Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Frankly, I think it’s because most readers are too lazy to look for good indie authors. There are millions of books to choose from, which means it takes work to find something. Most people want to pluck up what’s #1 and be done with it. I read indies and have found a lot of treasures! But I don’t mind searching and scrolling to find them. I even do reviews for Readers Favorite to pick up indie books. A lot of people just want to download the top results or grab what’s in the front counter at the store so they can get back to Facebook. Sad but true. Us indie authors aren’t just competing with other titles; we’re also competing for effort, time & attention.
But think of the pleasure of discovering something really good.
Some look at books as books while others see a difference between published authors and self published authors who write them. The thing to remember is that self published authors put more work into their novels in the sense that they went the independent route.
Jennifer wrote: "Hi Jim,My profession is mathematics. I wrote 5 novels as my only hobby. Fiction is as hard as you want it to be. I put enormous effort into it, but I wrote for myself. I wanted something I could ..."
Jennifer,
Your author profile reveals that you have had six novels published. Having only written one novel myself and have no intention of writing another, I realize how much time, energy, discipline, and determination are involved in the process. The fact that you have produced six works is very impressive.
Although very few authors ever achieve commercial success, some do. There is no reason why you might not eventually become one of them. I wish you well.
I think that the framework for what we expect from a self published author is changing. Many books self published today meet the highest standards. That was not always so. Today the self published author is embracing several edits and thus the result is professional. Who to use for printing, design of covers, and what to do about marketing are the important questions. I do not differentiate and read in my genre (mainly) mystery, fresh and new voices and have been rewarded for doing so.
Hi Jim,For some reason they (or I) gave me double credit for one book, but I am writing a sixth novel. It all comes down to the love of doing something. It's been an incredible privilege to write what I want to write. But I have to reverse the considerations here. The readers get to read what they want to read; the critics get to criticize how they like. It's the way the world works. I dread a truly just system. I wouldn't ask for a truly just critic.
Alicia wrote: "just spent two days of my life making a couple of really tiny typo corrections ..."LOL, I know how you feel. I do that kind of thing, too, both in e-book and paper. Thus I often end up with more "micro-editions" than readers. ;-)
Lyra wrote: "...indies need a centralized place to promote that is low in cost and has a wide reach with at least a dozen tentacles that help us promote..."Yes to that, but every time I've seen such a site on the launching pad, it hasn't gained enough traction to really take off, and ends up flopping. These days I keep my own list of indie writers I like, mostly after stumbling over them here on GR... Their collective output pretty much keeps my TBR list full.
And then there's the issue of availability. I just looked up a writer who recently commented on this thread and has published a few novels. Only one is available as an e-book. The others are hard cover and/or paperback, with prices barely sub-astronomical. And only two even have descriptions here... *sigh* Yeah, I acquired a 'Zon sample of one, but the one that looks most interesting might as well be unavailable at the going price and format...Take home point: if you want to attract readers, first make your books [reasonably] available.
I can't believe this thread still exists LOL. It's been YEARS!
Sherri wrote: "Frankly, I think it’s because most readers are too lazy to look for good indie authors. There are millions of books to choose from, which means it takes work to find something. Most people want to ..."What treasures did you find? Has anyone started a list called Self-Published Treasures? I think it'd be great to start one if it hasn't been done yet. ;)
Richard wrote: "Alicia wrote: "just spent two days of my life making a couple of really tiny typo corrections ..."LOL, I know how you feel. I do that kind of thing, too, both in e-book and paper. Thus I often en..."
I'm still at the stage of looking up individual readers here who make interesting comments; several have turned out to read mainstream - and have become friends.
Write for any length, and who you are shows through (though it can take years and thousands of words to get a true picture). Especially since people really hate being 'marketed' to.
I personally prefer to read only traditional print books - hard cover and/or paperback. An avid reader, I visit the local public library quite often. If a title or cover attracts my interest, I borrow the book; the publishing method doesn't matter. I only purchase a book if I know that I will wish to read it more than once.
The book shelves in my den currently hold 116 books (33 non-fiction & 83 fiction).
