Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Even highly acclaimed self-published books rarely get reviewed in mass market publications and rarely can get past the gatekeepers at bookstores, and that makes it harder for consumers to find many well-written books they might enjoy. The publishing model favors supporting indie bookstores but not indie authors. With the terms that major publishing houses offer authors, I don't see why an author would choose that route, except for the POTENTIAL for mass promotion and distribution. But that deal often turns out to be disappointing for many authors. The only ones who make money are the publishers.
Mary wrote: "What is the difference between using someone like Page and doing every step yourself? Nothing..."Wow! You really don't know anything about the publishing industry, no wonder you got caught up in a scam.
There's an enormous difference between paying a vanity press like Page and self publishing. The simplest way to explain is that there is a fundamental difference in approach - vanity presses have no interest in selling books. They make money scamming naive writers who don't do their research. Page rakes in millions a year from desperate would be authors. You are a walking cheque book to them and they have no interest in trying to sell books to genuine readers, because that's much harder.
Self publishers derive an income from selling books.
There is also a world of difference in production standards. Most indies strive to produce a polished, professional product. Most vanity presses produce a sub-standard product you can spot a mile away, because they simply don't want to waste any cash on it (because again, they don't make their money from selling books).
Here's some other common traits of vanity presses:
* Inadequate to no editing. Many authors are told their book is edited when at most its run through spell checker. Vanity published books are often riddled with typos and errors.
* Awful, amateurish covers with illegible typography
* Weird formatting, so the look inside is often messed up
* Ridiculous prices that are out of step with the market
* They grab all your worldwide rights and won't give them up
* No control. Author has no ability to change price or markets.
* They then take a chunk of any royalties. Not really an issue with most vanity published titles as with ranks in the millions, they barely crack double digits anyway.
Swapping reviews with other authors isn't going to make up for fundamental issues with the product.
A.W. wrote: "Mary wrote: "What is the difference between using someone like Page and doing every step yourself? Nothing..."Wow! You really don't know anything about the publishing industry, no wonder you got ..."
An excellent comment, @A.W. I don't know anything about this company because I never even look at vanity presses. They aren't much more than printing contractors who pray on hopeful authors. I have written about their tactics many a time because every indie author needs to be warned!
Thank you for your detailed comment that will help many.
Gisela wrote: "I have written about their tactics many a time because every indie author needs to be warned!.."Thanks Gisela. It is frustrating because the information is out there. It only takes a 30 second google search to discover these scam vanity presses. All we can do is continue to try and educate the unwary.
It's also frustrating as it gives indies a bad reputation as these so called "publishers" have appalling standards, deliver a bad reader experience and we all get tarred with the same brush.
A.W. wrote: "Mary wrote: "What is the difference between using someone like Page and doing every step yourself? Nothing..."Wow! You really don't know anything about the publishing industry, no wonder you got ..."
This is ridiculous as I refuse to devote any more time to it. Have a nice life A.W.
A.W. wrote: "Gisela wrote: "I have written about their tactics many a time because every indie author needs to be warned!.."Thanks Gisela. It is frustrating because the information is out there. It only takes..."
Thank you @A.W. - To be precise things are getting worse.
Before POD, a well-meaning person could make the case that at least vanity publishers handled the printing well. And, they got better prices. So, that was at least one plus point.
Now with POD that thought is thin air too b/c POD is actually better than storing your books in ones' garage. Paper needs to be stored properly, most often garages don't meet the standards (A/C etc.)
I self-published my first book in 1988, published 20 books ( 3 via offset before POD) have 29-yr industry experience, incl. winning a copyright lawsuit a n d I published a book about the most common scams. It's my only book in KU b/c I actually want to help indie authors.
Alas, some who don't have KU prefer to save to $2.99, which may cost them thousands of dollars.
Well, like you said, we can only try our best.
