Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
>
Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Hey, all, it's all about marketing. There are some truly wonderful self pubs out there, who are professional, well edited and write beautifully. I started a new site for self pub. and indie authors. I choose about four books to read per month, and feature the books I think are good to great (indie and self pub. only). I hope to build the site by adding more great books, so if you know of indie authors or self pubs to nominate, please join my little forum and add your favs. http://eliteindiereads.weebly.com/eir...
And yet another example/answer to question posed by this thread. *smh/turns off notifs*
H.M. wrote: "Hey, all, it's all about marketing. There are some truly wonderful self pubs out there, who are professional, well edited and write beautifully. I started a new site for self pub. and indie authors..."H.M., not trying to offend, but no. It's not about marketing. It's about letting your readers get to know you before shoving a book in their faces and telling them to buy it. I've discovered a lot of cool authors here who never once asked me to buy their books.
Lynda wrote: "A disturbing pattern I've noticed is that none of the tantrum-throwing writers are participants on any of these threads. The only time I've seen their names is when they start tossing around the vitriol, or when they're doing a self-promotion.I keep thinking if they'd only participate a bit, they'd realize that serious authors simply don't behave like...well, I'd say like children, but most children I know behave far better."
I think this is a big part of it. The authors who take the time to participate on GR like normal people rather than jumping in to advertise or to criticize a rating don't seem to have these problems.
Every social networking site has a "culture" to it. It would behoove authors to be aware of that. There are too many who behave as if they've barged into a party full of people they don't know, screamed how great they are at the top of their lungs, and then rushed out the door. Then they are somehow surprised that the people left in the room find their behavior inappropriate.
I think a lot of readers just don't want to take the risk of dropping money on a book when they have no idea if the author will be very good or not. Readers, including myself, would probably spend money on a known author that they know will produce a good book. It has gotten so easy to publish books nowadays that there are tons of terrible books out there - people rush the process and leave a lot of errors in their writing. As a self-published author, you have to make a name for yourself and give out free books to potential readers, etc.Those are just my thoughts, not sure what all of you think!
-Nihar
www.niharsuthar.com
@NiharSuthar
Lynda wrote: "I have 21 Word doc pages of screen shots from last night, and I'm sure it will come as a surprise to no one that the author's comments have mysteriously disappeared.So thankful I saved those clas..."
Woo I missed some entertainment here?
BTW this: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/20... It is relevant as most self-pub is probably sold by Amazon. Also, if you read it to the end there is some harsh truths ;)
Elle wrote: "It seems that either people love to read self-published authors, or they refuse to. Why do you or don't you read self-published authors? Likewise, if you find a book that looks good but you find ou..."I do read self published books and have found many of them better than traditionally published ones. Unfortunately they have had some bad press, because some writers put out rubbish, and the bad reputation unfairly affects all indies. I always read the sample before buying and have never been dissapointed.
Joanna wrote: "I do read self published books and have found many of them better than traditionally published ones."Which ones? I have not found one yet. I mean, well, there are terrible published books of course, but I haven't read a self-pub better than say, an average published book of those that I have read.
Tura wrote: "Joanna wrote: "I do read self published books and have found many of them better than traditionally published ones."Which ones? I have not found one yet. I mean, well, there are terrible publishe..."
Tura, what do you like to read? I'd bet the people here could recommend some great indie books in your genre of choice.
Like Joanna, I always read the sample. I've found some marvelous SPAs that way.
Sarah (Warning: Potentially Off-Topic) wrote: "There are too many who behave as if they've barged into a party full of people they don't know, screamed how great they are at the top of their lungs, and then rushed out the door. Then they are somehow surprised that the people left in the room find their behavior inappropriate."An appropriate comparison, that.
Maybe if those authors spent more time actually interacting (I mean on those topics, or in groups/communities in general, and not simply posting a blog entry and answering its comments), they'd get a broader view on what's being done, what shouldn't be done, what people frown upon, etc. I, for one, have already learnt a lot of things by perusing topics similar to this one—if only the basic "if a negative rating ticks you off, take a deep breath, go away for some time, and DO NOT comment".
Sampling books is often touted by authors as the greatest way to select books in the history of the universe.As a reader, I personally find this to be totally unsatisfactory. One of the reasons that I don't read many SPAs is because the quality is so uneven, and my reading time is quite limited.
It takes time to look up a book, download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book,download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book.