Heather wrote: "Sherri wrote: "Frankly, I think it’s because most readers are too lazy to look for good indie authors. There are millions of books to choose from, which means it takes work to find something. Most ..."Heather wrote: "I can't believe this thread still exists LOL. It's been YEARS!"
There are a few that stand out. I just finished The Tournament Trilogy, by B.B. Griffith. I also liked Mercury Ice - The Seventh Coordinate and Mercury Ice - The Journey, by Michael Morrow. The Exodus Trilogy, by Andreas Christensen is also very good.
"Traditional publishing may be an author's goal, but it isn't a choice; only submitting is a choice. "As a first time author, I cannot agree more. While I have chosen to submit, I have not yet received an offer. At some point I will choose to self publish.
Good luck, Dianne - hope you get what you want.What do you write?
I have written and self-published three books without a thought about traditional, and they have sold quite well - two are historical ghosted memoirs, one is niche poetry. Self-published fiction is harder to sell, and IMO way harder to write. I have read a lot of self-published or very small press books, and especially love the memoirs. I review them on Goodreads and Amazon since as small fish they need all the marketing help they can get! Marketing is where most writers fail.
I don't know if this is right or wrong or if this information is helpful but what I did for my first book was self-published and then went through the process of sending it out to small publishers. I received feedback from on publisher as to why they were going to pass but the information was beneficial, and I plan to send them my next book before self-publishing to see if it fits their bill. Other publishers who were interested had no issue republishing my book as a second edition if I went with them.
Linda wrote: "I have written and self-published three books without a thought about traditional, and they have sold quite well - two are historical ghosted memoirs, one is niche poetry. Self-published fiction is..."Linda,
The marketing is the aspect I am having the most difficulty with and one of the reasons I wanted to go with a publisher. You said you've had success with your self-published books; do you have any tips for marketing? I know the genre can play a role, but any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you,
JD
Hi J.D.I've been wading into the marketing aspect of self-publishing for the last year, and if you're still trying to make progress there I've got some resources that I'd be happy to send your way. I'll toss you a PM a bit later today.
Kira wrote: "Hi J.D.I've been wading into the marketing aspect of self-publishing for the last year, and if you're still trying to make progress there I've got some resources that I'd be happy to send your wa..."
Would you shoot me a PM too, Kira? I'm interested in your resources ;-)
Shanna wrote: "Kira wrote: "Hi J.D.I've been wading into the marketing aspect of self-publishing for the last year, and if you're still trying to make progress there I've got some resources that I'd be happy to..."
Of course, Shanna!
J.D., if you're still following this thread, I tried PMing you yesterday but for some reason the system couldn't find you. Maybe I'm not doing something correctly, so if you see this feel free to send me a PM and I'll reply. Otherwise I'll keep trying.
Because they haven't got a publisher behind them. A good publisher helps promote the book.
Legitimate traditional publishers provide the services of a qualified, professional copy editor, conceptual editor, layout design artist, graphic design artist, and marketing team. If one's manuscript is rejected by all of the traditional publishers' acquisition/evaluation teams to whom they are submitted, then the services of a vanity press or self-publishing remain viable options. However, if one of the alternatives to traditional publishing is chosen, the services of a qualified freelance copy editor, conceptual editor, layout design artist, graphic design artist, and marketing service should be seriously considered, and obtained, if at all possible, to insure the best quality finished product.
Unfortunately, the literary field is so saturated by both experienced and novice writers that the odds of achieving commercial success are stacked against those seeking it. That said; some do succeed. There is no reason why you may not eventually become one of them. I wish all who strive to become a best-selling author ultimate success.
I have not read through every page of this thread, but one salient point needs to be made: if I sell only 1/5th the number of books self-published compared to the traditional route, I'll still make just as much, or more, money. My principal reason for self-publication is to enjoy the opportunity to make my writing into a self-contained business. It is ludicrous to imagine one person can be all the stages of editing, cover designer and marketeer - so why not give it a try anyway?
My current book cover is not satisfactory (I'm working on it) but the first four chapters are available for free per the usual Kindle Look Inside feature. I'd be interested to get feedback from professional editors on those first four chapters. How many real errors can you spot? I don't mean pettifogging dross like using double-inverted commas with British spelling. I mean material errors of style that would bother the average reader.