The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "I have always found it amusing to be castigated by an overly defensive indie/SPA/Page Publishing devotee whose best recourse is to screech that those of us who criticize vanity presses don't know nuthin' about nuthin'..."Yes. I know nothing about publishing. Nothing at all. *hangs head in shame*
I spent years querying agents, working with critique partners, incorporating agent feedback, watching the industry, working through to the acquisitions committee with a couple of publishers, landing a trad deal, publishing traditionally before deciding to go indie. But I know nothing. Yet someone who threw a couple of grand at a vanity press knows all about the industry... *shrug*
There is one thing we should be grateful for, with the complete lack of any production standards the likes of Page has, the books are highly unlikely to ever fall into the hands of genuine readers. There's too many fantastic books out there waiting to be discovered, to waste time reading bad books :) Thanks to Goodreads and stalking the reviews of friends I have hundreds of books sitting on my kindle! lol
Gisela wrote: "Thank you @A.W. - To be precise things are getting worse. Before POD, a well-meaning person could make the case that at least vanity publishers handled the printing well. And, they got better prices. So, that was at least one plus point. "
I've also seen vanity presses prey on the naive by saying the will get their books into the Ingrams catalog and imply they will have national store distribution. But it doesn't work that way, anyone (self published or trad published) can have their title listed in the Ingrams catalog but that does NOT mean you book will appear on a store shelf.
B&N, for example, have an internal listing they use to order copies for stores. To make it onto that catalog, being in Ingrams is just the first step. You then have to go through B&N's internal application process for consideration. Readers also don't realise that books only have 6 weeks to perform with chain bookstores. If it doesn't sell above a certain level in 6 weeks, it will no longer be stocked. Plus shelf space is incredibly competitive. Trad publishing pay big money for features like cover out (as opposed to stack by spine) or end of shelf placement.
I use to be with a publisher who had distribution with B&N and Walmart, and yet I sell far more paperbacks now as a SPA. How people buy their books is changing, browsing is moving from in store to online. I'm not in physical stores but sell a large number of paperbacks through online stores like Book Depository.
I know for me as a reader I browse Goodreads, use the recommendations here to find my next book and then I go to Amazon knowing exactly what I want to purchase.
The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "I have always found it amusing to be castigated by an overly defensive indie/SPA/Page Publishing devotee whose best recourse is to screech that those of us who criticize vanity presses don't know n..."No, I don't say that, in fact I believe that in the days before POD vanity publishers had their place. If an author did perfect prep work as far as writing and editing is concerned, and was also prepared to market the book, a vanity publisher could help by getting a better deal for printing and binding books.
Since vanity publishers had/have a lot of orders they did get a better price. Let's not forget in those days 'hardcover' was in.
And then, there was the cover issue. Up till ten years ago, only graphic artists had designer software; up till twenty years ago a lot was done by hand. Taking care of that could be very challenging for an author. There was no Internet where you could see freelance contractors work and hire them, just like so.
There may be even good vanity publishers now, but at least I see a lot of complaints and I hear from many authors who have to buy back their rights. And, many vanity publishers advertise with misleading wording.
Here is an excerpt from my book:
Here are a few examples:
• No other publisher offers you more services to help you promote your book in newspapers, bookstores, and on the Internet.
[In plain English: YOU have to promote! They do NOT promote, they offer services, for which you may have to pay. In reality, you can find many of these services for free on the Internet, or you can buy them on the Internet without having to pay this publisher’s margin.]
• Your book will be available at online book retailers worldwide including Amazon.com, BarnesandNoble.com, and many more online bookstores.
[In plain English: Thousands of indie authors publish their books every single day at Amazon.com and other online bookstores worldwide. This service is nothing special but the bare minimum.]
• Book availability at iStore, Amazon, Barnes and Noble… John Doe* published with us and ended up with a New York Times Bestselling Book. Are you next?
[In plain English: Again, the fact that a book will be available at these Internet bookstores is the bare minimum. Also, this write-up does not explicitly say that John Doe* really published his NYT bestseller with this particular company. This pitch says “John Doe ended up writing a NYT bestseller.” I believe that if the company really published a NYT bestseller, they would have named the title of the book. The final question is rhetorical and does not mean anything.]
