Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "There's no harm in anyone writing, but I don't understand how some people don't seem to recognize that what they are putting out there bears little resemblance to what most of us expect from a published book. Then they are shocked when it isn't well-received."I don't know how they do it. I post a drawing, and two weeks later I already think it's the worst piece of crap on Earth, and want to bury it forever. Same with my writing. Someday I'll have to really let it out, but I doubt I'll ever be fully satisfied.
Well, at least I'm ready for criticism, I suppose: reviewers can't be harsher than I already am on myself. ;)
C.M.J. wrote: "Chuck wrote: "Can anyone name any exclusively self-published authors that have made any serious money?"Yes, Chuck. This is from http://bookmarketingbuzz.com/2011/08/......"
Thank ya!
Wow! That's pretty surprising, to me. I'm surprised it can be done at all with the Internet and piracy being what it is.
Richard wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Jen wrote: "some people don't seem to recognize that what they are putting out there bears little resemblance to what most of us expect from a published book. "But this is fairly we..."
It may have been me who pointed to the Dunning-Krueger effect. I have a habit of doing that.
I would also add the corollary to the Dunning-Krueger effect, which I like the call the Rule of Outrage Disproportionality: the lower the quality of the writing/product, the more outraged the author often is at a negative review. The better the work product, the more likely it is that the author is going to react to a negative review with unflappability and aplomb.
And it is not like there aren't other outlets for people who want to write. Start a blog, and pour out your effusions about your dog, or your love life, or whatever. Absolutely fine! Just don't call it a book and expect people to treat it like THE WAPSHOT CHRONICLES or WAR AND PEACE.
Brenda wrote: "And it is not like there aren't other outlets for people who want to write. Start a blog, and pour out your effusions about your dog, or your love life, or whatever. Absolutely fine! Just don't cal..."And don't expect them to PAY for it.
And don't urge people who paid for your 'book' to send you corrections so that you can issue another 'edition'.
Brenda wrote: "And don't urge people who paid for your 'book' to send you corrections so that you can issue another 'edition'."Ha! Well, no, no, don't do that.
Brenda wrote: "And don't urge people who paid for your 'book' to send you corrections so that you can issue another 'edition'."Oh that is so annoying! I got asked by a SP author once to provide her all of my feedback so that she could make the next book better and maybe edit this one. Um, excuse me...I'm not your beta reader or editor, it's not my job to improve your craft.
Stefani wrote: "Brenda wrote: "And don't urge people who paid for your 'book' to send you corrections so that you can issue another 'edition'."Oh that is so annoying! I got asked by a SP author once to provide h..."
Was that part of an R4R deal? (I'm not thinking it should have been, by the way.)
No, I have never done one of those. (I am one of the never-reads-reviews authors, so what I review on GR I actually want to review, and all reviews of my works are from people I know nothing of and have no dealings with so far as I know.) I have merely heard well-founded and justifiable complaints like those of Linda and Stefani. Clearly wrong and a totally bad idea -- what are you going to do with all the people who bought the first edition, send them a corrected #2? Or are they expected to pay for the second edition as well as the first? I would be beyond furious to be treated this way.
Gregor wrote: "Was that part of an R4R deal? (I'm not thinking it should have been, by the way.) "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it looked interesting, it was atrocious and so I wrote a review. And got a personal message from the author asking me to stop being mean and be more constructive so they could improve. Asked me if I would edit it for them as a favor. I laughed so hard I nearly gave myself a hernia.
Chuck wrote: "C.M.J. wrote: "Chuck wrote: "Can anyone name any exclusively self-published authors that have made any serious money?"Yes, Chuck. This is from http://bookmarketingbuzz.com/2011/08/......"
You're welcome!
I was surprised too. I don't know the stats, if any, for piracy's effect on sales. You'll find two schools of thought about that practice, though: that it's free advertising and helps sales and that pirates should be made to walk the plank. I subscribe to the latter.
Stefani wrote: "Gregor wrote: "Was that part of an R4R deal? (I'm not thinking it should have been, by the way.) "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it lo..."
uhhh....
That's uhhh.....
Brenda wrote: "Clearly wrong and a totally bad idea -- what are you going to do with all the people who bought the first edition, send them a corrected #2? Or are they expected to pay for the second edition as well as the first? I would be beyond furious to be treated this way."Well, if you do publish a book and you find a mistake, which you correct, you can upload the new version and ask Amazon to send an email to everyone who ever bought/downloaded your book that an updated version is available.
I wouldn't say it's a wise course to take, but 'shit happens', and I personally know of a (previously trade published) author, who had made some mistakes concerning my hometown (Amsterdam) in one of his recent self-published novels. I provided him with feedback and he pulled the novel, fixed the errors, and republished an updated correct version, which was (of course) provided for free to all previous buyers.