Extreme Economic Logic by James Connell Clyde.
James, there are many professional editors who offer partial manuscript evaluations as one of their services. I don't know that you'll get many to go through your first four chapters and give feedback for free. Did you have decent beta feedback prior to publishing?
Hi Lynda,Yes, I gathered a lot of beta feedback from a wide range of people.
I have to confess I was being a little cheeky in my post, to see if anyone would bite.
Hey, it never hurts to ask. You never know, right? I just didn't want you to be disappointed if no one offered. That's a solid couple hours of work if done right.
James wrote: "...the first four chapters are available for free per the usual Kindle Look Inside feature..."Is this a new thing for the unwary reader? People who put up unfinished work on Amazon as if it were a complete book?
Or is this a complete book on Amazon that the author isn't satisfied with, so is offering for free on the off chance that someone might offer usable feedback?
Sounds like a way to kill the book's chances before it gets started. IMHO, of course.
I do but they are often hard to find.
I think you have to be confident that you can do it. I edited, proofread, and did most of the covers for my 3 self published (fiction) books. No one read any of them before I published. (not even nearest and dearest!) Enjoyed doing so and pleased that I did otherwise I know that they would never have seen the light of day. Am currently writing a biography which is a little more difficult as it is of an important historical figure and everything has to be accurate and as I am not a historian any more than I am a writer I need to constantly check everything from a variety of sources.
I feel there is a stigma about self-published authors that the quality of their work won’t be as good as a traditional published author. The reason why someone self-publishes is not because their work isn’t good enough to be published by traditional publishers but that traditional publishers only seem to publish people that have been in the industry and have established themselves. They don’t seem to be believe in authors that are only starting out. Self-published authors, if they are doing their job right, work harder than any traditional published author because they don’t have the same financial backing and are having the create everything themselves.
You are right, Jamie, but it is also true that there is a very wide variation in the quality of self-published work, for obvious reasons. A book published by a traditional publisher might have many flaws- it might be boring, etc. etc. but it would at least be grammatically correct, which is not always the case in self-published works. There are also, of course, different avenues to take in self-publishing. My approach is the most basic, do-it-yourself one, which costs almost nothing. Then if you start to pay proof-readers, editors, cover designers etc. the cost can escalate.
One obvious point no one seems to have mentioned is that agents (who you need to submit to for trad publishing), receive about 500 books a week, 52 weeks of the year. Out of this, they may choose 1 or 2 authors to take forward. If they have a celebrity name they will always take these books first. It is therefore hard to see that quality alone will get you a trad book deal.Equally, if you don't sell enough books you will be dropped by that company as they are running a business. They do not promote your book because they don't have the budget. When you sign a contract you give up all rights, including translation, cover, and even the right to be published.
I do write and read indie books, but Amazon has loads of promotional offers pushing indie authors even further down the list. The best promotion is this site and recommendations. We all need to write better reviews, keep on reading and learning.
This situation is made even more frustrating for self-published authors when they see publishers pushing forward 'popular' or 'bestselling' authors, even when they are widely seen as mediocre writers. E.L. James, for example, just had her latest, THE MISTER, published and is getting rather lackluster (not to say stinking) ratings and reviews. Yet, her book was launched with the usual 'best selling author' fanfare.
It never fails to amaze me how many millions of books are being published. An incredible avalanche of books most of which I will never read, whether they are self published or not.
With very few exceptions, everyone possesses the capability and one or more skills in which they excel. Those skills can then be applied and exploited to the extent that they provide the possessor with the means to earn a comfortable, and sometimes, luxurious lifestyle.Some become outstanding athletes, some excel in the business, scientific, or mechanical, fields, others become great writers and best-selling authors, etc., etc.
The key to success is for one to be honest with oneself when determining in which skills one excels and those in which one is mediocre at best. The problem with some self-published authors is that they do not seek professional, outside opinions. Instead they wallow in the praise and compliments of close acquaintances and relatives who, for whatever reason, will not point out poor spelling, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation, or sub-par narration.
Unsuccessful authors - commercially or self-published - may have to face up to the reality that, though they may be exceptionally skilled in some areas, writing is just not one of them.