• We have the expertise you need to publish your book …
[In plain English: World-wide – every single day – hundreds of indie authors, who have never published a book, publish their first book at Amazon.com and other online bookstores. Amazon and all other online Internet bookstores make the process very easy. Additionally, these stores offer free guides on how to do it. Indie authors can also find help in many online forums, from Goodreads to Facebook. Lastly, Amazon’s and Createspace’s team will help authors. If at any time during the publishing process you have a question, you first check Amazon’s or Createspace’s excellent Q&A files for answers. If you can’t find what you need, you send an e-mail, and within 24 hrs, even the most complicated questions will be answered by an expert.]
• Successful book marketing usually begins with a press release.
[That’s only true for celebrity authors. Newspapers no longer publish press releases about anybody else’s books. Just open your local newspaper and check if you find any news about any book, other than maybe Pulitzer Prize winner Harper Lee’s next novel. If your book wins an award or becomes a bestseller, you may get lucky but you’ll have to pitch it. In my book “Naked Truth About Getting Book Reviews,” I lay out the facts why newspapers’ coverage of books has gone away over the last decade and who filled that void.
Successful book marketing begins with having a platform of friends who want to read and review your book as quickly as possible. You should also encourage them to share their reviews on their social media platforms.
Since YOU know when you will publish your book, you can arrange this type of early, social media coverage better and faster than anybody else. Since social media promotion is free, it is probably the better course of action than paying somebody to blast out a press release to journalists who don’t care about you, and who are probably waiting for Harper Lee’s new book.]
• You always keep your copyright as the creator of the work.
[Certain publishers have a tendency to describe this fact as if it was a special gift. Just recently I had a budding author tell me quite excitedly, “This publishing company even lets me keep my copyright.”
The copyright is a legal right created by the law of a country that grants the creator of any original work (the intellectual property of artists like authors, photographers, and musicians) exclusive rights to its use and distribution. While there are special situations like writers “working for hire,” e.g., for a newspaper or a magazine, in general the copyright is yours just like you are the mother or father of your child. You can sell the right to distribute, just like you can give up your child for adoption, but you will always be the parent of your child.
It is this significant detail that you can sell “the right to distribute” that makes all the difference. If you sell your right to distribute, signing a contract with a publisher means you’re agreeing to the terms within; the publisher is now in charge of publishing and distributing your book.
As with any legal contract, the cooperation can be wonderful or can turn into a nightmare. Just ask any divorcee. When he/she signed the (marriage) contract, both parties thought their union would be heaven on earth but eventually it ended in divorce. Therefore, keep your cool when reading certain well-formulated phrases BEFORE you sign! Make sure you clarify what you would have to do if you wanted to get out of the contract (similar to a prenuptial agreement). Then, get the information in writing before you sign any contract.]
Keep in mind that, if, for whatever reason, you change your mind about any detail of your book, the title, the content, or the cover, you’ll have to discuss this with the publisher. The publisher may or may not agree to your proposed change. Though, in general, the idea is that because the publisher has more experience than you do, there won’t be any need for changes, it happens all the time.
Please don’t take my word for it, but go to any author forum (e.g., at Goodreads or Facebook) and ask how many authors have changed anything about their book. You’ll be surprised how many authors have done just that, including E.L. James, the author of Fifty Shades of Grey.
*****
Gisela wrote: "Let's not forget in those days 'hardcover' was in. "And that has changed how? Trade paperback has lead sales for quite some time due to them being available at a lower retail rate, but when given the non-cost choice, hardcover is continually chosen first. eBooks are still the last choice.
Aidana wrote: "Gisela wrote: "Let's not forget in those days 'hardcover' was in. "And that has changed how? Trade paperback has lead sales for quite some time due to them being available at a lower retail rate..."
How has it changed? Well, besides people around the world buying my paperback books, libraries too are buying my paperback books. That was not an option 15 years ago. I have been self-publishing for 29 yrs and also visiting libraries for 45+ years.
Gisela wrote: "Aidana wrote: "Gisela wrote: "Let's not forget in those days 'hardcover' was in. "And that has changed how? Trade paperback has lead sales for quite some time due to them being available at a lo..."
