Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
H.M. wrote: "Kay, please do give it a look. I've actually heard very good things about Electrik Inc. It would be wonderful to get some feedback..."H.M., what you’re doing is commendable. But let me gently suggest that if you alone are listing books you like on your site, you’ll end up with nothing more than a version of a Goodreads shelf loaded with your preferences.
I’ve talked about the problem of bias before on some thread or other (might even have been this one). Everyone is 100% biased, like it or not. The way you’re going about it, only users with your biases will find your site useful. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that, but your choices will have far more credence and a much wider reader appeal if you bring in other reviewers/vetters, preferably people who do not share your taste in reading material.
Just a thought…
Absolutely expose the bad stuff, Linda. If H.M.'s brave enough, perhaps the site could include a Hall of Shame. :-O
Moonlight Reader wrote: "I'm done.Good luck getting readers."
I'm sorry to hear that. You must have had a lot of bad experiences. I've just recently learned how awful some writers can be to reviewers. I wish there was a
place where readers could post their bad experiences to warn others away from that writer.
Hopefully, your reading experience will be more pleasurable. You won't have to worry about how to frame your words so no one attacks. Just relax and enjoy your reading experience. (There are writers who appreciate honest reviewers and are grateful for readers like you.)
H.M. wrote: "Kay, please do give it a look. I've actually heard very good things about Electrik Inc. It would be wonderful to get some feedback..."Another thing that might be useful, H.M., is having a discussion about each book rather than solely a review, and by that I mean taking opposing viewpoints of at least two people and dissecting the content, with each person listing what they liked and didn't, and why. (I'm not talking about grammar and punctuation; those are either right or wrong, although you should mention them if a book is full of errors.) Your site's users would benefit because what one person likes, another might not, and it would help them make a judgment about the book's worth.
Linda wrote: "And let's all give author and newly crowned Queen of the Net Nannies a round of applause for pissing of so many readers with one blog post.https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"
There is so much logic fail in that post and her subsequent comments I just can't go there. Throwing your hat into the ring over something you haven't vetted, haven't researched, have no background on, and really don't understand is just so misguided.
After reading that I realized it isn't just self-published authors that behave badly. Ego and emotion, a deadly combination.
OMG. Unprofessional must be this chick's middle name.
When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not?I think she got an answer to her question. Irony is the name of the game.
C.M.J. wrote: "When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not?I think she got an answer to her question. Irony is the name of the game."She did make a couple of reasonable points, along with a bunch of unreasonable ones, but no, the whole thing clearly wasn't very well thought out.
Formatting issues..ugh..I struggled with those and did not realise that my first Kindle attempt was riddled with issues until a kind reviewer pointed it out to me (and she still gave me a good review even with all the issues). I fixed, checked, fixed, checked, and fixed until I finally got it right! I don't pay attention to formatting errors in other works, though I am less likely to spend money on a book that has issues (the story would have to blow me away). What turns me off of books - either self-published or Big Three - is the writing. I read a sample of a Kindle Best Seller Romance where the Hero said things like "you belong to me" - which, to me, is creepy, not romantic. However, I know I am a minority in this. And I could put up with this little thing had the author had no sense of place. But as a reader...do I try self-published authors? Yes. Do I care if they are bestsellers? No. Do I read reviews and base my judgement off of them? No. I read the sample. If I like it, I buy it. If I really like it, I'll read other things from same author.
Linda wrote: "And let's all give author and newly crowned Queen of the Net Nannies a round of applause for pissing of so many readers with one blog post.https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"
You think that's bad, read her comments here.
Executive Summary: Dumbass author goes on writers' message board to proclaim that he's going to sue an Amazon reviewer for giving him a one star review. Someone on the board blogs about it, saying, "Hey, authors, don't be dumbasses." Bunch of people from the board, including our dear Ms. Casey, berate him for siding with reviewers over fellow authors who should always be supportive of each other.
Sean O'Hara wrote: "Linda wrote: "And let's all give author and newly crowned Queen of the Net Nannies a round of applause for pissing of so many readers with one blog post.https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"
Umm...wtf? How about not siding with the dumbasses?
Salem wrote: "I read a sample of a Kindle Best Seller Romance where the Hero said things like "you belong to me" - which, to me, is creepy, not romantic. However, I know I am a minority in this. And I could put up with this little thing had the author had no sense of place."I reviewed a Romantic Suspense novel, where I came on the following description:
His mind went blank. All he could think of was the taste and softness of her lips. Deepening his assault, his tongue...