You see my point. If 10% of self-published work is worth reading (and I don't believe that the percentages are this high), it takes me 10 sample reads to find one decent book. In the amount of time I've spent sampling crap, I could've bought a book published by a publisher/author I trust and read a third of it.
I will buy a SP book if it is recommended to me by a friend, however, or if one of my friends gives it a good review and I think the cover & blurb looks promising.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "It takes time to look up a book, download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book,download a sample, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book, read the sample, realize the sample sucks, look up a different book."Yes, that sounds like a lot of work.
I just look at the cover, check if it's anywhere near professional, then read the blurb to see if it holds my interest. If it doesn't, I'm gone. If it does, I'll use the 'Look Inside' feature to check the first page. If it grabs my attention and I find I want to read on after the first page, I either download the sample (if I'm slightly in doubt) or download the book. If the book turns into a horrorshow deeper into the book, I return the book for a refund. And I write a review why I didn't finish the book, since I think it's important for other readers to avoid crap.
Still, most crap doesn't feature a professional cover, an enticing blurb and professional editing and formatting, with an engaging first page.
So I haven't been disappointed much.
I will buy a SP book if it is recommended to me by a friend, however, or if one of my friends gives it a good review and I think the cover & blurb looks promising. That's fair, Moonlight Reader. And probably how many of us find most of the new books/authors we read. But even if a trusted friend has highly recommended a book, I still read the sample and glance over the reviews, for both traditionally published books and indies. Life is too short for bad books.
On the other hand, it seems a pity to dismiss a good book out of hand just because it is independently published. There are lots of reasons why good authors chose to go indie. They may write across genres and the Big Five don't have an imprint to handle that. They may want control over covers, marketing, and distribution. They may just want to keep more of the money their work generates for themselves. Which is not to say there isn't a lot of crap out there, because there is. (rolls eyes) I don't think it's 90% though.
I seldom use the "Look Inside" feature, to be honest. I rely a lot on blurbs (to see what the book's about, of course) and on reviews (usually a mix of different ratings, and only if said reviews are argumented: "DNF - it just wasn't my thing" isn't of much help, even though it's valid). But then, I do that for both self- and traditionally-published books. I can be thoroughly disappointed by a trad as well as by an indie.Covers are usually a good indicator for me, too, pretty much because "having a good cover" is part of all guides about self-publishing, and any author who's checked those enough to know that has likely also read the part about "editing is Very Important". It's not a fool-proof method, but it helps in going through the first level of weeding out.
Hi everyone,I'm fairly new to Goodreads, and have been dipping in and out of this thread for a couple of days. I've read lots of interesting points, and being a SP myself, thought I'd add my two pennyworth.
From a reader's point of view, I read lots of SP fiction and non-fiction. I ALWAYS read the 'look inside' if there is one because the first few pages of any book give a taste of what kind of quality the rest is likely to be, regarding formatting, grammar, spelling, not to mention the quality of story content.
I have been disappointed occasionally, and have even given up on one or two novels that were full of typos or became too long winded, using two pages to say what could have been said in two sentences. However, I have enjoyed more than 75% of SP books I've bought, and returned the really bad ones for a refund.
From an author's point of view, I strive to make my work as professional as possible. Previous comments not only recommend that SP's hire an editor, but suggest that this is essential. Unfortunately many SP's, me included, are not in a financial position to afford this kind of service. I do self-edit my work, but I am as thorough as it is humanly possible to be, taking longer to edit than to write the original manuscript, and I use the latest editing software to help me.
I also design my own covers, but I do have an arts degree in design to support this part of the process.
I like to think that indie authors deserve a break and I will always be willing to give them a go if they pass the initial perusal of their work.
Pearl wrote: "Previous comments not only recommend that SP's hire an editor, but suggest that this is essential. Unfortunately many SP's, me included, are not in a financial position to afford this kind of service."The suggestion is to use an editor. That might be hiring one, but you can also barter services. Or save up for using one. Or, for the extremely lucky ones, like me, to have fans who are editors who support your efforts by editing your work for free.
If you want to publish yourself, you need either deep pockets or be creative in getting people to help you.
Linda wrote: "I think if anyone is still wondering "Why more people don't read self-published authors," the answer is probably in plain sight in the last few posts on this thread:Pearl wrote: I will always b..."
This is excellent. I want to add, though, this:
I am not an unduly picky reader. So, people who have read my post and thought "well, MR, that's because you are completely unreasonable in your expectations," you're wrong.
