Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion

3152 views
III. Goodreads Readers > Why don't more people read Self-published authors?

Comments Showing 1,151-1,200 of 2,452 (2452 new)    post a comment »

message 1151: by Ron (last edited Jan 29, 2014 07:44AM) (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: I presumed (perhaps mistakenly) that you knew something about words, especially when they are strung together for meaning. ... I see a difference in the words chosen but understand if you don't. ..."

It is truly kind of you to clarify my misunderstanding. As you just pointed out, you obviously understand things that I do not. The strength of your Ad Hominem argument is undeniable.

Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: Perhaps b/c some authors hold onto the notion of 'compassion'... and grammar 'lectures' not appropriate in book reviews. ..."

I believe I conceded that anyone who attempts to sell their work online can expect to get the full online treatment when it comes to reviews. Authors just have to remember that those comments come from people like any other person, that the opinion expressed is just an opinion, and that some readers just won't get what the author is trying to do.

Personally, I will likely continue to review with humility. If there is a disconnect between me and the book I will point that out, but gently because I realize that I am still learning the craft and the problem may well be on my end. If my reviews are responsible for people not reading SP books then I guess I will have to shoulder that burden - but I think there are more than enough reviewers out there with blow torches to offset my meager efforts at reviewing.


message 1152: by Karma♥Bites ^.~ (last edited Jan 29, 2014 08:36AM) (new)

Karma♥Bites ^.~ (karma_bites) | 215 comments Ron wrote: "It is truly kind of you to clarify my misunderstanding. As you just pointed out, you obviously understand things that I do not. The strength of your Ad Hominem argument is undeniable. ..."


Ron, FYI... my arguments would be 'ad hominem' (in true meaning of that term, as opposed to the currently somewhat misunderstood/looser definition) only if I had no basis for my statements and/or I deflected by focusing on the personal. IMVHO, neither apply.

ETA: You do know that it's the abbreviated term for argumentum ad hominem, yes?


message 1153: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Karma - once again you have shown me the error of my ways. Clearly your comments were not attacking me because clearly I do not know words or their meaning when they are strung together. Your VHO of me and my shortcomings, I'm sure, are shared by everyone in this group and I apologize for taking up bandwidth.

In an effort to lighten this bandwidth waste, if you will start directing your observations of my shortcomings to private messages (considering you have posted that your comments are for me and can be skipped by others in the group, and that you "Tsk" public floggings) I will attempt to go into lurk mode where I can quietly learn from my superiors.


message 1154: by Bekah (new)

Bekah Shambrook (bekahcat) | 5 comments I will read anything that catches my eye, I know self published authors who are better than non-self published ones.

I don't understand why people discriminate against self published authors and then rave about some middle range 'proper' author...


message 1155: by Brenda (last edited Jan 29, 2014 09:02AM) (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments I can tell you the answer. It is because people are trying to play the odds.
If you had an infinite amount of time, perfect vision for ever, and all the money of Bill Gates, you would not care. You could read everything, reject the turkeys and keep the good ones, and be happy.
But suppose you have limits. You only have so much $, or limited vision, and a fixed quantity of time. Then you do not want to waste your limited assets on turkeys and lemons. You want to cut straight to the worthwhile stuff.
Most people are like this. They don't have assets to waste. They need filters. And one strong filter for books is traditional publishing. Publishers exist solely as a filter. They toss all the turkeys, they edit the heck out of the books they buy. Every now and then you get a lemon. But BY AND LARGE a book from a major publisher will not have egregious errors or massive typos. It will be written more or less in standard English and will make sense. Self publishing cannot guarantee that. And the buyer likes guarantee.
So you see that every time I pick up a SP book, I am taking a gamble. And most of the time I just do not want to make that bet.


message 1156: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Brenda wrote: "Most people are like this. They don't have assets to waste. They need filters. And one strong filter for books is traditional publishing. Publishers exist solely as a filter. They toss all the turkeys, they edit the heck out of the books they buy. Every now and then you get a lemon. But BY AND LARGE a book from a major publisher will not have egregious errors or massive typos."

One attempt at filtering the diamonds from the muck:
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...

