Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Linda wrote: "Ken wrote: "... That is, unless a non-profit group could be established to award some kind of "seal of approval" to be sported by the books that pass muster.
..."
There is one, Ken. I won't link ..."
Would like to see the link so I'll know which books to avoid.
..."
There is one, Ken. I won't link ..."
Would like to see the link so I'll know which books to avoid.
There is a lot of crap out there, but the most irksome thing is a book that is not a bad read, but that has several 5 star reviews and nothing else. It's so hard to judge. A book does not need 5 star reviews for me to read it, because I'm looking for a certain genre and tone, and I will overlook a certain amount of poor grammar.Having said that, I now refer posters to Shewanda Pugh, an author who has several 5 star reviews and who deserves them.
I wouldn't give a bad review on this website because the author can easily find out who you are and return the favor without even reading your book. So I don't give any reviews unless I really like the book. Amazon.com is a different matter...
Ken wrote: "I wouldn't give a bad review on this website because the author can easily find out who you are and return the favor without even reading your book. So I don't give any reviews unless I really lik..."I have felt similar concerns. Someone recently sent me a copy of his book and asked me to review it. I thought it was pretty awful so I {wait a sec, let me put my asbestos panties on} sent a polite email {shudder} to them explaining why I didn't like it (Nothing to do with dashes, the occasional misspelling, or political viewpoint. If I don't like a book it is because it is boring, stupid, or has lousy characters). I then asked them if my feedback was sufficient, or if they really wanted me to post an honest review. My feedback was sufficient.
Maybe this was cowardly of me - I guess I should go see the Wizard.
I spent a fair amount of time on The Source, approving and rejecting works that were voluntarily submitted to a critical screening process, and got so much feedback from writers who did not like what I had to say that I am taking a hiatus. I also have less time, because I am no longer between projects, and I do have deadlines, but I had not anticipated that I was going to spend all this time fielding upset authors. I'll probably be back, but it's frustrating to realize that I'm not actually dealing with adult professionals at least some of the time.
It is lovely to be kind and supportive and compassionate and there is a place for that, but only saying nice things does not improve the quality of the product. And the outright hostility with which criticism is often greeted is absolutely poisonous to any attempts to make self-published books adhere to any kind of professional standard.
Why review anyone else's books at all?
The only reason I can think of is to get them to give your books a glowing review in return, and if we have any self-respect at all, we don't go soliciting reviews.
After all, there's a name for girls who solicit...
The only reason I can think of is to get them to give your books a glowing review in return, and if we have any self-respect at all, we don't go soliciting reviews.
After all, there's a name for girls who solicit...
I NEVER agree to do a review in exchange for a free book. I will review a bad product only if I can remain anonymous. And I will go out of my way to give a good review to a good product. For now, that's about all we can do.
Chris wrote: "Why review anyone else's books at all?The only reason I can think of is to get them to give your books a glowing review in return, and if we have any self-respect at all, we don't go soliciting r..."
Why not review books? Some people enjoy it, and in my case I volunteered because I thought it was a worthy enterprise. I still do, but I don't have time for the nonsense. I was enjoying the intellectual exercise of trying to fairly evaluate things I would normally never pick up to read, but I can find other amusement.
Stan wrote: "There is a lot of crap out there, but the most irksome thing is a book that is not a bad read, but that has several 5 star reviews and nothing else. It's so hard to judge. A book does not need 5 ..."At the risk of breaking my arm from patting myself on the back, my latest book is one that would irk you. The ratings and reviews are all from a GR giveaway, not from family, sock puppets, etc. The only GR-Friend who reviewed it friend-ed me because she liked the book.
To make matters worse, about 30% of the reviews (high star reviews) say things like "I am stumped on how to review it", or "it is hard to talk about without spoilers". My daughter won't even post a review on Amazon, even though she loved it, because the only way she can think of to describe it is "A Mind F*CK" (btw - she is NOT afraid to say she hates something I've done, in fact I think she enjoys doing that).
OK - I'll stop the self promotion. In fact, let me also say that I probably used hyphens instead of dashes, I'm sure some of my quotes are facing in the wrong direction, and there must be at least 5 or 6 misspelled words in it. I know that many of you in this discussion are sensitive to those things and would toss it aside (and miss the story), so I'll save you the trouble.
Don't worry about it, Stan, if those flaws aren't obvious and I like the book, those hyphens and backward quotes won't matter anyway.
Ken wrote: "Don't worry about it, Stan, if those flaws aren't obvious and I like the book, those hyphens and backward quotes won't matter anyway."That's right. Ron's book could have a million 5 star reviews, all honest, and have zero mistakes, and I still would not read it, because it's not what I'm looking for. Someone else could have a million 5 star reviews, and it would be exactly what I was looking for, but if it turned out that the book had enough grammatical problems so that it was obviously not a 5 star book, I would still be annoyed, even if I enjoyed the book.