90% of all that is published in all of the myriad of ways in which stuff can be published is of average quality or worse. I have no problem with a book of average quality. I do not spend my days looking for that rare and elusive shining piece of brilliance. I am happy to read a book that is decently written that tells an interesting story in a reasonably compelling way. "Good" is good enough for me - greatness is not required.
At its most basic level, I am looking for a book that is fun to read. It is not fun to read awkward sentences and ridiculous dialogue. It is not fun to read proofing errors. It is not fun to read books with glaring continuity errors.
Competence is all that I am asking for - brilliance is great when I can find it, but it isn't necessary.
Take, for example, a writer like Courtney Milan. Her books are self-published and priced very reasonably. She writes historical romance that is fun to read. Is she going to receive a Nobel Peace Prize? Ummm, no. But I buy all of her books as soon as they are released because I enjoy them. She provides a fun reading experience.
I don't think I'm unusual. I think that there are some very high level readers who are on a quest for brilliance, but most readers just want to read something that is good enough to enjoy. Most of the self-published books do not reach the level of "good enough."
Also, I am not willing to drop my already quite reasonable standards to support someone who has self-published. If you are, more power to you. I don't consider it a mark of moral virtue to support any specific publishing platform (in fact, if I were going to choose to support a particular platform, it would be the real indies - independent small publishers that compete with the Big 5. It wouldn't be SPA's.)
The average price I spend for an SPA is between $3.99 and $4.99. The average price I spend for a trad or indie pubbed book is $5.99 to $7.99. That price differential, for me, is just not a good enough reason to read substandard work.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "Competence is all that I am asking for - brilliance is great when I can find it, but it isn't necessary."But even that competence is rarely in evidence, thus answering the question in the title of this topic.
And in one sense this is hopeful. Because if you can do it, you are a pearl among a whole bunch of pebbles.
Brenda wrote: "..you are a pearl among a whole bunch of pebbles."Crushed under the plastic sandals of the beach bum.
Pearl wrote: "Hi everyone,...From a reader's point of view, I read lots of SP fiction and non-fiction. I ALWAYS read the 'look inside' if there is one because the first few pages of any book give a taste of what kind of quality the rest is likely to be, regarding formatting, grammar, spelling, not to mention the quality of story content. ..."
Perhaps in the beginning but not so much now. It seems more and more writers have clued into the fact that readers are making use of the 'Look Inside' function. Consequently, it's not uncommon for the first couple of chapters to be relatively clean, technically, whilst the remainder ranges from poor to a hot mess.
Pearl wrote: "...From an author's point of view, I strive to make my work as professional as possible. Previous comments not only recommend that SP's hire an editor, but suggest that this is essential. Unfortunately many SP's, me included, are not in a financial position to afford this kind of service. ..."
Whilst I can fully understand such dilemma, that doesn't mean that I, as a paying customer--both w/ my money *and* time--should accept that as a reason for a poor product. Frankly, I personally reject it b/c I wouldn't accept the same excuse in other areas.
To be absolutely blunt, financial contraints or any other hurdles are the writer's issues to resolve. Don't make them issues for your customers, much less expect them to lower expectations and give SPAs a pass.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "It seems more and more writers have clued into the fact that readers are making use of the 'Look Inside' function. Consequently, it's not uncommon for the first couple of chapters to be relatively clean, technically, whilst the remainder ranges from poor to a hot mess."This just kills me. I can't believe anyone would be so short-sighted that they'd only think of the first sale.
What about the second sale? The second book? Will they have to look for a fresh batch of sucker customers each time they write another one?
I can see that many of the posters here are really frustrated by the poor quality of some of the SP books they've downloaded. Do y'all know about vetting groups like Awesome Indies, Compulsion Reads, IndieBRAG, etc.? If you stick to books that have been approved or certified by one of these groups, you won't get any stinkers--though you will miss out on some excellent novels that aren't on those sites.I think all the groups have webpages that list the books they've approved, so you don't have to go searching through Amazon or B&N for them.
Karma♥Bites wrote: Perhaps in the beginning but not so much now. It seems more and more writers have clued into the fact that readers are making use of the 'Look Inside' function. Consequently, it's not uncommon for the first couple of chapters to be relatively clean, technically, whilst the remainder ranges from poor to a hot mess....."I agree. Even when a book passes the initial perusal of 'look inside,' some books do degenerate into the 'hot mess,' and in this case you have the option to return the goods for a refund. You may have wasted time, but you will know to avoid that author in the future.