Feel free to participate.


message 1157: by Karma♥Bites ^.~ (last edited Jan 29, 2014 09:24AM) (new)

Karma♥Bites ^.~ (karma_bites) | 215 comments Ron wrote: "Karma - once again you have shown me the error of my ways. Clearly your comments were not attacking me because clearly I do not know words or their meaning when they are strung together. Your VHO of me and my shortcomings, I'm sure, are shared by everyone in this group and I apologize for taking up bandwidth.

In an effort to lighten this bandwidth waste, if you will start directing your observations of my shortcomings to private messages (considering you have posted that your comments are for me and can be skipped by others in the group, and that you "Tsk" public floggings) I will attempt to go into lurk mode where I can quietly learn from my superiors."


Ron, *you* mentioned 'public flogging' when it was wholly unjustified. *You* wrote something and then claimed something (sorry) ridiculous on its face. Hence, my statement re: your comprehension--it was to make a point. It wasn't an 'attack' b/c I had a logical basis for it--your own words. (And here, I've giving you the benefit of the doubt and using the actual meaning of argumentum ad hominem.)

You then continued to post not-quite-on target remarks and replies (w/o ever directly addressing my initial query or any of my other points) when you could've just as easily PM'd me. *You* continued the runaround on this thread. So why should *I* have PM'd you? To save you the embarrassment? Assuming that, then you have only yourself to blame. I simply asked a question (which you never answered).

ETA: To clarify, my 'tsk, tsk' was re: your use of the term 'public flogging', not that I disapprove of it.


message 1158: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Karma - You are correct. I have exhibited very poor behavior. My comments have been off target and out of line. I will try to learn from your example. Once again, I apologize.


message 1159: by Stan (new)

Stan Morris (morriss003) | 362 comments Brenda wrote: "Clearly, my allusive hint isn't sufficient.
So: I had eye surgery this summer. My vision is limited, and I allocate it carefully. I no longer finish books that seem to be turkeys; life is too shor..."


I agree with what you have said except for the part about not reading free books. I've found free books that were much better than some hardbacks. Not usually, but it's not uncommon either.


message 1160: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Stan wrote: "I agree with what you have said except for the part about not reading free books. I've found free books that were much better than some hardbacks. Not usually, but it's not uncommon either."

I think it also depends 'why' a book is free. Many writers of series make the first book in the series free (as a loss leader) so people will sample their books. I do the same thing with two of my short stories.

I also have some free novels on my kindle, but I don't download every free offering--just like with a paid novel, I will study the cover and the blurb and sample the first pages. I don't want to clutter my kindle with substandard books.


message 1161: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments And there's another limited resource: storage space. Had we but world enough and time...


message 1162: by [deleted user] (new)

I once offered my novel for free, for one day, hoping for reviews. Over 80 were downloaded, in various countries, without a single review. Unless you're using the freebie as a loss leader, as Martyn said, I can't see an advantage in it, and would not do it again, at least for a non-series novel.


message 1163: by Andrea (new)

Andrea Jackson (paperbackdiva) | 108 comments There are certain posters you should just block in order to keep your blood pressure down. They will never get it.


message 1164: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments That is the other thing about SP. It's all on you. If you are self-publishing, you need to do all the jobs Random House does up in New York City: copy edit, edit, proof. Type set, book design, page design. Formatting, art selection cover design. Marketing, advertising, PR. The marketplace expects all these thing in a book. Hand me a Word file full of typos and it is NOT the same.
If you are not going to do pro stuff, don't bill your product as professional. Put it up on a blog.


message 1165: by Lynda (new)

Lynda Dietz | 354 comments Martyn V. wrote: "Ehm, if a road has potholes and dangers, I think I'll call whomever is responsible for the road and tell them to fix it.

I'd rather compare to a product, like a package of cookies that looks really good, but taste like crap."


Martyn, after I looked back at my comment, I guess it didn't make sense once it left my head...I meant (at least I think I meant) that it's not my job to stand over the road workers and tell them how to fix the hole. Yeah, someone needs to tell them the hole is there, though. You're right.

And I like your crappy cookie comment better, anyway. You nailed it. :)

I leave this page for a day and I miss a world of fun! My goodness. I love it when threads are this active.


message 1166: by Karma♥Bites ^.~ (last edited Jan 29, 2014 05:37PM) (new)

Karma♥Bites ^.~ (karma_bites) | 215 comments Ron wrote: "Karma - You are correct. I have exhibited very poor behavior. My comments have been off target and out of line. I will try to learn from your example. Once again, I apologize."