Authors seem to think that having 5 star reviews is the only reason people purchase a book. I agree that it helps, but there are other reasons people make purchases. Stephen King does not interest me. I don't care how many people love his works.
Chris wrote: "Why review anyone else's books at all?"Because someone has to counter all the dishonesty with a dissection of why a book is crap.
Chris wrote: "The only reason I can think of is to get them to give your books a glowing review in return, and if we have any self-respect at all, we don't go soliciting reviews."
That's a reason to 'swap' reviews, not to write reviews. And while I don't 'solicit' reviews, I have a note at the end of my books asking the reader to review the book if they want to help me gain more exposure.
Chris wrote: "After all, there's a name for girls who solicit... "
Solicitors?
Linda wrote: "I stayed away from this thread for a while for the sake of my blood pressure. :-( Now I come back to it and it's all about em dashes??? Really? ;-)
I don't think em dashes v. hyphens keep pe..."
It's never 'all' about one thing. Formatting and punctuation mistakes are just more clues to a lack of effort, though. Just like the crappy photoshop covers or a blurb with typos. If authors don't even try to appear professional, it's hard to believe they will try to write a story worth reading.
Linda wrote: "Chris wrote: "Why review anyone else's books at all?..."Because I think it's part of tending to our business."
Exactly. If we coddle and support the people who perpetuate the stigma of self-publishing, we are digging our own graves.
Linda wrote: "@Martyn: I was bein' facetious. That's what the ;-) was for. ;-)(Difficult as it may be to believe, I DO have a sense of humor.)"
I know. I don't use smilies. I like to confuse people whether I'm serious or using dry wit.
I review books so that later on I can remember what they were about. It is solely for my own convenience and use. Thus you will never see me reviewing a book I haven't read. However, this may make my reviews actually worth something.
ThreeRs (revenge is probably icecream) wrote: "I'm not an author, but I write reviews because reading has been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember, and as dramatic as it sounds, it hurts me to see so much crap offered for..."Believe it or not there are authors (self-pubbed or traditional) who do try to help reduce some of the atrocities, before they get to the published stage.
It's amazing how often people will ask for commentary regarding their latest effort, full of bad grammar, misspellings, incorrect usages, ad nauseum, only to get a reply along the lines of: "Well that's just my style, and if you don't like it then it's your problem..."
There are self-published authors who do due diligence and make an effort to produce the best work they can, just as there are the hucksters who think they can sell garbage.
Blurbs and previews help weed out the good from the bad, but if you're still not certain, why not ask the author for a free copy of their Epub?
If the writer is only in it for the money, odds are they'll try to get you to buy a copy. If the author is in it for the writing, you just might wind up with a free copy of something you'll want to keep.
I would review the work of others, but at this point my daughter would probably urp all over the keyboard for me.
Edward wrote: "I'll use them for interrupted speech.I only hate them when they're between two words—looking like they're joining two words together like a hyphen.
Doesn't that look like I used some strange hyb..."
@Edward: Not for a well-read person, no, the em dash doesn't look strange. It looks normal. It tells me how to read the sentence, which is as an interruption.
@all: Clearly, an em dash is not the all-powerful criterion for judging a book. The story ALWAYS comes first. Let's not get it twisted, everyone. BUT using correct punctuation is one more notch in the belt of professionalism that would tighten your grip on the market. At least, the market to which I belong: educated, well-read professionals who know the difference between an em dash and a hyphen, and expect the author to know the same. Punctuation isn't optional; it's critical for reading correctly.
ThreeRs (revenge is probably icecream) wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "ThreeRs (revenge is probably icecream) wrote: "I'm not an author, but I write reviews because reading has been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember, and as dram..."How about a free chapter or two? That seems reasonable.
In fact, now that I've said that, it might be a good idea for every ebook to have the first two chapters available for free.
Ron wrote: "there must be at least 5 or 6 misspelled words in it"If you know the misspelled words are in there, then you owe it to yourself and any potential reader to correct them.
Heather wrote: "Not for a well-read person, no, the em dash doesn't look strange. It looks normal. It tells me how to read the sentence, which is as an interruption. "I've been reading all my life, so I think I'm a "well-read" person, and I've always misread words connected with an em dash. It is just too close to a hyphenated word to me.
But now I know that rather than making myself abundantly clear by using hyphens, I may also be making myself look unprofessional.
I'll give more thought to my misuse in the future, but I'm stickin' with my POV switches. ;)
Linda wrote: " some authors will polish the living shit out of those first few chapters, hoping to get a sale. "That's pathetic. I can't believe people would do that and leave a bunch of crap with their name on it.