And I thought, "Deepening his assault? This is not a rape scene, it's supposed to be romantic. What is 'assault' doing in there?"
Sean O'Hara wrote: "Linda wrote: "And let's all give author and newly crowned Queen of the Net Nannies a round of applause for pissing of so many readers with one blog post.https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"
Oh wow, I have seen that blog post but didn't immediately connect the comments there with her blog. So much for just not thinking through something properly and making a one time misguided statement.
C.M.J. wrote: "[Elle Casey wrote:] 'When we’re upset with someone, we pause for a moment to reflect: should I say that or not?'I think she got an answer to her question. Irony is the name of the game."
Linda wrote: There should be some kind of prize awarded just for that observation.
I couldn't believe Ms. Casey wrote that question and then went ahead and did what she did, but at least I got a chuckle out of it!
BTW, I should have put her question in quotes. Corrected here for clarification.
Thanks, Jackie, for ARC explanation! Yes, journalism helps us with the nuts and bolts. Now, if I can just find a way to make a fantastic creation out of them! :)Yes, HM, I will definitely be in touch with eliteindiereads soon. Glad you've heard good things about Electrik Inc.
CMJ – I like your ideas re reviewing sites. I agree especially with getting two different viewpoints. It shows a dedication to honest and fair reviewing and I think would help the reader as well as the writer.
One of the reasons I think Electrik Inc works so well is each of our novels is guaranteed a thorough going over by two editors and one marketing professional. Completely different views on plot progression can make for very animated and fun meetings! :)
Kay wrote: "CMJ – I like your ideas re reviewing sites. I agree especially with getting two different viewpoints. It shows a dedication to honest and fair reviewing and I think would help the reader as well as the writer."Discrepant viewpoints are the best solution I can think of in regard to dealing with bias in book panning. Partiality can’t be eliminated, but it can be alleviated.
H.M., you might want to consider doing discussions for traditionally published books as well because there are real lemons in that bunch too…but I could be biased about that. :)
C.M.J. wrote: "Kay wrote: "CMJ – I like your ideas re reviewing sites. I agree especially with getting two different viewpoints. It shows a dedication to honest and fair reviewing and I think would help the reade..."The only problem I see as a reader is that the discussion would probably have spoilers. I don't read anything that has spoilers. I try not to even read too much of the description of a book because it sometimes gives things away. (I don't watch TV previews of next week's show either. I don't think it's just me.)
Linda wrote: "And let's all give author and newly crowned Queen of the Net Nannies a round of applause for pissing of so many readers with one blog post.https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"
Ah, the comments on that blog have been frozen, that's why i could not comment. I was about to say if You do anything online with this thought providing the impetus: “Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll show her…” or “I’m going to teach this person a lesson…” makes you a troll, then I guess I am a troll: I can not claim that I have never made a comment on someones base stupidity with that impetus in mind. Oh dear me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gN2h...
Bonnie wrote: "Kay wrote: CMJ – I like your ideas re reviewing sites. I agree especially with getting two different viewpoints. It shows a dedication to honest and fair reviewing and I think would help the reade..."Bonnie wrote: "The only problem I see as a reader is that the discussion would probably have spoilers. I don't read anything that has spoilers. I try not to even read too much of the description of a book because it sometimes gives things away. (I don't watch TV previews of next week's show either. I don't think it's just me.)"
H.M., take note of what Bonnie said. If you decide to use some type of discussion format, spoilers would be a real problem. You'd either have to have warnings or a way to hide them; otherwise, people who don't like them would find your site irritating rather than helpful.
PS: Maybe you should start a thread dedicated to getting feedback about your site.
I just thought I'd share this with you all. I was browsing in another group and came across this author whose looking to be interviewed for his works. Curious, I looked at his works and get this...He's written 85 books, 81 to which have been published between 2012-2014. A lot of them are really short and others are full books but I was shocked when I saw this. I guess some people like publishing everything they write??
Justin wrote: "I just thought I'd share this with you all. I was browsing in another group and came across this author whose looking to be interviewed for his works. Curious, I looked at his works and get this......"I publish pretty much everything I write, as long as I've finished it anyway. I bet I'm not the only one, and I could see if you've been doing it for years and have a long, long backlog of stuff that's never seen the light of day...
If they're really short, can they really be called books? Stories, perhaps. But ebooks are just ebooks, there's no separate term for e-novellas or e-short stories. Do the shorter pieces cost less? I would hope he's not charging $6.99 for a hundred words.It is possible of course that he's had this trunk full of stuff written over the past ump years, and now that there's Kindle and Amazon he's just pumping it all out on line.