Ron, apologies for the belated reply. I tried to post and Creepy Alice appeared instead. So whilst I have this brief window...

You don't need to apologise. I can understand how you must've felt and it wasn't my intent to deliberately keep you on the hot seat. However, understand that I didn't take kindly to my post #1235 (which posed the question to you) suddenly being characterised as a 'public lashing'. Nor the application of ad hominem, however misused, to my later posts.

etc: typos; link for ref


message 1167: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments And did you mention this in a review? Or did you clutch the fox to your bosom and say only positive things?


message 1168: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Lynda wrote: "I leave this page for a day and I miss a world of fun! My goodness. I love it when threads are this active."

So do I. Have we reached a consensus yet?

From a rough overview of the reasons stated (correct me if I'm wrong), Self-Publishing has a stigma of crappy books, and readers tend to avoid all self-published books because they get burned too often.

So how can we improve the experience of readers?

- I'm currently volunteering in a GR group called The Source, that actively searches for self-published works that easily match the quality of trade published books.
Self-published books can be recommended to the group, where they will be screened first (on cover, blurb, and Amazon sample). If that doesn't throw up any red flags, the book will need five approvals to go to the Review round, where another five people have to read and recommend the book to be displayed on the website.

- Another thing, often suggested by readers, is 'to police our own', which would mean that if a self-published author spots a self-published book that is clearly published prematurely, to 'down-vote' that book through critical reviews.

- To encourage writers to invest in editing/proofing their work and improving their skill to a professional standard before they publish. To discourage them from taking shortcuts, publishing before they're ready, using customers as beta-readers and doing anything else that perpetuates the stigma, like responding to reviews and/or blaming readers for the flaws in their books.

What stands in the way:

- The sheer time it takes for volunteers to make a difference, with so many self-published books that it will take the handful of volunteers a long time to build a database of self-published books that merit the investment readers make.

- The general attitude that self-published authors should be supportive of any self-published author, not matter the quality of their work.

This is what I perceive to be the reasons why not more people read self-published works. With the ease and convenience of digital publishing, you will always get writers who will publish prematurely, and the main problem is that these authors rarely recognize their own deficiencies. Is there a way to remedy that?


message 1169: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments I think that if books got more reads and more reviews then the cream would automatically rise to the top. I appreciate all the work that the people in The Source are putting into the process (and I have helped out screening for them - and for those of you who are curious, my screening results were never made public so I didn't just kiss and hug), but IMHO getting the book into then hands of 50 people who *will* review is simpler and better.

Goodreads currently has a giveaway program. I assumed that people would sign up for books they were interested in and then review them. I have discovered:
1) Many people go for every giveaway, no matter if they are interested or not.
2) I am experiencing only about 40% reviews from the books I give away. I don't believe this is just a function of someone hating the book - my niche book got about 50% positive and 50% negative reviews (about what I expected once I realized some copies of the book would be going to completely the wrong audience).

I asked Goodreads how they chose the people to give the books to. The first answer I got was that they had an algorithm that they were constantly fine-tuning. On a later query the person confided to me that the algorithm was just a random number generator.

Personally, I wish Goodreads would track giveaway recipients and their reviews. If they ever fall below some threshold for reviews (say 66% of the books they've received), they would no longer be eligible giveaways.


message 1170: by Gregor (new)

Gregor Xane (gregorxane) | 274 comments Ron wrote: "I think that if books got more reads and more reviews then the cream would automatically rise to the top. I appreciate all the work that the people in The Source are putting into the process (and I..."

But the Giveaway program isn't a "read for review" program. All you can hope for is that the book you give away falls into the hands of someone who might actually read it. Perhaps it could be refined in some way where readers of a specific genre are only able to sign up for giveaways for books in genres they routinely read. But, even then, since it's a giveaway, the book's the reader's property to do with what they will. They can give the book to their buddy, sell it on eBay, or make a voodoo doll of the author out of it.


message 1171: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Gregor - yes, I'm suggesting that they either turn it into a "read for review" program or set up a different "read for review" program.

They can still do what ever they want with the book they get, but if they don't publish reviews then the stop getting books.

My concern is that we will still have people signing up for every giveaway and then just putting a junk review up without really reading the book.