But that explains a few books I've read where I wondered what happened and seriously thought the editor must've been drinking while working as the errors got progressively worse.
If they just want to make money, they're in the wrong business.
R.F.G. wrote: "It's amazing how often people will ask for commentary regarding their latest effort, full of bad grammar, misspellings, incorrect usages, ad nauseum, only to get a reply along the lines of: "Well that's just my style, and if you don't like it then it's your problem..."I've had this happen to me more than a handful of times. I don't care if you wrote the book last week or if it's taken you ten years to finish; if it needs further work, why wouldn't you want to make it better?
ThreeRs (revenge is probably icecream) wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "ThreeRs (revenge is probably icecream) wrote: "I'm not an author, but I write reviews because reading has been an important part of my life for as long as I can remember, and as dram..."ThreeRs,
If the author has a long track record it might seem presumptuous, but for an unknown it isn't. Or as Stan mentioned, two or three chapters is a reasonable sample. Look at it as a form of almost effortless proactive marketing.
If you like Sci-Fi with a bit of a Romance twist, PM me with your email and I'll hook you up with freebies. I don't expect a review or a rate, and I can tell in advance of flaws (two of them are in my editor's hands getting red penned).
The first reader on the larger work the editor is marking up liked it in spite of typos (it's being processed after all).
Baby girl is three months old now so I tend to write when she's asleep, learning English, Spanish, or Japanese, or Wife is home (though she's in her chair on the worktable watching me now, thanks Mami).
Urp happens.
I hand out freebies on my self-pubs fairly freely. And frankly, while I try to make sure that my copy is clean, and chase down oddities, I know my formatting isn't highly professional, and I have a couple of things that are kind of marginal on technical issues. I go back and forth on whether I should pull them or leave them available, since they're not issues I can fix myself.I hope the writing is professional, and kind of trust that it is the important part. And they are much cheaper than my professionally published novel, which is a much more polished package.
Lynda wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "It's amazing how often people will ask for commentary regarding their latest effort, full of bad grammar, misspellings, incorrect usages, ad nauseum, only to get a reply along the li..."Some people just want to take the money and run.
I've seen enough festered suppurating sores where the author was only "trying to make some money".
Even worse, the ten page novel for $14 that would gag a maggot taking Dramamine...
And the thing about ebooks is that it is so easy to make them better. You don't have to go through the printing process. The version at Amazon of the first book I wrote back in 2008 is much better than the original. I will always be grateful to the guy who reviewed that book at Smashwords, for calling my use of apostrophes "atrocious." In one sentence he taught me how to use them correctly, and I almost never make that mistake now. The best reason to read the posts in this discussion is for the insights on grammar.
Question: How many SP authors get their books into bookstores? How do they go about it?
Ron wrote: "Question: How many SP authors get their books into bookstores? How do they go about it?"Not many, usually due to the cost differentials that favor traditional publishing.
Those who do get their books into brick and mortar stores have to put in a lot of time and effort to do so.
Richard wrote: "ThreeRs wrote: "I've never thought of asking for a free copy. It seems presumptuous. "Why presumptuous? Self-pub writers who aren't in it for the money should have nothing to lose, right?
That's..."
That means I need to ask for your entire catalog.
Ron wrote: "Question: How many SP authors get their books into bookstores? How do they go about it?"Not many. There was a thread here on GR that linked to some guy's blog post where he outlined the steps to get his books into bookstores. If you Google it, you'll find out how difficult (and expensive) it can be. It takes a lot of leg work, too.
ETA: And you have to eat the returns, too, from what I understand.
Ron wrote: "Question: How many SP authors get their books into bookstores? How do they go about it?"I recently thought of looking for any mom & pop stores and seeing if they have sections for local authors, but haven't tried it yet.
When I do, I won't put in a lot of effort. If they're up for it, I'll offer them some books. If they make it complicated or the decision-maker isn't available, etc., then that's that.
It's probably a bad RoI venture—especially for an unknown indie.
(ooh! notice the em dash!) ;)
*Applauding the em dash*Well-played, Edward. Kudos.
Edward wrote: "Ron wrote: "Question: How many SP authors get their books into bookstores? How do they go about it?"I recently thought of looking for any mom & pop stores and seeing if they have sections for l..."
One thing you might want to consider is seeing if a mom-n-pop shop would be up for a book signing if you provide some copies at cost, then check on getting a blurb run in the local interest section of the closest newspaper.
Just remember, self-marketing and promotion takes some time and effort. You might be better off doing a few giveaways and build up at least a small following first.
There is a local 'novelty' store that sells my niche zombie book, but I didn't pursue other stores because of the effort required to keep track of the stores, keep track of the sales, keep track of the inventory, negotiate the split, etc. I didn't want to become an accountant.What I would really like to do is penetrate the airport bookstore market. They always seem to have political thriller books for sale. But it would have to be negotiated with the central office for the reasons I mentioned above.