Brenda wrote: "If they're really short, can they really be called books? Stories, perhaps. But ebooks are just ebooks, there's no separate term for e-novellas or e-short stories. Do the shorter pieces cost less? ..."It's the rapture of the trunk novels.
Bonnie wrote: "Moonlight Reader wrote: "I'm done....
I'm sorry to hear that. You must have had a lot of bad experiences. I've just recently learned how awful some writers can be to reviewers. I wish there was a
place where readers could post their bad experiences to warn others away from that writer. ..."
Huh. Guess you somehow missed all the brouhaha.
Readers did--right here on GR until last September. Then GR did an abrupt 180--w/o any notice--and decided that members could no longer to name their shelves however they wished. Or more accurately, couldn't have shelves, or post comments, regarding 'author behaviour'.
Pure speculation b/c I have no stats, but imagine that even more readers stopped considering new authors--SPA or otherwise--w/o this tiny safety net.
See Feedback thread @ www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1517130-...
As someone newly entering the realm of the Kindle, I haven't really had a preference so far. As long as the story is there, I'll give it a shot, especially with things like Bookbub letting me know what's going on sale. My budget is extremely tight, so I can't really drop $20-$30 on a brand new hardback book at Barnes and Noble every week.That said, I will echo that the quality of self-published books is... an acquired taste, I guess? Again, as long as the stories are there, I'll read it. But, even professional, independent editors you can hire online have a different approach than the Big Book editors that do this all day, every day, and know how the best stories flow and change. It shows in the writing, and it can be jarring for someone who is deeply involved with traditionally published books to make the jump to read self-published works.
That said, I just enjoy a good book, and self-publishing is an exciting world to see grow. It's like any other online art site: there's a lot of junk and the best stuff will sift its way to the top. The big difference is on the authors' ends, the royalties they see, and the ease they can get their word out.
Self-pub has seen a big boom the past five years, but I think it'll become even bigger yet over the next decade.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Huh. Guess you somehow missed all the brouhaha."I seem to have also missed all the brouhaha, well I had 'better' things to do in September (a sad time for me personally). But if this was really what it has come to concerning reviews of SPA books - I suspect it is a bit overblown - I at least will not be reading any in the future, or hardly any, because without some critical reviews the tide of crap will just overwhelm my ability to choose.
removed link. edit
Tura wrote: "I seem to have also missed all the brouhaha, well I had 'better' things to do in September (a sad time for me personally). But if this was really what it has come to concerning reviews of SPA books - I suspect it is a bit overblown - I at least will not be reading any in the future, or hardly any, because without some critical reviews the tide of crap will just overwhelm my ability to choose. ..."Not sure what you mean by 'overblown' (or to what you actually referred) but last September seemed to be a tipping point in a long series of unflattering events re: discrete segment of authors, SPAs or not.
As for the current 'brouhaha' re: a certain petition, IMVHO, the originator and those supporting her are, to put it crudely, pissing in the wind. And whilst I shouldn't be amazed (yet again) at the lack of logic, I am. *smh*
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Tura wrote: "I seem to have also missed all the brouhaha, well I had 'better' things to do in September (a sad time for me personally). But if this was really what it has come to concerning reviews..."I just mean overblown. Not all critical reviews have been removed, not all reviews are by sockpuppets, but issues (in any field) do generally get exaggerated, especially when they are emerging. Still, if people really start to remove critical reviews en masse like the Moonlight Reader says in her blog, and some commenters on that page too, then what would be the point of reading reviews after that?
Tura wrote: "Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Tura wrote: "I seem to have also missed all the brouhaha, well I had 'better' things to do in September (a sad time for me personally). But if this was really what it has co..."It would be great if you could remove the link to my booklikes blog from this thread, since I have no interest in being your poster child for whatever point it is that you are trying to make.
Thanks.
Oh and yes that Anne Rice petition - no. There is already requirements to register and so on, so if you post something really illegal, like libel or death threats, you can be tracked down. I don't know of any newspapers or magazines online for example that would require real name comments, while some have stopped allowing comments altogether, and most either post- or pre-moderate. Making it a requirement to publish your name would seriously hamper any sort of critical discussions, on any forum.
Tura wrote: "Oh and yes that Anne Rice petition - no. There is already requirements to register and so on, so if you post something really illegal, like libel or death threats, you can be tracked down. I don't ..."I'm surprised that Anne Rice gives a crap what people have to say about her work...