Karma♥Bites wrote: Whilst I can fully understand such dilemma, that doesn't mean that I, as a paying customer--both w/ my money *and* time--should accept that as a reason for a poor product. Frankly, I personally reject it b/c I wouldn't accept the same excuse in other areas...."
I don't expect anyone to accept a poorly edited or designed book, for whatever reason, financial, or otherwise. I expect authors to take responsibility for producing quality merchandise that customers are willing to pay for and spend time reading. I expect authors to take as much time and make as much effort as possible to ensure the reader has a good experience when reading their book.
Karma♥Bites wrote: To be absolutely blunt, financial contraints or any other hurdles are the writer's issues to resolve. Don't make them issues for your customers, much less expect them to lower expectations and give SPAs a pass. ..."
I personally don't make issues for my customers to resolve. I know that all SPA's don't conform to the high standards most readers expect and that fact is bringing the whole SP industry into disrepute, which is a shame as there is a great deal of talent out there.
Karma♥Bites wrote: "Karma♥Bites wrote: To be absolutely blunt, financial contraints or any other hurdles are the writer's issues to resolve. Don't make them issues for your customers, much less expect them to lower expectations and give SPAs a pass."Pearl wrote: "I personally don't make issues for my customers to resolve. I know that all SPA's don't conform to the high standards most readers expect and that fact is bringing the whole SP industry into disrepute, which is a shame as there is a great deal of talent out there."
Thankfully there ARE authors out there who, despite money constraints, at least make every effort to put out a quality product by using every option available to them. The ones who drive me crazy are the ones who KNOW they need tweaking performed, but say, "I'll have it edited after I sell enough to afford the editing." It's bad enough to be ignorant, but to knowingly put out an inferior product is worse.
Edited to change the quote from Karma to better reflect what I was addressing.
Pearl wrote: "...and in this case you have the option to return the goods for a refund. You may have wasted time, but you will know to avoid that author in the future. You may have wasted time, but you will know to avoid that author in the future. ..."Only 2x in 5 yrs have I been lucky enough to meet Amazon's return window of 7 days. I buy books in advance, as and when something catches my interest. So no, returning for refund is not an option for me. It's also a waste of time & not a workable solution in avoiding poor quality books. (Plus, I recall some authors complaining about readers who return for refund. No thanks, I've got enough agita as is.)
Said time x how many other authors? At this point in my life, time is more valuable to me than money. And I have little enough time for pleasure reading as is. Pretty much done wasting any of it on Amazon's 'Look Inside' function.
Pearl wrote: "...I expect authors to take responsibility for producing quality merchandise that customers are willing to pay for and spend time reading. I expect authors to take as much time and make as much effort as possible to ensure the reader has a good experience when reading their book. ..."
And yet you think that 'indie authors deserve a break'. Which is perfectly fine b/c that's your opinion. I was merely replying that I'm not of the same mind.
Finally, for me, it's not a matter of 'high standards'. Unless one considers basic things such as properly written English (preferably beyond high school level) and neat & consistent formatting to be 'high'. Personally, I think that's the very least a reader should expect from a book.
Similar to Moonlight Reader, I merely want a couple of hours of enjoyment from a book. And every book I pick up automatically start at 3 stars, which on GR = I liked it. Most of the rest re: final rating is fully in the writer's court.
etc: missed part of reply & therefore, my response
Lynda wrote: Thankfully there ARE authors out there who, despite money constraints, at least make every effort to put out a quality product by using every option available to them. The ones who drive me crazy are the ones who KNOW they need tweaking performed, but say, "I'll have it edited after I sell enough to afford the editing." It's bad enough to be ignorant, but to knowingly put out an inferior product is worse. ..."I firmly believe that readers will not return to buy more books from authors that fail to provide quality, so through natural selection, (or non selection in this case), these poor, arrogant authors will not flourish.
Linda wrote: "Pearl wrote: "I firmly believe that readers will not return to buy more books from authors that fail to provide quality, so through natural selection, (or non selection in this case), these poor, a..."To believe otherwise is wishful thinking.