Plus, I have to learn to use the em dash and to keep my quotes all facing the right direction or the readers will be struggling to throw the book out of the window after the plane has taken off. I don't want to be responsible for any depressurization events.
R.F.G. wrote: "is seeing if a mom-n-pop shop would be up for a book signing if you provide some copies at cost..."Actually I did a book signing at the novelty store. In fact they set up a whole "Zombie Apocalypse" day to help promote the signing. We even had a 'Hot Zombie Chick' help with the promotion.
The store is in a small town in SW Ohio and the mayor actually came into the store and tried to shut the book signing down. The book has the word Bisexual in the title, and therefore I had to be a "purveyor of filth and a corrupter of children". The store owner threw her out, then she retaliated by having the town police escort anyone in zombie makeup outside the town limits. A fun time was had by all!
R.F.G. wrote: "One thing you might want to consider is seeing if a mom-n-pop shop would be up for a book signing if you provide some copies at cost, then check on getting a blurb run in the local interest section of the closest newspaper."That's a great idea. I'd give them the books. I'm not in this for money. Well, I'd love it if all I had to do every day was write, and never fix another computer, but I'm not unrealistic about the money side. I think I read that Isaac Asimov wrote for 20 years without making money. Authors need to focus on being the best writers they can be, and not worrying about how much money they're making the day after they self-published.
@Ron, what software are you using that's giving you trouble with your em dashes and quotes?
I use Word and it's not an issue—except when I'm editing someone else's book, then I have to fix their quotes sometimes because they'll sometimes be facing the wrong way.
Ron wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "she retaliated by having the town police escort anyone in zombie makeup outside the town limits."How is that even legal?? Do they have a city ordinance against wearing zombie make-up?
Lynda wrote: "*Applauding the em dash*Well-played, Edward. Kudos."
Thanks. :)
I'm learning.
Ron wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "is seeing if a mom-n-pop shop would be up for a book signing if you provide some copies at cost..."Actually I did a book signing at the novelty store. In fact they set up a whole ..."
Sounds like the mayor needs a job in Sanitation. I wonder what would happen at a book signing for "I Was An Intersex Hermaphroditic Zombie Werewolf Witch's First-cousin's BFF"?
Edward wrote: "@Ron, what software are you using that's giving you trouble with your em dashes and quotes?..."It is mostly my own ineptness. However, my new laptop compounds the issue. When I write on my Mac everything comes out correctly. When I write on Windoze it has this funky algorithm where it waits to see what character you are going to type after the quote, and will sometimes put up a character from a different alphabet (e.g. an umlaut). It is sort of treating the opening quote like the alt key. If anyone has a solution I'd be appreciative if they would share it with me.
R.F.G. wrote: "I wonder what would happen at a book signing for "I Was An Intersex Hermaphroditic Zombie Werewolf Witch's First-cousin's BFF"?? "
Maury Povich's booking agent would call you.
--
When I click the email link that is supposed to bring me here to a new comment, I land at a page that is on kcw.goodreads.com and I get the Firefox warning that this site may be fake and I have the option to add a security exception if I understand the risks, etc.
I close the window, then click the link again from my email, and then I land here at www.goodreads.com.
Has anyone seen this before? Is there a backup server or something for when the site is busy?
---
etc: quote
Edward wrote: "How is that even legal?? Do they have a city ordinance against wearing ..."I don't think it was legal. They tried to escort the Hot Zombie Chick out and she refused to go. They gave up and let her stay.
R.F.G. wrote: "I wonder what would happen at a book signing for "I Was An Intersex Hermaphroditic Zombie Werewolf Witch's First-cousin's BFF..."That's great. Now I know what to call the sequel!
Ron wrote: "They tried to escort the Hot Zombie Chick out and she refused to go. They gave up and let her stay. "Good for her.
Long live resistance, and hot zombie chicks!
Edward wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: ""I Was An Intersex Hermaphroditic Zombie Werewolf Witch's First-cousin's BFF"? "Maury Povich's booking agent would call you.
--
When I click the email link that is supposed to br..."
On the "kcw.thing" I had it happen earlier.
On the Maury Povich thing I know this will sound stupid, but who is Maury Povich?
Edward wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "I wonder what would happen at a book signing for "I Was An Intersex Hermaphroditic Zombie Werewolf Witch's First-cousin's BFF"?? "
Maury Povich's booking agent would call you.
--
..."
The same thing is happening to me and I'm using Chrome. I'm getting an SSL error. My guess is their load balancer keeps throwing traffic at a server with an expired web cert or something.
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Linda has the right of it. A crapalicious book is never going to be made better by swapping out all the hyphens for em-dashes.
Learn to write, first! Then worry about everything else.