Perhaps someone has some suggestions on how to get reviews (honest reviews) for books.


message 1172: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments There is a read it and reap group on GR where I submitted Reprobate. Garnered some great reviews.


message 1173: by S.L. (new)

S.L. (slgray) | 37 comments The idea of self-publishing collectives appeals to me more and more. :)


message 1174: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Martyn V. wrote: "There is a read it and reap group on GR where I submitted Reprobate. Garnered some great reviews."

Thank you, Martyn. That would be great. I'll try to find them.


message 1175: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Martyn V. wrote: "There is a read it and reap group on GR where I submitted Reprobate. Garnered some great reviews."

Is this the one you are referencing? The Book Club?

Read it and Reap Bookclub


message 1176: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments There are people who just collect free books. They don't even read them. They will mention having a thousand, two thousand free e-books somewhere, never read. I don't know whether they're hoarding them for that day when they have to go into the hospital for eight weeks, or what.


message 1177: by Edward (new)

Edward Wolfe (edwardmwolfe) Brenda wrote: "[Publishers] toss all the turkeys... So you see that every time I pick up a SP book, I am taking a gamble. And most of the time I just do not want to make that bet. "

Publishers toss a lot of swans as well. Consider Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, Robert Pirsig, and so on. Oh, and one of my favorites who got nothing but rejection letters and eventually killed himself, and then later, when his poor mother got his book published, it became a best-seller. That poor bastard was John Kennedy Toole.

As for the gamble you take - preview the book. Issue resolved. Or just continue to allow publishers to filter for you. If you're happy with their track record, that works too.

As for why people think indies aren't real authors - that drives me insane because every published author was previously NOT a "real" author every day of his or her life up until he was published. Duh.

But those people have limited perception and think in terms of things being official. Like a relative I have who thinks anything the government says is automatically correct. LOL

People look to "authorities." Publishers are the so-called authority on books.


message 1178: by Edward (new)

Edward Wolfe (edwardmwolfe) Martyn V. wrote: "... actively searches for self-published works that easily match the quality of trade published books."

This is great, Martyn. I've tried to say that something like this needs to be done and went as far as suggesting that books that meet with approval from their peers by having a level of professionalism can earn the right to add a logo to their book cover. This would communicate to readers that this is an indie book of high quality.

Some naysayer said I wanted to replace the publishing house gatekeepers and who's to determine what's good, etc., blah blah, missing the point.

The story can only be judged by the reader. But fellow authors can ensure that the story is written, edited, proofed and published like a pro.


message 1179: by Heather (new)

Heather | 40 comments I used to win one or two books a night when I signed up for giveaways. I only requested books I thought I might like to read because I felt an obligation to write reviews for the books I won, and I won a ton books at first. But two things happened: I won way too many books and couldn't keep up with the reviews, and I also felt guilty for the few bad reviews I had to write for the horribly-written free books I received. I stopped writing reviews for books I didn't like, and I lost my desire to ask for free books anymore. The only good books I received included letters from publishers from NY, NY...

But here's the thing: I stopped winning ANY books. Ever. Granted, I had to win and not write reviews for about ten books before Goodreads stopped giving me any, but they DO stop eventually. I'm not sure if that's a consolation to you authors, but it's the truth.

One author wrote me a PM about a review I wrote, shocked by what I had to say. And that wasn't even for a free book! I eventually decided to avoid these confrontations and only write reviews for GOOD SP books. I don't think I've written one since, which is a major driving force behind my interest in The Source. I badly want to read and write reviews for solid, well-written, captivating stories that do not feature lazy writing, POV switches, flat characters, and hyphens instead of em dashes. Maybe my expectations are too high, but surely someone out there can meet them.

I can't tell you how many authors have sniveled about their friends, family members, beta readers, and "professional editors" never mentioning the issues I bring up in my reviews. Sigh...


message 1180: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments The whole issue of selecting a good editor could fill up an entire separate thread. My advice is to do it the way you would choose a plumber or a guy to reroof your house. Demand references, ask to see past work, and check it out.


message 1181: by Heather (new)

Heather | 40 comments Brenda wrote: "The whole issue of selecting a good editor could fill up an entire separate thread. My advice is to do it the way you would choose a plumber or a guy to reroof your house. Demand references, ask to..."

