin mentions where he is moved, for a few nanoseconds, by Kate's tears.
On another note, for me the scenes where Nicholas rises up against Squeers and Ralph, respectively, have the biggest "cringe factor". Not because his rising up is unbelievable - I agree, for example, with the commenters who said that Nicholas from the beginning was going through a slow burn at Dotheboys Hall. Rather, the stilted, heroic language he uses gets on my nerves. Second biggest cringe factor for me is the conversation between Nicholas and Smike.
Zulfiya wrote: "I can hardly hide the feeling of irritation every time I read about Mrs. Nickleby. ..."Yes, isn't she insufferable? With her total self-delusion about how her misfortune came about. She constantly revises her memory of events to coincide with how she likes to picture herself.
Mari wrote: "I just posted four illustrations for the chapters we are reading this week, and here is a link with information about the illustrator, C.S. Reinhart:http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illus......"
Thank you so much for posting the pictures. They're great!
What is a footman...They were originally called this because they ran behind the carriages of wealthy people to remove obstacles etc and later it became the name for the servants who stand behind people at dinner in order to serve them food. They were chosen for their good looks and nicely turned calves:).
Bob wrote: "Mari wrote: "I just posted four illustrations for the chapters we are reading this week, and here is a link with information about the illustrator, C.S. Reinhart:http://www.victorianweb.org/art/i..."
You're welcome, Bob!
MadgeUK wrote: "What is a footman...They were originally called this because they ran behind the carriages of wealthy people to remove obstacles etc and later it became the name for the servants who stand behind..."
Thanks for that info, I never thought before about the origin of the word "footman". I guess if I had thought about it I might have thought it came from waiting on someone "hand and foot". I like the "nicely turned calves" part :)
Bob wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "I can hardly hide the feeling of irritation every time I read about Mrs. Nickleby. ..."Yes, isn't she insufferable? With her total self-delusion about how her misfortune came a..."
I am a little behind, and have just been able to finish the chapters.
However, I fully agree with Zulfiya and Bob that Mrs. Nickleby is very irritating. I think there is probably a psychological term for her state of mind. In my opinion she is completely illusionising her situation (and also the probable duration of it, as she is already thinking of Kate becoming partner in Madame Mantalini's business after her first day), which in the end is the only thing that keeps her going. This must be a subconcious, self-protective reflex. However, it is really hard to watch, esp. when she seems to believe Ralph Nickleby more than her own son and is not willing to see his real character.
Bob wrote: "I dislike Ralph a whole lot more than Scrooge - or at least my image of Scrooge. I remember Scrooge as being mainly stingy, unfeeling, and contemptuous of poor people, but not actively mean and nasty, the way Ralph is. It seems to me he is really out to get certain people - like Lord Verisopht, who is being drawn into a "web" that will drain his money and ruin him completely. ..."I had the same impression of Ralph:
I also had the association with Scrooge, but as Bob says, he seems much more wicked, as he deliberately tries to lure people into his "web" and manipulate them.
The only glance of hope I could find so far for this character was his reaction on Kate's tears and his remembrance of his brother in that very moment at the end of chapter 19. For the first time, he seems a little humane.Unfortunately, that moment did not last very long.
One of my favorite paragraphs within these chapters was the description of the area where the Members of Parliament reside."Within the precincts of the ancient city of Westminster ..... find that it, too, is no thoroughfare for them; that, like Manchester Buildings, it leads to nothing beyond itself; and that they are fain at last to back out, no wiser, no richer, not one whit more famous, than they went in."
I liked the satirical points on politics (e.g changing your vote due to your wife's being invited by someone or having a pledge toput down the coughing and groaning in the House of Commons - as if there were not more important issues) in chapter 16 very much, and as mentioned already, they still are very up-to-date. It reminded me also a little of Gulliver's Travels in which there have been also satirical parallels to British politics of Swift's times. So some things never seem to change.
Robin wrote: "I haven't finished this section yet, but again I'm astounded at how topical this book is today. Mr Gregsbury's patriotic speeches could come from a current candidate's debate. In fact, recently one..."Excellent post, and yes, it does remind me of politics today. Politicians focusing on the unimportant and worrying about their own egos rather than working for their constituents.
Madge told me in another post in the chat thread that there was copyright infringement of Dickens' work in the U.S. I'm not sure of the timing, but maybe he was referencing that here? I'll have to check. But yes, it is timely. And I can see both sides.
Though interestingly, I read an article this past week about a well known Brazilian author (whose name I can't remember) who said it is okay to put his works up for free on the internet. He feels that the more that is out there for free, but more people will know an author's work, and want to buy their works - reading on the internet is difficult, and if they like it, they will want to continue in a more comfortable way.
About Ralph.I actually thought he was softening at the end of Chapter 19 when he sees his brother's face in Kate's when he was helping her into the coach.
But then in Chapter 20, he shows yet again how despicable he really is. What makes him even more contemptible is that unlike some of Dickens' other characters, he is very realistic. There have been countless people like Ralph who put money over humans. Recent example - I've read a lot of articles recently about Apple and how workers in China who make their products are being ill-treated. Even though they know about it, Apple doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. Have to keep the price low no matter what. And they are the most successful company ever, more money than they know what to do with, and they still won't play fairly.
As a single woman myself, I loved this depiction of Miss LaCreevy."Here was one of the advantages of having lived alone so long! The little bustling, active, cheerful creature existed entirely within herself, talked to herself, made a confidante of herself, was as sarcastic as she could be, on people who offended her, by herself; pleased herself, and did no harm. If she indulged in scandal, nobody's reputation suffered; and if she enjoyed a little bit of revenge, no living soul was one atom the worse. One of the many to whom, from straitened circumstances, a consequent inability to form the associations they would wish, and a disinclination to mix with the society they could obtain, London is as complete a solitude as the plains of Syria, the humble artist had pursued her lonely, but contented way for many years; and, until the peculiar misfortunes of the Nickleby family attracted her attention, had made no friends, though brimful of the friendliest feelings to all mankind. There are many warm hearts in the same solitary guise as poor little Miss La Creevy's."
Mari wrote: "But poor Miss Knag! "Of all the things in the world, Madame Mantalini," said the lord's intended, throwing herself languidly on a sofa, "I hate being waited upon by frights or elderly persons. Let me always see that young creature, I beg, whenever I come." No wonder her feelings are hurt, but then she takes it out on Kate."I felt sorry in a way for Miss Knag as well. She does treat Kate poorly, but I can't image someone being so cruel right to someone's face. It is bound to hurt. Of course, she's silly so it lessens one's sympathy towards her.
Nothing to add about Nicholas - he gets more honorable with each passing chapter. The total opposite of his uncle.And Bob, forgot to say how much I liked your post about Ralph when I posted about Ralph. Excellent post!
Lynnm wrote: "As a single woman myself, I loved this depiction of Miss LaCreevy."Here was one of the advantages of having lived alone so long! The little bustling, active, cheerful creature existed entirely ..."
I liked that one, too, Lynnm. :-)
Sorry about all the posts, but I really am getting into this book. And finally caught up with you all!
Excellent posts, Lynnm. They are very insightful, well-researched, delightfully well-written, and I can definitely feel your passion about the book.