I wasn't saying paperbacks are not selling. I'm saying I don't see where hardcover ever went out.
A.W. wrote: "The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "I have always found it amusing to be castigated by an overly defensive indie/SPA/Page Publishing devotee whose best recourse is to screech that those of us who c..."Your arrogance does you no service in trying to be convincing. You may be correct but yo arrogance makes you easy to ignore.
Gisela wrote: "The Just-About-Average Ms M wrote: "I have always found it amusing to be castigated by an overly defensive indie/SPA/Page Publishing devotee whose best recourse is to screech that those of us who c..."How do you distinguish vanity press (I have only heard that term in the last five years by those that have a vested interest in 'traditional publishing'), indie publishing and self publishing. I agree that there is a vast range of quality in all these types.
@Bruce, Vanity publishers mostly handle only printing and binding, some of them offer extra services (like promotions, press releases which are nonsense anyway... newspapers don't publish press releases any longer... etc. ) Authors have to pay vanity publishers because they take in whatever they can get. Their profit margin lies in that they print cheaper than if you went straight to a printer with only one print job. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_...
Self publishers authors are authors who are "forced" to self publish or authors like me who want to keep control over the process as well as the timeline.
Indie = independent (same as self publishers).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanity_...
I've been in the publishing industry for ten years working both sides of the publishing fence (traditional and indie) and the term 'vanity publishing' was a dirty word when I first started in 2007 and still is. Vanity publishing is when an author starts a self-publishing 'house' and charges for services like any other indie service does, but its primary goal is not to be a self-publishing company to help authors publish books as much as means of financially supporting the author's own writing and publishing needs.
Every vanity press I've worked with produced poor quality and are basically cons.
My saying this isn't due to any vested interest in traditional publishing because I actually make more money working in the indie world than I do in the traditional world. I do, however, notice more of the traditionally published books I've worked on/in have won nationally-recognized awards than my indie books have. That may be due to bias, but more likely due to poor quality books.
Gisela wrote: "@Bruce, Vanity publishers mostly handle only printing and binding, some of them offer extra services (like promotions, press releases which are nonsense anyway... newspapers don't publish press rel..."So self publishers deal directly with the printers. Amazon has a press. Is it a Vanity Press by your definition?
Gisela wrote: "newspapers don't publish press releases any longer"Actually, some papers actually still do. One of the small traditional publishers I work with just had a press release about a children's picture book that was both printed in the newspaper as well as their online edition. Granted, it was an unusual picture book (bilingual English/Cherokee folktale), but still a press release.
Amazon/CreateSpace is a self-publishing platform or service. Not a publisher in the traditional sense or even a 'vanity' press because a company is behind it vs an author or group of authors providing publishing services to others to pay for their own publications.Not sure if that made sense ... :/
Aidana wrote: "Gisela wrote: "newspapers don't publish press releases any longer"Actually, some papers actually still do. One of the small traditional publishers I work with just had a press release about a chi..."
Yes, I know... Credit to the Wilmington Star (NC) Nov 2012 ... [thank you :)) ]. After one of my books won an award the reporter visited me at my house with a press photographer.
Then again, when I self published my last book which I had printed off-set, in 1998, my book and I got featured 8 !!! times in only 4 local newspapers incl. the Miami Herald Key Edition p. B.1 in 2 1/2 years (1998- 2001) w i t h o u t trying too hard. That's history.
Unless you win the Pulitzer these opportunities just aren't available any longer.
I still think today it's just as easy or hard to get your book featured in a magazine as it is to get your book in the local paper. And, frankly, I understand the news papers. They know that there are thousands of online book blogs, hence it makes more sense to present a local charitable event. I am all with them. These days, I approach magazines.
Things have changed.
Gisela wrote: "Unless you win the Pulitzer these opportunities just aren't available any longer. "
I still think that a generalization that's inaccurate. The publisher and book I mentioned were just featured on Wed, July 26th of this year. Not a date way back in the 'good ole days.'