Stefani wrote: "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it looked interesting, it was atrocious and so I wrote a review. And got a personal message from the author asking me to stop being mean and be more constructive so they could improve. Asked me if I would edit it for them as a favor. I laughed so hard I nearly gave myself a hernia."I hope you gave him a virtual spanking!
Richard wrote: "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate."I think it is as likely to be a belief in the self help guide that told them that once you get good reviews the money is bound to roll in.
Martyn V. wrote: "I hope you gave him a virtual spanking! "I sent him a link to buy English Grammar for Dummies. No further comment, just a link. :)
Linda wrote: "Stefani wrote: "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it lo..."LOL -- Nobody sends me ARCs! I mean, NOBODY! ;-)"
I'll send you an ARC of my first romance novel. Promise.
ETA: Keep in mind, I'm not promising to write one. If I do, I'll send the ARC to you.
Linda wrote: "Stefani wrote: "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it lo..."LOL -- Nobody sends me ARCs! I mean, NOBODY! ;-)"
They is scared of the Linda! Scared of the fiery wrath and vengeance and brimstone and such.
I get a lot of mine through Net Galley or Edelweiss, but also quite a bit from requests through my blog. The NG and EW authors tend to behave themselves so I prefer that route sometimes.
Stefani wrote: "Martyn V. wrote: "I hope you gave him a virtual spanking! "I sent him a link to buy English Grammar for Dummies. No further comment, just a link. :)"
Hahaha. You rock!
Linda wrote: "Stefani wrote: "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it lo..."LOL -- Nobody sends me ARCs! I mean, NOBODY! ;-)"
If you like them, I can put you on the list for an ARC for my fourth novel. But then, you might want to read the first three books while I'm writing the fourth...
(Plus, I have no idea if you actually read suspense fiction)
I will gladly send anyone a free PDF copy of my books in exchange for a review.
Linda wrote: "LOL -- Nobody sends me ARCs! I mean, NOBODY! ;-)"All I can picture is Mr. T, saying, "I pity the fool who sends Linda Hilton an ARC."
Lynda wrote: "All I can picture is Mr. T, saying, "I pity the fool who sends Linda Hilton an ARC.""I don't know. I enjoy being reviewed by critical readers.
Stefani wrote: "Gregor wrote: "Was that part of an R4R deal? (I'm not thinking it should have been, by the way.) "Nope. It wasn't even an ARC that I got for review or anything. I paid for this book because it lo..."
You should've offered to do it at your going rate. $10 a page, let us say.
If you are giving it away just to give away, fine. It can be garbage. However, in theory the giveaway is supposed to be a free sample. Enticing you to buy the next one. And if it IS garbage, then it is clearly failing to attract and keep a customer.
The first appearance of the work is like virginity -- it has value. Or like being a debutante at your first ball. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Peeve me, and I won't come back. So if you want a CAREER, then your freebie had better not be crap.
Brenda wrote: "The first appearance of the work is like virginity -- it has value. Or like being a debutante at your first ball. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Peeve me, and I won't come back. So if you want a CAREER, then your freebie had better not be crap."I follow that line of thought, also. So many of the not-great self-published authors never give a thought to their future sales. I won't be back to see how much you've "improved" if your first effort is awful. Why should I? If you ever want me to buy more than one book from you, the first one has to count.
Linda wrote: " A lot of them are, and I think the percentage goes higher still in the freebies. I also think a lot of the authors who are publishing stuff and then giving it away for free via Smashwords and Kindle subscribe to the notion that because it's free, they don't have to put out a quality product."I had this insane idea (haHA) that people might be more easily persuaded to try something if it's free. So what I did is I wrote a few short stories that serve as loss-leader samples.
Similar to getting a taste of a new product at the supermarket. You know, someone going around with a tray with hummus on toast, urging you to try the hummus with red beets in it. Something you might never consider to buy if you have to buy a whole package.
Now, if the snack they provide you with tastes like someone just vomited into your mouth, you'd never try anything by that producer again. In fact, you might swear of hummus as something vile and horrid, while the producer might just have messed up and the hummus in itself is not to blame. In fact, hummus is quite easy to screw up.
So, I produce an excellent hummus, but since your palate has already been spoiled by the horrid hummus provided to you by all the other producers who claimed their hummus was excellent and tasty, how do I convince you that my hummus is actually different from theirs? By not offering it for free? By putting it on a silver platter held aloft by supermodels, both male and female, to give my hummus some cachet? By advertising my hummus in a lifestyle magazine that would persuade you that without my hummus your life would be bereft of the exquisite experience of having my particular concoction tickle your taste buds?