I personally don't make issues for my customers to resolve. I know that all SPA's don't conform to the high standards most readers expect and that fact is bringing the whole SP industry into disrepute, which is a shame as there is a great deal of talent out there...."But, that's my point. They aren't high standards. They are minimal standards of competence. Readers aren't looking for a freaking Mercedes roadster convertible - the literary equivalent of a two stroke engine scooter will do just fine. We want the book to get us from the point A (the beginning) to point Z (the end) in reasonable comfort without sending us off a cliff, or dumping us into a cess pool, or leaving us stranded in the bad part of town at midnight without a cell phone or pepper spray.
One thing that I do and perhaps others should too is write free serialized stories with each instalment only taking a few minutes to read.
Lee wrote: "One thing that I do and perhaps others should too is write free serialized stories with each instalment only taking a few minutes to read."And publish them on your blog? Sounds great.
Although I'm not much of a horror fan.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "It seems more and more writers have clued into the fact that readers are making use of the 'Look Inside' function. Consequently, it's not uncommon for the first couple of chapters to be relatively clean, technically, whilst the remainder ranges from poor to a hot mess."Somehow my natural paranoia told me so; I don't trust that feature so much. Also, depending on the books, those first pages are filled with TOC, acknowledgements, thanks, legalese, and various other things that don't exactly give you a real insight into the actual novel. This is why I tend to rely on detailed reviews—even the 1* ones, because you never now: a reader can deeply dislike something I tend to love in a story, and so it doesn't mean the book's 100% bad.
Pearl wrote: "I firmly believe that readers will not return to buy more books from authors that fail to provide quality, so through natural selection, (or non selection in this case), these poor, arrogant, authors will not flourish."
That's how it goes as far as I'm concerned. Exception, though, if someone else read the same novel from the same author, had the same opinion as I had, but says the author has improved a lot in between books. In this case, I'm willing to give a second chance. (Also something I do with trad. published works, not only SP/indies.)
Lee wrote: "One thing that I do and perhaps others should too is write free serialized stories with each instalment only taking a few minutes to read."I did that on Fictionpress for the longest time. I built up a nice fanbase there and made some awesome friends. Publishing your stories for free is a great, no pressure way to get people to read your work. And it's fun! :)
Brenda wrote: "And in one sense this is hopeful. Because if you can do it, you are a pearl among a whole bunch of pebbles."In which event, the readers are so thrilled (and sadly, grateful) that they'll shout it wherever they can.
(polishes fingernails)I will say that the author's co-op I work with (Book View Cafe) has some of the slickest formatters around. The ability to get right down into the code is worth solid gold, let me tell you. Our work (including mine!) is damned good, and one of our novels has just been nominated for the Nebula Award.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Finally, for me, it's not a matter of 'high standards'. Unless one considers basic things such as properly written English (preferably beyond high school level) and neat & consistent formatting to be 'high'. Personally, I think that's the very least a reader should expect from a book."+1,000,000
I've read through a lot of samples of self-published books recently. I admit that I am probably a picky reader in general, but we are not talking about the subtleties of the Oxford comma here. The kinds of errors I've seen in some of these samples are so egregious, so mind-bogglingly awful, that it's hard to believe the books are for real.
There is a lot of talk about not being able to afford a professional editor, but no one should need an editor to tell them not to put periods. At random in the middle of a sentence. Commas, semicolons, periods, and apostrophes (Dear God! The apostrophes!) are sprinkled like confetti throughout text as if they have no purpose. Forget professional editing - I'm not sure how some of these writers made it through middle school. Most of us did not have professional editors to help us write English papers.
It's even more disturbing to me to see how many other authors give five star reviews to these books. Whenever I see that, I'm suspicious that there is some type of quid pro quo arrangement. The only other possible explanation is that the reviewer is just as clueless. Here's a tip for self-published authors - it's a bad, bad idea to put your name on an endorsement of a horrible book. That alone will be enough to turn a lot of people away from your work.
I'm sorry for the rant. I'm cranky after reading so much bad stuff. But the people who should really be upset are the self-published authors who can actually write. Their books get buried in all the crap.
Long response to the page while on a break from some past its deadline non-fiction writing. I do admit to high standards, which paradoxically means that I am more likely to read SPA as so many trade published books are just as unreadable to me. Having said that no trade published book could ever be as bad as the worst of SPA - see my blog for a review of Secrets to Becoming a Memory Genius.
For formatting I highly recommend Mark Coker's Smashwords Style Guide. There are a lot of rules on Smashwords, but that is because it takes a lot of effort to ensure that your text is basic enough to allow readers to use their eReaders as they choose.