It's more likely a local/regional thing or maybe up to the newspaper's editor as to what books or book themes/topics they'll feature. But I do know for a fact, many of my authors and publishers tell me their book is (or they themselves are) in the paper with proud photos to prove it after they've bought a stack of copies to show disbelieving family and friends.
The above date is the one only specific date I could recall off the top of my head, though.
I think marketing a book is like marketing any product. What works for one won't always work for another, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's no longer done or that things have changed for all in the industry just because it's changed for certain people or areas.
I'd hate to think a newbie would discount their local paper as a legitimate possibility just because they've been given the impression it's no longer done, especially if their book would be of specific interest to their paper and region. In other words ... not to be argumentative at all ... I think every author/publisher should try all of the tools they can think of at their disposal and what will best serve their book.
Aidana wrote: "Gisela wrote: "Unless you win the Pulitzer these opportunities just aren't available any longer. "
I still think that a generalization that's inaccurate. The publisher and book I mentioned were j..."
Aidana, I agree. Try it, pitch them, but if it doesn't work, move on. With the same effort authors can pitch magazines that don't have the constraints local newspapers have.
My own work got featured in SUCCESS magazine, on Entrepreneur, on Bloomberg and NBCNews business blog. It's doable.
Wow! I miss reading this thread a couple days in a row and things really take a turn.Though I'm sorry Mary left the conversation (especially since she left it as an unhappy person), I will add that I agree with A.W., Ms M, and Gisela in regards to vanity presses. And Gisela, I so appreciate that you took the time to really outline what people get into if they aim to publish with a vanity press.
I recently did a blog post on scammers (vanity presses) and the underlying message was this: if you are going with a publisher, rather than the self-pub route, it is not up to YOU to pay THEM. A real publisher doesn't make you pay. People can argue all they want about self-publishing costs for edits, cover, formatting and the rest, saying that a vanity press can cost less than doing it yourself, but the bottom line is at the end of the day, you're still sharing any profits with someone else, unlike the self-publishing route. Vanity presses are out for their own gain, and no one will convince me differently.
I do feel bad for Mary, though, because Page is notorious for their scheming, and it only takes about 2.4 seconds on Google to sniff that out. Her insistence that she has had a good experience with them only means one of two things: she is part of a minute percentage who are satisfied with them, or she doesn't know how much better she is supposed to be doing.
I'm really enjoying all the differing perspectives here.
Bruce wrote: "Your arrogance does you no service in trying to be convincing."And you are reading a tone that isn't there. Amusement is not arrogance. If anything I am staggered that someone proclaims they know all about the industry, but she didn't even know to spend 30 seconds on google to figure out her "publisher" is a scam.
I'm not "trying" to be convincing, I'm sharing my experience of the publishing industry, but some have deaf ears.
Bruce wrote: "Amazon has a press. Is it a Vanity Press by your definition? "
There are two answers to that depending on what press you are talking about. Amazon owns CreateSpace, which is a POD service. It is not a vanity press, it is simply a printing press service.
Or, if you are talking about the aPubs (of which there are several, you can see them all here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...) they are traditional publishers who only take agented submissions. The big difference between the aPubs and the Big 5 is that aPubs only publish on Amazon and I believe their paperbacks are available in the new Amazon bookstores.
Lynda wrote: "Wow! I miss reading this thread a couple days in a row and things really take a turn.Though I'm sorry Mary left the conversation (especially since she left it as an unhappy person), I will add th..."
THX, @Lynda. I'll confess I didn't work that hard, I just copied and pasted a part from one of my books. :))
Bottom line is: There are "publishers" and "PUBLISHERS."
Gisela wrote: "Lynda wrote: "Wow! I miss reading this thread a couple days in a row and things really take a turn.Though I'm sorry Mary left the conversation (especially since she left it as an unhappy person),..."
I am a little confused. It seems to me that many so-called self-publishing companies are both. As in CreateSpace the author has a barebones option and much more elaborate options. There are also simply formatting services. Where do they fit?