I can't. If you decide never to try hummus again, I can make the most delicious hummus in the world, but I won't be able to count you as a customer.
Mercia wrote: "Jen wrote: "H.M., I'm doing the very same thing, here on GR. I have a group (The Source) that strives not only to promote the great books out there, but also give readers a safe place to discuss th..."That sounds good! I will check it out! Thanks!
Lynda wrote: "Brenda wrote: "The first appearance of the work is like virginity -- it has value. Or like being a debutante at your first ball. You only get one chance to make a first impression. Peeve me, and I ..."I'm more tolerant of the free than I am of things I've actually paid money for. And if I have shelled out $7.99 for what reads like an unedited draft of a book that I would have enjoyed a lot if it had actually been a finished product, I'm going to be cranky. That happened to me recently, and I actually returned it, although I felt a little guilty.
I do well with my freebies, and I always see a bump in sales after I have a KDP free promo, but I know that's not necessarily everyone's experience. Most of my titles are .99-2.99 and I think that "just a little more than free" helps move them after a promo.
Very interesting topic. I'm new to the boards and it's interesting to read about changes that have affected GR and how some feel about self publishing. I have no idea what ARC means, but I agree there are too many very bad self published books out there. Sadly, though, I think there are also a lot of very bad (or just plain boring)traditionally published books.☺ :)I worked in journalism for years and am a trained editor, so I know poor prose when I see it. When traditional publishing fell off a cliff about 2007/2008 (just after I took an MA in writing for young people. Oh yeah, I know all about bad timing too ☺) a lot of writers who probably would have made it to the mid-lists weren't taken on, because no one had the budgets to take risks (I'm not including myself in this but I know a few excellent writers who were told this). Those writers who were taken on saw advances and royalties cut to the bone and have been expected to produce more and more copy for less money (blogs, tweets, GR, websites, two books a year instead of one).
Some writers, understandably, turned away from this treadmill. Not to put down traditional publishing, but because we preferred another way. Some – me included – joined forces with a few other editorial and marketing professionals and founded collectives for independent publishing. We assess our ms (brutally; it’s not an easy ride), suggest rewrites, line edit the rewrites, and proofread and proofread… and then independently publish our own work. The collective I’m part of is Electrik Inc (electrikinc.wordpress.com), but I know there are others like us out there, who want to publish their own work as professionally as possible. I believe there can be – and is – excellence in independent publishing as well as the trashy badly written stuff we all deplore. I believe we owe it to our readers to give them the best quality for their money, and our Electrik Inc logo guarantees that.
I think sites such as the one mentioned above by H M at eliteindiereads will be invaluable (I’m going to check it out), and is definitely the way to go – that, and independent publishing logos you can trust, as well as places like GoodReads. And yes, I think it should be okay for anyone to say if a novel is badly edited, full of typos or badly written. I wouldn’t mind if anyone said they didn’t like my novel – that’s absolutely subjective and is fair enough. But I don’t think they could say it was full of typos.
I also agree with everyone about the reviews system, esp on Amazon. There are whole industries churning them out, not only for some indie authors who can afford it, but certainly for some publishing houses too. They’re all at it. The best guide might be to read the excerpts offered by Amazon and judge for yourself. I’ve had a few very nice reviews on Amazon, but there’s one from someone I don’t know, which is very kind, but vague. I can tell they haven’t read the book – they’re just being nice to me. Well, that’s great but you know, I’d rather they’d read the damn thing and given it a 3 or a 4, and some genuine feedback, than not read it and give it a 5. Bottom line is – Indies aren’t going to go away. We just have to give them a recognisable flag of excellence that readers can trust. All this, of course, is just my opinion. :) ☺
I agree with Kay, for what it's worth :)
Kay wrote: "Very interesting topic. I'm new to the boards and it's interesting to read about changes that have affected GR and how some feel about self publishing. I have no idea what ARC means, but I agree th..."Kay, please do give it a look. I've actually heard very good things about Electrik Inc. It would be wonderful to get some feedback.
A blog from Lee Goldberg about self-publishing:http://www.leegoldberg.com/self-publi...
And look what I found. First I've ever heard of it but it should be a good place to start to find some quality self-published books:
http://www.indiebookawards.com/awards...
Richard wrote: "Brenda wrote: "However, in theory the giveaway is supposed to be a free sample. "Hmm, really? I'd say that depends on who you are and what you're doing. No? ..."
No. Simply b/c there are no obligations on the part of giveaway winners--not to read the book won, much less to review it.