Tura wrote: "...Making it a requirement to publish your name would seriously hamper any sort of critical discussions, on any forum."That wasn't my point. And I personally don't agree w/ this view but... *shrug*
ETA: Also had different point re: last September. But I've learned to bang my head against the wall only a few times. :)
Tura wrote: "Oh and yes that Anne Rice petition - no. There is already requirements to register and so on, so if you post something really illegal, like libel or death threats, you can be tracked down. I don't ..."Thank you. :0)
Jen wrote: "I'm surprised that Anne Rice gives a crap what people have to say about her work... ..."She's expected to reveal a new book tomorrow. So a lot of "buzz," posts, forums, petitions or any other activity to amp up the publicity train.
That's the recent news.
Old news is years of posts on her social media, amazon forums, various blogs, etc. if you are curious about Ms. Rice and reviewer relations,
Generally, she's the poster for, hey, it is not just indie authors versus reviewers because Anne Rice is traditionally published ...
Bonnie, I agree, you're not the only one who doesn't want to know information on a film or book in advance. My husband drives me MAD when we're watching films, by refusing to tell me what it's about and we scuffle like five year olds over the remote while I try and press the 'info' button. So yes, I take your point. Different readers need different types of review.
LOL. My husband warns me. I cover my ears, close my eyes, and hum while he either watches the preview or fast forwards.I like to be surprised by a story. Since I've read/watched so many, that's hard to do.
Tura wrote: "Making it a requirement to publish your name would seriously hamper any sort of critical discussions, on any forum."People are so up their high horses about that whole "bullying" thing that they forget one simple little thing: privacy. I'm not ashamed of my reviews or of what I read... but I still don't want a recruiter to Google my name and see that I read MxM romance (or whatever other kind of stories gets that person to think "oh, it's THAT kind of woman, hm, guess I'll see if a better candidate doesn't show up"). (Yes, they're not supposed to be biased like that, but let's acknowledge we're not living in CareBears Land.)
Tura wrote: "Oh and yes that Anne Rice petition - no. There is already requirements to register and so on, so if you post something really illegal, like libel or death threats, you can be tracked down. I don't ..."On the contrary,Tura, my experience has been that when in writing workshops or book readings/discussions, everyone participating and critiquing sees everyone else's face, and knows exactly who they are. Everyone maintains professionalism and honesty (sometimes brutal, but still honest).
That's not to say it doesn't get emotional or heated. But it doesn't get vindictive the way it so often can when someone is hiding behind a mask on a forum. Sometimes it's a bit too much like the KKK for me. I think if bullies were made to show their names and faces, a lot of them wouldn't be so keen to verbally beat up someone they disagree with. The disagreeing is fine, but abuse isn't. I'm not in any way suggesting you've done this – not at all – just that, for me, critical discussions are hampered more by the masked trolls than they ever are by the honest reviewers. And the requirement to show proven names would annihilate thousands of sock puppets overnight.
Bonnie wrote: "LOL. My husband warns me. I cover my ears, close my eyes, and hum while he either watches the preview or fast forwards.I like to be surprised by a story. Since I've read/watched so many, that's h..."
Your husband sounds like a very reasonable man! I'll mention that to mine while I beat him about the head with the remote later on tonight. :)
This is an interesting perspective and serves to show how several different, intelligent people can have different perspectives on the same issue. Do I care who reviews my work? No. As mentioned, if there is a legal issue I would have legal recourse. Of course, this is from the perspective of a neophyte who has few reviews to speak of.
Can I imagine how it would feel to have people cursing me, so angry at my creation that they voice horrible thoughts and motives? Maybe. I don't like the thought. It would feel strange, like a creation running away from the creator (lots of stories about that!), but I don't know what my reaction would be.
It is shown that anonymity increases a person's willingness to say/do things they would not otherwise. Is this a problem?
It can be said that demanding real names will prevent legitimately critical reviews. It can also be said that people with legitimate reviews weren't going to be targeted, and what do they have to fear? I don't like that last, because that sounds like poor investigative technique. Freedom should be paramount, I think.
But others may think differently.
Linda wrote: "@Kay --I think a very major point that's lost in this whole (rather absurd, imho) discussion of "real names" is that it's mostly authors who are demanding real names of the reviewers, and that th..."
EXCELLENT! I can handle negative reviews just fine. I'm emotionally healthy enough to separate my sense of self from someone's opinion of my work. However, I feel far more tension when I write a critical review even though I haven't been attacked. To be honest, though, I have not posted reviews of work I didn't finish because it was terrible.