Bruce wrote: "Gisela wrote: "Lynda wrote: "Wow! I miss reading this thread a couple days in a row and things really take a turn.Though I'm sorry Mary left the conversation (especially since she left it as an u..."
Bruce, this is a HUGE topic.
As you can imagine lots of creative publishers have invented dozens of options. Also, you can set up your own publishing company like I did. I can only recommend my book "Naked News for Indie Authors How NOT to Invest..." It's free with Kindle Unlimited.
Bruce wrote: "I am a little confused. It seems to me that many so-called self-publishing companies are both. As in CreateSpace the author has a barebones option and much more elaborate options."CreateSpace is simply a paperback distributor, like Ingrams or LightningSource. It costs nothing to use, I don't pay CS a cent. I upload my book files, select the distribution channels I want, set the price I want (to deliver the royalty I want) and hit publish. They pay me, I don't pay them.
Here's a couple of simply questions to ask yourself when considering publishers or service providers:
1. What way does the money flow?
If you are trying to distinguish a legitimate traditional publisher from a scam/vanity press, look in what direction the money flows. Legit publishers pay the authors. Vanity presses/scams charge the author. They also often have sales people to upsell to naive authors who end up paying thousands for an inferior book and services that do nothing.
2. Who has control?
Vanity presses/scams usually grab worldwide rights and hold them hostage. Their authors have no control over pricing, distribution or marketing. If you query agents in the hope of landing a traditional deal you will also loose a portion of control but (from what I have seen) trad contracts have far more reasonable terms than vanity press rights grabs.
If you are talking services for self published authors (like cover artists or editors or retailers like CreateSpace or Amazon) then the author always retains complete control over the book.
There are new services springing up that straddle the line an offer 'self publishing" services like editing/formatting etc. From what I have seen, they usually over charge and under deliver. If you put a bit of work into research you can usually find better professionals and a more reasonable price.
Self publishing is hard work, but it is rewarding once you build a team of professionals (cover artists, editors, formatters, proof readers) that you trust. There's no short cut to producing a quality product.
A.W. wrote: "If you are talking services for self published authors (like cover artists or editors or retailers like CreateSpace or Amazon) then the author always retains complete control over the book."As a professional cover artist who works both sides of the industry, I know legally, I retain copyright for any artwork I create unless I choose to sell the extended or full rights. The author only controls whether he will accept my work or not accept it. But the author has no control over it unless full copyright is purchased.
Bruce wrote: "As in CreateSpace the author has a barebones option and much more elaborate options. There are also simply formatting services. Where do they fit? "CS is a self-publishing service/platform. Not a self-publishing company.
Aidana wrote: "Bruce wrote: "As in CreateSpace the author has a barebones option and much more elaborate options. There are also simply formatting services. Where do they fit? "CS is a self-publishing service/p..."
But it does offer all the services including editing and cover.
Bruce wrote: "But it does offer all the services including editing and cover."For fees, yes, just like any other service-provider. I believe the question was if they were a vanity publisher, though, which I'd say no. Unless I misunderstood.
What does a vanity publisher do other than charge fees for those services? This is a serious not a rhetorical question.
Bruce wrote: "What does a vanity publisher do other than charge fees for those services? This is a serious not a rhetorical question."Bruce, I think the stumbling point for you seems to be that vanity publishers appear to be doing the same things that CS does. It seems similar, but vanity publishers actually have some claim to a variety of your book rights and profits, and in some cases, your future options (should you become famous and have your book made into a movie). Also, vanity presses are known for lesser-quality covers and book quality in general (cheaper paper, shoddy formatting). Self-publishers may pay for each service independently, but they choose their own cover designer, formatter, and more, and they keep all their book rights. The books, as a result, look much more professional because the author has the final say in each area.
Lynda wrote: "The books, as a result, look much more professional because the author has the final say in each area."Ideally, lol. I've run into a few authors that have no aesthetic what so ever and haven't done enough research in their own craft to know a good block layout from a bad one.