I agree. Also, be wary of the lowest bidders. Ask for a sample edit from three to five editors and compare the results. Check the editors' references instead of assuming they're all legitimate. But yes, objective and honest third-party editing is critical.


message 1182: by Lynda (new)

Lynda Dietz | 354 comments Heather wrote: "Ask for a sample edit from three to five editors and compare the results. Check the editors' references instead of assuming they're all legitimate. But yes, objective and honest third-party editing is critical."

I just popped over here and am smiling because this issue is the topic of my blog post for Monday (finding a good editor). I recently did an eval for someone who didn't like the changes I thought should be made. Price was a factor, because the manuscript needed a lot of changes. The writer reworked it over the course of a week and asked for a re-eval. I did another one to be kind, but realized we would not be a good fit.

The only reason the second estimate was cheaper was because I was forced to overlook things the author refused to change: things that were really non-negotiable for grammar and good writing in general (verb tense, clichés, and more). I was NOT trying to change the author's voice. The book simply needed more work than this person would admit.

I ended up telling the person we would not be a good match, and have not gotten a response to my email. If I'd taken the job, I would be taking money for doing a half-job (basically limited to looking for typos and missing punctuation) and could not allow my name to be on the book because it wouldn't be a job I was proud of. It just didn't feel ethical.

I encouraged the author to look here on GR for an editor, but to beware of the "nothing over $100" variety and to get AT LEAST three more sample edits. I'm hoping the other editors tell this person the same things I did, so my eval is seen as valid. There has to be a trust that the editor knows what he/she is doing, and I didn't feel I had that from this author. The first novel from this same person was published with the same problems and the author didn't see anything wrong with it, wanting to continue along those same lines. I just couldn't do it.


message 1183: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 30, 2014 06:12AM) (new)

Heather wrote: "I used to win one or two books a night when I signed up for giveaways. I only requested books I thought I might like to read because I felt an obligation to write reviews for the books I won, and I..."

Hyphens instead of em dashes? Took me awhile to work it out on my first ebook, but I do em dashes with Fn/Alt 0151, but watch out if you use quotation marks immediately after. You have to do two, and erase the first because it's backwards. Took me awhile to notice that, too. Anybody got a better way?


message 1184: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments In theory all of the fussy formatting stuff -- curly quotes instead of straight, hyphens vs. em-dashes -- should be pushed off to the end. That's a near-the-end job, like putting the chocolate sprinkles onto the cupcake. If you are still beating the eggs in, it is not time to worry about sprinkles.

The way it should go is like this: first you write the work. Plot, character, theme, setting, tone -- all that is fixed first. Get all this as good as you can possibly do it, and oh! FINISH the work. Nobody has ever published 3/4 of a novel.

Then, beta read. Find smart people who are conversant in your genre. (Do not waste time handing your romance novel to thriller fans.) Learn to ask smart questions: Does it make sense, when she rejects his proposal? In the battle scene, do you understand what's happening when the AT-ATs assault the fortress? Make them search for WTF moments, logical gaps, and places where they do not understand.

Take all their suggestions and rewrite. Do this as much as you like. Then, edit. Find someone honest and sympatico and professional. Take their suggestions seriously. Rewrite.

Only then, when the work is in its final artistic form, should you start thinking about em-dashes.


message 1185: by [deleted user] (new)

Brenda wrote: "In theory all of the fussy formatting stuff -- curly quotes instead of straight, hyphens vs. em-dashes -- should be pushed off to the end. That's a near-the-end job, like putting the chocolate spri..."

Disagree. It doesn't have to stall your writing. Get the format started on the right foot and you won't have to worry about it afterward. It's a major job to go through a 100,000-word novel and find all of the mis-formatted quotations marks and dashes. And that includes the Table of Contents. Believe me, I had to do it. If you start it right, it'll be a lot easier in the end.


message 1186: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Clough (brendaclough) | 361 comments Doesn't that involve setting it up as standard in your WP? If you can do that, yay. I will also note that lots of stuff (especially for ebook formatting) is not visible on your screen.


message 1187: by Martyn (last edited Jan 30, 2014 08:49AM) (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Ken wrote: "Hyphens instead of em dashes? Took me awhile to work it out on my first ebook, but I do em dashes with Fn/Alt 0151, but watch out if you use quotation marks immediately after. You have to do two, and erase the first because it's backwards. Took me awhile to notice that, too. Anybody got a better way?"