Wow. Thank you, Linda! A truly educational post, and I found myself nodding at all your points. You see, THIS is why I like debate. :) What I had not realised – and am appalled to read from yours and other posts – is how great the divide seems to be between reviewers and authors. Christ, it's like a war zone out there.I joined GR last October, but started trying to be more active about a week ago... and this has really opened my eyes. As someone who is very likely to give a negative review to work I genuinely thought was poor (just as I'd give 5 stars to work I loved), I would probably find myself facing the same kind of flak you have. So, yes, I can now understand why a reviewer would not want their identity revealed. It has never occurred to me to hide behind an avatar when giving my opinion (though I had one once, for fun, on a writing site) and I've always mistrusted those who did. Thank you for going a long way towards changing my mind.
But it all leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth. If writers don't want bad reviews they shouldn't post their work. If they're bullying reviewers, their work should be pulled. Equally, if a reviewer is vindictive, they should be turfed off the site – there's absolutely no reason, or excuse, for being vile and hurtful. This all makes me wonder if it's worth posting work at all? It does sound as if a lot of people are very angry with authors – and that won't help. Maybe the days of reviewing are waning. It would certainly piss me off to spend so much of my time reading and reviewing something (for nothing) and then getting hounded for it.
And no, no, no – I absolutely don't believe at all that criticism should be silenced. Only through having my work criticised (albeit in a civilised way) have I learned to recognise my weaknesses. Yes, it hurts. Always. But the work comes out the other side of the rewrite stronger, and that's what matters. I have learned one rule of thumb, though, in my dealings with many creative people (art departments, picture desks, editors...) the biggest egos are seldom attached to the strongest talent. The writers I know who think their work is exceptional (or too clever for us normal mortals to 'get') are usually the ones who need the heaviest editing.
And yes, I think you're probably right about the sock puppets, too. I'm not on any 'side' with regard to the Anne Rice debate (I haven't read it – just seen it mentioned here), but I agree reviewers should be allowed to give their honest opinions (without rancour or personal attacks) and have them stand.
Although, maybe I'll feel different if someone slates Treasure This and gives me one star... :(
As mentioned earlier, the whole issue of reviews is under threat because so many are bogus. Any ideas of what could take their place? Or do we just hope the moderators have time to read every single one... God, this is depressing. I was right. I should stuck with the dog walking... :)
So glad I can put away my Kevlar jacket and stow the hand grenades and Uzi back under the bed... ;) But I'll remember to be very tactful when I put my reviewing hat on. Good luck with the art show – sounds like fun – and the 250 novels!
And maybe it's me, but I haven't heard of the writers mentioned in the advertisement.
Chris Guillebeau? Jeff Goins? Jenny Blake?
Jeff Goins sounds a little familiar, but maybe just because it resembles some other Jeff. Now,Chris Guillebeau
Jeff GoinsJenny Blake
Well at least they are recognised here, of course Jenny Blake is a rather common name, I cannot go and swear that is the same person.
Linda wrote: "Kay wrote: "Wow. Thank you, Linda! A truly educational post, and I found myself nodding at all your points. You see, THIS is why I like debate. :) What I had not realised – and am appalled to read..."These authors who are signing this petition to get reviewers to review under their real names, are they going to, in turn, stop releasing novels under pen names?
You know, I used to be a big reader of everything, indie and traditionally published from the Big 6. I would read basically anything and enjoy it, as well as classics and I was just all over the place. The last year, though, has kind of changed that for me. I'm only reading small-press or self-published books, with a few exceptions for authors that I like. But King, Koontz, Patterson... no, I can't. Sadly, I just find their stuff too repetitive. I like to be shocked by a book, and I like that book to be not 1000 pages. I may be picky, but I still go back and read the classic books, and I still try to like Big 6 books. For instance, I enjoyed The Girl on the Train. But the second book by that author... not so much.
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I usually really enjo..."
Well, I certainly haven't paid for any! I got some off an R4R program (DBML in the M/M group) but that's not the same thing, particularly since I deliberately picked one where the readers go to the program coordinator, not to me, and it was extremely clear that reviewers were completely free to write what they wished. And no, they didn't all like the books! Those reviews were posted here, too, and I think to B&N.
That's an exception though, because I'm normally very, very suspicious of review swaps. I'll occasionally offer a review copy to someone I know, with the proviso that they should feel free to pan the book if they don't like it.