But yes, the benefit is, the only money CreateSpace takes on the back end is the cost of printing and shipping the books as orders come in. Where as a vanity press keeps a portion of the royalties as well as responsible for the royalty reports. The author never sees the full reports, so you have to trust they are not taking you from both ends, in service fees then again by possibly not reporting sales or taking a royalty from every sale, too.
Aidana wrote: "A.W. wrote: "If you are talking services for self published authors (like cover artists or editors or retailers like CreateSpace or Amazon) then the author always retains complete control over the ..."Correct. The artist owns the artwork copyright unless he/she sells it or gives permission to the company or author who commissions the artist.
I commissioned my illustrator, Sean Flanagan, for both my novels, Zombie Turkeys and My Undead Mother-in-law and in both cases I purchased full use of the cover and interior images for my publishing company.
The default is, the artist owns the copyright. The wise choice is to register your copyright with the federal government for $35. In either case, the artist is free to sell or lease the copyright.
I've been reading more paperbacks lately, maybe it's because the ebook is getting boring. Therefore I go for books where they have an offer. Like for example in the UK Tesco has an offer of 2 books for 7 pounds. Self published books don't do that, their paperbacks tend to be a lot more expensive.
Self-published books cost more because most have to use POD (print-on-demand) process rather than printing 10,000 copies at a huge volume discount, which in turn allows the big publishers to sell books for much less.
Aidana wrote: "Self-published books cost more because most have to use POD (print-on-demand) process rather than printing 10,000 copies at a huge volume discount, which in turn allows the big publishers to sell b..."Exactly!
@Aidana wrote: Self-published books cost more because most have to use POD(I know this is weeks late and the conversation is languishing, but...) Just in the FWIW Department, there are ways to get your POD costs down a lot. I usually do two things: (1) sell books via the POD service at the cost of printing; (2) buy copies when the POD service has a sale. It's possible to obtain copies on par with, or cheaper than, big-publisher paperbacks from retail outlets.
Richard wrote: "It's possible to obtain copies on par with, or cheaper than, big-publisher paperbacks from retail outlets."In my experience, and according to Lightning Source (owned by Ingram, the largest book distributor on the planet), unless an indie author can buy 10,000 copies at wholesale cost, then POD can't compete in the cost of production/printing/shipping costs vs retail & profit margin. I don't know many indie authors or small publishers who can afford to do that.
The average POD book costs $4-$6 each just to print (varies depending on page-count, color, size, etc). Major publishers, because they can order and warehouse 10,000 copies at once, they pay pennies per copy. So even when on sale, unless the cost of a POD is less than $25 per copy, it's not comparable.
Of course, an author CAN buy their way onto the best-sellers list by buying that many copies and store them in their garage to have on hand for selling and signings/events, but if found out, as a story recently exposed one author, discredits the author. They were also removed from the BSL.
Amazon has a new POD service that is fairly cheap for readers and free for authors. They only print copies when people order them, so you don't actually have to buy anything. I priced my newest novel at $9.99 and that is still over cost and similar to books from the big publishing houses.
But the royalty, the profit margin, is still vastly different. The average trade paperback is $5.99 retail. Almost half of what you have to charge because that's about the amount it costs to print a POD book.
The only reason I know any of this is because I work both sides of the fence. I heavily promote my freelance business as a cover artist and designer. However, I'm also VP of a traditional publishing house. So I see the expenses and profit margins from both sides.
So the original question seems to have been lost, or the thread has evolved in a different direction. I love the question, because although my books tracked in the top 3% of Kindle sales on Amazon for a minute (maybe a minute and a half!) the deluge of self-published authors makes it not just about competition, but visibility. Any thoughts on that? How do we (independently published authors) improve the visibility of our books to those who might read them? Without breaking the bank?
Tom wrote: "How do we (independently published authors) improve the visibility of our books to those who might read them? Without breaking the bank?..."Well, the most helpful thing I've found is soliciting reviews. It takes a lot of time and effort, but if you are willing to be gregarious about it, it can definitely help with visibility, especially if you get reviewed by some of the more popular book blogs with a couple hundred/thousand or more subscribers.