In terms of only reading SPA books recommended by friends or buying more from the same author, is that any different to bricks and mortar stores? Apart from the displays, who ever browses through every book in the Fiction A-Z?
Finally, there is editing, my pet topic. SPA authors should not be judged if they are (financially) poor, but only if they are so grammatically poor that they do not realise that they need help. The standard of editing is poor even at The Random Penguin. I am currently reading Elizabeth George's Just One Evil Act. It has awful contractions ('f for if; c'n for can), homonyms (complement for compliment) and factual errors about my hometown - the latest is this gem: "The midway point between Leicester Square and what went for Chinatown." Leicester Square backs onto Chinatown! Yet this does not entirely ruin the enjoyment, as opposed to the mess that was Success to Becoming, which contained over 90 errors in a 40 page text. That book has been reported to Amazon and if it was not free on the day I downloaded it, I would demand my money back.
I might have finally decided to write as an SPA (for the sake of creative freedom), but I do not read many SPA novels. Although once ScribD process the Smashwords and BookBaby catalogues, I expect to read more as they give unlimited downloads.
I think it's that a lot of the earlier self-publishers (from what I've gathered and think) made a bad name for each other. the whole flaming bad reviews, and all that type of bad attitude, as well as editing issues (which sadly i'm guilty of, I apologize) sadder part is self-publishers aren't making it any better to this day.but just my opinion
Mercia wrote: "see my blog for a review of Secrets to Becoming a Memory Genius."Mercia, I love the vampire quote from the book.
I happened to go to that book's Amazon page to see the five-star reviews. One reviewer sounded so phony that I checked his other reviews, and what do you know? He reviewed nine books today, giving them all five stars, with almost identical commentary—only changing a word here and there, from "memory" to "fibromyalgia" to "stress" to whatever else. All of them finish with, "If you are looking for [fill in the blank], look no further. Five stars and worth the read!"
More like FIVERR.
ETA: Most of her five-star reviewers have read all the same books, reviewing all of them on the same day. What a coincidence.
Mercia wrote: "...The standard of editing is poor even at The Random Penguin. I am currently reading Elizabeth George's Just One Evil Act. It has awful contractions ('f for if; c'n for can), homonyms (complement for compliment) and factual errors about my hometown..."Yes, and why is that? B/c more and more, expectations and minimum requirements keep getting lowered. The most damaging is what has been occurring w/in the educational system. If educators themselves don't know proper English and/or don't expect (or demand) that students learn the basics, then is it any wonder that there are people who instinctively don't know the difference between 'its' and 'it's'? Or singular possessive vs. plain plural? Or even worse, proclaim that it doesn't matter?
And every so often, someone pipes up with 'well, trad pub books have errors, too' as if that were sufficient to excuse the mess of some SP books. Yes, I agree that current trad books are not as good as those from a decade past. But why? Most logical answer is that the proof/copy/editing staffers are less competent in their job than those who preceded them.
Nonetheless, as someone already noted, the worst of trad pub will probably still beat out most of today's SP books--at least from a technical standpoint. To make allowances or cite this, that or the other thing will do nothing but perpetuate the problem and continue the vicious cycle.
Lynda wrote: "Mercia wrote: "see my blog for a review of Secrets to Becoming a Memory Genius."I happened to go to that book's Amazon page to see the five-star reviews. One reviewer sounded so phony that I chec..."
I had to go have a look. I also like how the book has a huge sub-title that is just a loooong string of SEO keywords. Classy.
Gregor wrote: "I had to go have a look. I also like how the book has a huge sub-title that is just a loooong string of SEO keywords. Classy."Yes. Classy was exactly the word that came to my mind as well. It wasn't the only word, but it was one of them.
Lynda wrote: "Gregor wrote: "I had to go have a look. I also like how the book has a huge sub-title that is just a loooong string of SEO keywords. Classy."Yes. Classy was exactly the word that came to my mind ..."
It looks like all of the books that were reviewed by the review-bot you mentioned are all put out by the same unnamed 'publisher.' They have different author names, but the formatting, cover design, SEO overload in their titles and blurbs are all nearly identical.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "And every so often, someone pipes up with 'well, trad pub books have errors, too' as if that were sufficient to excuse the mess of some SP books. Yes, I agree that current trad books are not as good as those from a decade past. But why? Most logical answer is that the proof/copy/editing staffers are less competent in their job than those who preceded them."Thanks Karma for providing an excellent defence of my regular point: readers should not say "Go hire an editor" every time an SPA cites poor resources for why their debut book was self-edited. Note that one very experienced author on this thread is self-edited. My books will probably all be self-edited. The two of us share a common rationale and it is pointed to in your comment.