Your reply points to an apparent misconception held by some authors--namely, that giveaway winners are obligated to read and review each and every book won. Needless to say, they are not happy to find out otherwise, which results in some interesting Feedback threads. :(
GR Givaways have always confused me. Someone once told me that by marking the book to-read, you increase your chances to win(which I don't believe or see how it could) and your right there is no guarantee that the person will read it let alone leave a review. I personaly like to enter giveaways where they are giving away numerous copies, I feel as though 50 copies to 1000 people is clear better odds then 1 copy to 500 people.
Linda wrote: "I think I'm going to set up a website for author-published books to avoid.........."Unfortunately might be way too many to list!
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Richard wrote: "Brenda wrote: "However, in theory the giveaway is supposed to be a free sample. "Hmm, really? I'd say that depends on who you are and what you're doing. No? ..."
No. Simply b/c ..."
Yeah, the terms actually state that one is not required to review, but only encouraged to do so. It also states, however, that those who do review will likely win more advanced copies. I ALWAYS review books and win TONS of giveaways...so, it seems to be in everyone's best interests.
I know of people who collect free books and never read them. They've got hundreds of unread books. The idea of getting something for free is the attraction, I suppose.
H.M. wrote: "Yeah, the terms actually state that one is not required to review, but only encouraged to do so. It also states, however, that those who do review will likely win more advanced copies. I ALWAYS review books and win TONS of giveaways...so, it seems to be in everyone's best interests."'Best interest' is besides the point. Whatever algorithm GR uses for giveaways (which I'm sure at this point incorporates some sort of win-to-review ratio), the fact is that there is no definitive obligation to do anything after the win.
Which was Brenda's original point: '...in theory the giveaway is supposed to be a free sample'.
But Richard's reply seemed to imply otherwise--which merely points to faulty perception held by some but not all.
I'm just happy when people download me for free off of Amazon. I know I'm easy to please, but I figure at least some of them must be reading the books.Of course I'm even happier when people buy them...
I'm done.
Good luck getting readers.
Amazon can be so horrible. The people are so aggressive. I never post reviews there, and I try to avoid looking at the reviews for my books there.
Nenia wrote: "Amazon can be so horrible. The people are so aggressive. I never post reviews there, and I try to avoid looking at the reviews for my books there."I usually really enjoy Amazon reviews. Yes, some of them are weird, and I flagged a homophobic one once, but since there's more anonymity that there is here, reviewers really put it out there.
Kay wrote: "Very interesting topic. I'm new to the boards and it's interesting to read about changes that have affected GR and how some feel about self publishing. I have no idea what ARC means, but I agree th..."ARC means "Advanced Reading Copy." It is your book in PDF form mean to give out to reviewers, press, your own copy for your records, etc.
I was a journalist, too! While there is a huge difference between truth and fiction it certainly helps with grammar and syntax and other writing basics.
D.C. wrote: "Nenia wrote: "Amazon can be so horrible. The people are so aggressive. I never post reviews there, and I try to avoid looking at the reviews for my books there."I usually really enjoy Amazon revi..."
I prefer the reviews here. There's a greater sense of community and I find opinions seem to be more honest. So many reviews on Amazon seem as if they've been bought. :/
Linda wrote: "If a writer can't take the time to make sure her book looks like a book, why should I take the time to read it? Nope, not gonna happen."I think one of the main concerns, from author to author, is that many authors don't know what to look for. And that goes especially for formatting and editing. If someone doesn't have the faintest idea what good formatting and editing is even supposed to look like, they sure won't know how to emulate it.
And I despair sometimes, when I get questions from self-published authors who evidently haven't looked into any properly formatted and edited book for years, since it all so obvious. Same with those questions about 'how long should a chapter be?'. I get tempted to answer '2437 words, no more no less'.
And I think the main issue for those of us who are serious about writing and publishing is that we put in the work. We worked at our craft, we submitted our work to disinterested parties who told us our flaws and we work hard to keep improving at our chosen profession. And it's so bloody irksome that there are people who just throw out some word vomit and expect to be viewed as our peers. And if you tell them to go back to school and study the art and craft before publicly humiliating themselves and the profession, you're arrogant and elitist and whatever else they can throw at you.
I read SPA all the time. Sometimes the books are rubbish, but sometimes I find books I think are rubbish and badly written from trad pub houses.Here's my view and advice - get beta readers, get an editor if you can afford it, if you can't look at good quality books, guides and articles and take a writing course. There are free ones which at least point you in the right direction.
Learn from your mistakes and reviews are for readers not authors and not everyone will like your book. Bad reviews happen. If you do read them and they mendtion formatting/editing issues them try and rectify them.
Also buy a style guide - there are some free ones about how to format your book for publication.
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I often think there..."
Well said! I've seen threads that encourage some kind of control over self-publishing, as in a kind of gatekeeper group to prevent the truly awful works from being put out there but I don't think it will ever happen--and perhaps there is an audience even for the unreadable...