That said; some self-published authors have beaten the odds and become popular, best-selling authors. Who knows? You may be one of them.
Another easy way to obtain some free publicity is through author interviews offered by many authors on Goodreads.I've been offering author interviews since 2013 on www.ritaleechapman.com. Anyone interested can contact me through the website. Each interview is posted for a week.
Jim wrote: "With very few exceptions, everyone possesses the capability and one or more skills in which they excel. Those skills can then be applied and exploited to the extent that they provide the possessor ..."
Jim, E.L. James is a best-selling author, but she certainly isn't what I would call a talented writer. Also, you complained about poor spelling, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation and sub-par narration, but what about the story-telling, the world building, the character development and the suspense/drama/plot in the story? Those last four elements are what makes a book entertaining to the readers. You might have a book with perfect grammar, spelling and punctuation, but with an unimaginative, uninspiring or downright lousy/boring story. When I read a book, I concentrate on the story and the characters, not on how perfect the grammar or spelling was.
Jim, E.L. James is a best-selling author, but she certainly isn't what I would call a talented writer. Also, you complained about poor spelling, bad grammar, incorrect punctuation and sub-par narration, but what about the story-telling, the world building, the character development and the suspense/drama/plot in the story? Those last four elements are what makes a book entertaining to the readers. You might have a book with perfect grammar, spelling and punctuation, but with an unimaginative, uninspiring or downright lousy/boring story. When I read a book, I concentrate on the story and the characters, not on how perfect the grammar or spelling was.
Michel wrote: "Jim wrote: "With very few exceptions, everyone possesses the capability and one or more skills in which they excel. Those skills can then be applied and exploited to the extent that they provide th..."Michel,
If you read the comment (message 2208) carefully, you will note that, in the third paragraph, I do Include narration , the term often utilized in literary and writing seminars to describe effective story-telling, as a basic writing skill.
I do not disagree with your reference to the author E.I. James being an untalented writer. A statistical analysis of any subject matter will reveal that there will always be exceptions to any rule. The very definition of exception reveals that it is not the accepted or preferred norm.
There are seminars, classes, books, and periodicals available at little or no cost that provide an aspiring writer the opportunity to learn basic spelling, punctuation, grammar, narration, and syntax. All that is required is the willingness and discipline to expend the time, effort, and resources to learn. Within any chosen field, one must first learn how to perform successfully in order to succeed.
I am an avid reader who enjoys a good story as much as anyone. I just prefer the good story to be technically well written. How many times have you heard the adage "Anything worth doing is worth doing well"? Of course, this is my personal, and therefore subjective, opinion. Others may disagree. What a boring and dull world this would be if everyone agreed about everything all the time.
Alicia wrote: "James wrote: "...the first four chapters are available for free per the usual Kindle Look Inside feature..."Is this a new thing for the unwary reader? People who put up unfinished work on Amazon ..."
No, it's so readers can check out sample chapters before they decide to buy it.
Aren't mainstream publishing houses in the business of making/polishing the book to sell and make a profit? I'm sure lots of editing and chopping goes into it to make it such a marketable product. Perhaps the indie-author is not praying to the almighty dollar-sign Gods that 'Big Name' Houses do - since again, in the end, they need to make a profit, get the book onto bookshelves, and again, make a profit and keep up their name in the business. The indie-author is usually alone and unafraid, until picked up - then perhaps they are still unafraid but not so alone anymore... I didn't self-publish my first book for fame and notoriety, just to squeeze my toes into a still somewhat shut door...
I've noticed that most of the nonfiction authors I've worked with have hired developmental editors, whereas it's more the exception for fiction indies to hire a DE. Many of them go straight to copyediting after betas. I firmly believe you can't underestimate the value a developmental editor can bring to a manuscript. Perhaps fiction writers have a better network of critique partners along the way, but I've done heavy edits on some manuscripts that should have seen a DE's touch long before I came into the picture.
The problem that few people seem to realize is that quite a few self-published/indie writers don't have any money that they could spend on literary agents, editors, professional proofreaders, cover design artists and the like. They thus have to do everything by themselves on a very tight budget. Since publishing houses tend to stay with 'established' or 'bestselling' authors and rarely pick up new and unknown writers, those writers are often stuck without any professional support. So, for those saying that indie/self-published authors must ensure that their books are typo-free and grammatically impeccable, just remember that not everybody can afford to spend thousands of dollars on professional help, unless they cut on their groceries budget.