Trade pub editing standards have become much worse. They were always poor in mid-ranking presses, but not even the Big Bird that is The Random Penguin can get the staff nowadays. I will probably always self-edit as I will not hand over good money to bad editors and compared to me most editors are bad editors. This is especially so with my current limited resources, where I could only afford the low end of the market. That means hiring someone starting out in an editing career. If Elizabeth George, as a New York Bestseller publishing with New York's finest, ends up with an editor (and proof-readers) who do not know the difference between complement and compliment, then I am not parting with my dwindling stash of cash to people who have a fraction of my talent.
In the meantime, I will be focusing my reading on the pre-paid library services of ScribD and Amazon Prime, as there is often insufficient words in Amazon's Look Inside to make a proper judgement. Smashwords authors' choose the percentage to sample on their site and they give a better chance to judge, but so far I have not read a sample than would encourage me to buy a copy.
And you do not have to pay in cash for editing or beta reads. There are places you can do it co-operatively -- I read yours, you read mine. It is well worth doing this. Something about reading someone else's ms improves your eye. All -her- flaws are cruelly plain to see! And then you come back to your own dear novel, and you can see that yeah, maybe they don't need to spend the entire chapter telling each other about the star drive...
Linda wrote: "And again, to quote Josh Olson:It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't.
(By the way, here's a simple way to find out if you're a writer. If you disagree with that statement, you're not a writer. Because, you see, writers are also readers.)
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnins..."
This is such an excellent article, I hope everyone here clicks on the link to read it. One of my favorite parts where he talks about people wanting honesty but not really wanting it:
"Do you have any idea how hard it is to tell someone that they've spent a year wasting their time? Do you know how much blood and sweat goes into that criticism? Because you want to tell the truth, but you want to make absolutely certain that it comes across honestly and without cruelty."
I have agonized over the emails/summaries I write for editing evaluations. I've written and rewritten to the point where it takes me longer to write the email than it did to do the evaluation itself. Seriously. Hours will be spent, trying to say what needs to be said in such a way that feelings are not hurt but honesty prevails. And yet, in a recent event where I did not one, but two free evaluations for someone, she never even responded to the second eval because I didn't lie to her and tell her that her writing was just fine as it was. I'm sure she's telling her friends and family what a jerk I am.
Lynda wrote: "Richard wrote: "In case anyone out there is still wondering about this question... Here's an example of a self-pub author undergoing melt-down over a rating:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/..."
To get het up about bad reviews or stars is pointless. It's all a matter of opinion. I love some books that other readers hate and I hate some book that other readers love. I've had very good reviews and some bad ones too.
Alexes wrote: "I can see that many of the posters here are really frustrated by the poor quality of some of the SP books they've downloaded. Do y'all know about vetting groups like Awesome Indies, Compulsion Read..."I'm going to check them out. Thanks for that.
BTW, I traditionally publish and indie published because I started late and have developed Parkinson's Disease. A good traditional publisher takes 3-4 years AFTER they have accepted your book. That's if you haven't spent months possibly years sending it around and waiting for rejections/acceptances. I just don't have the time to wait, so I do both. I belong to a writers' group that critiques and I'm building a stable of beta readers and proofreaders.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Mercia wrote: "...The standard of editing is poor even at The Random Penguin. I am currently reading Elizabeth George's Just One Evil Act. It has awful contractions ('f for if; c'n for can), homony..."A lot of editors are part time and paid ridiculously low fees per book. I imagine that makes a difference as to quality.
Goodreads Authors/Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
The Devil's Workshop (other topics)A Prophecy of Dawn (other topics)
Evah & the Unscrupulous Thwargg (other topics)
Vampire Asylum (other topics)
Women and Goddesses in Myth and Sacred Text (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Vicky Adin (other topics)K.D. McQuain (other topics)
Jeff Goins (other topics)
Jenny Blake (other topics)
Chris Guillebeau (other topics)
More...
I keep thinking if they'd only participate a bit, they'd realize that serious authors simply don't behave like...well, I'd say like children, but most children I know behave far better.
I can dream, can't I?