At the risk of just adding to the noise, I think there are two primary reasons people don't read indie books:1) There is some trepidation about quality. While a lot of indie books are well-edited, formatted and written, there's a lot of bad work out there. Without some proof of quality people are reluctant to spend their money. I think the biggest problem, though, is
2) It's almost impossible to know what's out there. With the sheer number of books published, how will people know your book exists. Nobody I've ever met will go 40 screens deep into Amazon to search for a book they've never heard of by an unknown author. If we don't make some noise, our babies will sit unloved.
That's why, as distasteful as it may be, we need to market the heck out of ourselves, support indie authors (if you complain you're not getting read but not reading other independent authors there's some karma headed your way, methinks) and keep up the good fight.
Wayne wrote: "At the risk of just adding to the noise, I think there are two primary reasons people don't read indie books:1) There is some trepidation about quality. While a lot of indie books are well-edited,..."
Good comment Wayne. Most certainly you are right.
I saw a funny blurb yesterday:
"...Jane Doe* is a wildly successful erotic novelist living in a small town that is sexy and kind with a good heart...."
Most indie authors are in the same pit. The ones who write this kind of blurb and other who took dozens of writing courses or at least pay a good editor.
Gisela wrote: "I saw a funny blurb yesterday:"...Jane Doe* is a wildly successful erotic novelist living in a small town that is sexy and kind with a good heart...."
Ahh, those sexy small towns. They'll getcha every time.
Wayne does have good points. I recently read and reviewed a book, per the author's request, that I discovered had not been edited prior to publishing. When I mentioned it to the author, he said that as an indie author, he didn't have the funds for it. I get that, I do. But that statement tells me a couple things. First of all, the book isn't ready. Plain and simple, if you don't have it edited, then wait to publish it. Make friends with people who are eagle-eyed (and who know editing rules), save your money for months, work out a payment plan with an understanding editor—whatever it takes. Just don't publish it until it's ready. As an indie author, your timetable is your own. Yes, you want to get that book out there NOW, but if it's not ready, you'll begin your career with quality that isn't as high as it should be, and most people won't bother to read your next book. That kind of thing also tells me that you don't think it matters to readers whether a book is done properly or not, simply because it's self-published. But it does matter, and they do care, especially if they're spending money on it. I wrote a blog post a while back called "The Reader Doesn't Care," and it deals with exactly this. Readers don't care if you wrote it for a year or ten years, barefoot in the dead of winter, typing uphill both ways. They just want a finished product that's actually finished, or they won't bother.
And that goes right along with Wayne's second point about getting noticed. You really have to get out there and promote consistently, because nobody has the time or energy to slog through the hundreds of new titles that flow through. Simply listing your book here and expecting that the world should see it and want it isn't enough. Readers have to care, either because what you've written is so relevant they can't ignore it, or because they've gotten to know you through social media and trust that you're putting out something good, or because your book is so well written that people are creating a buzz. It's a tough market!
I agree about the quality issue. I've had a few awkward moments myself facing an author who has spent thousands of dollars on a book that just makes me cringe. The only feedback they've ever gotten is from friends and family who are afraid of hurting their feelings. I also agree with the volume. It's disheartening, but then again, how many haven't walked a mile on the beach, passing truck loads of sand, for a few shells worth finding. That's my only hope now.
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I really don't know where you get your information, but I have not paid near what you are saying. Nothing close to that. You can believe what you have heard are you can take my word for it since I have worked with them for the past three years. I have my contracts and what the fee was. It wasn't very much over what it would have cost if I had done every step myself. Editing. Page design. Cover art. Copyright. Bar code. And on and on. Oh, and all of the time that all entails. What is the difference between using someone like Page and doing every step yourself? Nothing. It all works out the same. Also, if because I use Page makes me hungry to publish, what is different than anyone who self-publishes? Once again I find myself defending me or in this case Page. Again I say this is not what I got in this discussion for.
I will add that what ever anyone has to do to publish, however they accomplish it, it gets your name out there until you reach your goal with publishing what ever that may be. That is what I am doing.