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "I expect any novel I read to be a professional product, not only free of typos, bad grammar, misspellings, and crazy punctuation..."Why would you expect less?
There are millions of books available to buy or borrow - finding what you like may be a problem, but with your reading background (I Compared books), you have the standards to recognize good writing when you find it.
Indies have many ways to get our work up to snuff, and some of those ways don't require cash in any quantity.
But some writers have been led to believe that doing the best you can means it's fine to release your unfinished work into the marketplace, and you will get better by keeping on the same path.
I wish them well, but I won't read them. I can't.
Michel wrote: "The problem that few people seem to realize is that quite a few self-published/indie writers don't have any money..."Publishing is a business and that takes start-up capital. I have a budget for each book that allows for a professional cover, editing (sometimes a dev edit, but always copy edits) and a proofread. If I can't afford those things, I don't publish until I have the capital to fund the book.
Self published books have a bad reputation because so many of them are absolutely awful with zero production standards. Then authors complain they have no money for editing etc. When I buy a car I'm not interested in one where the manufacturer couldn't afford brakes. If I'm paying my hard earned money for a product, I want something polished and professional.
There are plenty of ways to boot strap. For example, a $50 premade cover from a designer with a good eye, can do an excellent job until you have the income flowing. Some indies trade skills, like cover design or formatting.
But please have some respect for readers. Don't charge for a professional product if it's not. If you just want to reach readers you can always post your work on a site like Wattpad which is free and where standards/expectations are lower.
The Just-About-Cocky Ms M wrote: "If you as a potential writer don't understand that writing is a profession, and a book is a professional product, then do us all a favor and find another career...."
News for you, Just-About-Cocky Ms M: not all people who write do so to earn a living. Many do it as a hobby, or with the wish to simply share ideas and concepts with others. If you see writing only as a dollar and cents thing, then you don't understand what writing is all about.
To Alicia: I agree that the readers have the right to expect a good product. Yes, some indie writers do produce rather mediocre products, but others manage to write stories as good or even better as those from so-called 'best-selling authors'. The book cover art they produce by themselves may not be as fancy as those made by paid professional designers but what is more important to you? The cover or the story inside the book? With the tiny percentage of manuscripts written around that are selected and picked up by publishers, the great majority of writers never get chosen to be published and thus get professional support from an editor, so they have to go the self-publishing way. Please don't dismiss them out of hand without even trying to read what they do.
News for you, Just-About-Cocky Ms M: not all people who write do so to earn a living. Many do it as a hobby, or with the wish to simply share ideas and concepts with others. If you see writing only as a dollar and cents thing, then you don't understand what writing is all about.
To Alicia: I agree that the readers have the right to expect a good product. Yes, some indie writers do produce rather mediocre products, but others manage to write stories as good or even better as those from so-called 'best-selling authors'. The book cover art they produce by themselves may not be as fancy as those made by paid professional designers but what is more important to you? The cover or the story inside the book? With the tiny percentage of manuscripts written around that are selected and picked up by publishers, the great majority of writers never get chosen to be published and thus get professional support from an editor, so they have to go the self-publishing way. Please don't dismiss them out of hand without even trying to read what they do.
Michel wrote: "To Alicia: ... Please don't dismiss them out of hand without even trying to read what they do...."
Please check the pronouns! I'm indie all the way - and completely DIY. I took the route of learning to do rigorous self-editing - and spend a huge amount of time getting things right!
Precisely because I know it can be done, I find it vexing when other writers put out books that have so many errors of so many kinds that I can't get to the story.
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My profession is mathematics. I wrote 5 novels as my only hobby. Fiction is as hard as you want it to be. I put enormous effort into it, but I wrote for myself. I wanted something I could put on the shelf for a year, for ten years, and come back to it for the enjoyment of the quality. I prefer lots of characters and much complication. It is not a popular style. Totally agree: The odds of any published work becoming commercially successful are nearly insurmountable.