Don't use em-dashes, put XX. Convert your quotation marks to smart quotes when you're formatting. When you're finished, replace all XX with an em-dash. And make sure not to leave spaces around the XX. An em-dash has not spaces, so--if you imagine these double-hyphens to be em-dashes--don't use a space before and after.

The XX will be recognized as a letter, so it will have the proper smart quote. Replacing the XX with an em-dash won't change the smart quote.

If you already used em-dashes, then search and replace all em-dashes with XX, convert the smart quotes again, and search and replace all XX into em-dashes again.


message 1188: by Edward (new)

Edward Wolfe (edwardmwolfe) Heather wrote: "POV switches, flat characters, and hyphens instead of em dashes. "

I hate em dashes. Visually, they appear to connect two words together and I try to avoid anything that will possibly nudge the reader in the wrong direction, causing them to have to go back and re-read to get back on track.

I want my readers to have the smoothest ride possible with no speed-bumps or wrong turns.


message 1189: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Edward wrote: "I hate em dashes. Visually, they appear to connect two words together and I try to avoid anything that will possibly nudge the reader in the wrong direction, causing them to have to go back and re-read to get back on track."

Properly formatted em-dashes look better than commas or parenthesis, but you can do what you want, of course. I use em-dashes a lot, both at the end of sentences to mark interrupted speech, and the regular use. Never had any complaint about my formatting.


message 1190: by Edward (new)

Edward Wolfe (edwardmwolfe) I'll use them for interrupted speech.

I only hate them when they're between two words—looking like they're joining two words together like a hyphen.

Doesn't that look like I used some strange hybrid phrase called "words-looking"?


message 1191: by Lynda (new)

Lynda Dietz | 354 comments Edward wrote: "I'll use them for interrupted speech.

I only hate them when they're between two words—looking like they're joining two words together like a hyphen.

Doesn't that look like I used some strange hybrid phrase called "words-looking"?"


It didn't look like a hybrid with the em-dash, only with the hyphen. It's subtle, but to my eye, it makes a world of difference. I love em-dashes.


message 1192: by [deleted user] (new)

Thanks for the helpful hints, and they can be helpful. However, for me the use of Fn/Alt 0151 and watching the quotes has become second nature, and doesn't slow me down. Still, it would be nice if the computer had one key that would do it, like the hyphen. I know you can convert some computer keys to something else; maybe I should look into that.


message 1193: by Ron (new)

Ron Albury | 56 comments Richard wrote: "That only happens in the movies. In real life the stuff with advertising money behind it usually rises, except for the authors who win the lottery and accidentally go viral like FsoG cough cough...."

But aren't those just mechanisms to get enough reads and reviews? Or is your point that you would never get enough reads and reviews without significant money?


message 1194: by Stan (new)

Stan Morris (morriss003) | 362 comments I usually insert a hyphen in Word. Takes me an extra second.


message 1195: by [deleted user] (new)

Henry wrote: "Word can automatically convert -- to em-dashes, - to en-dashes, and keep your hyphens as intended. Word also replaces your strait quotes with curly quotes, and many other things.
It is fairly easy to format a finished book and create a print-ready pdf. Granted, most SPAs don't worry about paperbacks, but it is easy nonetheless. job to go through a 100,000-word n..."
"

I use LibreOffice and it works much the same way. I just find it easier to correct as I go. Keep in mind that when you replace your straight quotes with curly ones——which I had to do——you have to choose which way the curly quotes point. I replaced all straight quotes with the leading curly quote, and then had to manually replace half of the leading curly quotes with trailing ones. I had to go through it several times, because it seemed that the search and replace procedure somehow missed quite a lot of them, and I found new ones with each search.


message 1196: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 30, 2014 10:57AM) (new)

By the way, I can program it to automatically replace all double hyphens with an em-dash as I type, but only if I space after. Then I can backspace once and continue. But any quotation mark is still backwards and has to be removed after the correct one is typed. I have found that the straight quotes usually appear only after a cut and paste, so they're not much of a problem until you start to make changes.


message 1197: by J.J. (new)

J.J. Baine (jjbaine) | 11 comments Henry wrote: "Ken wrote: "Disagree. It doesn't have to stall your writing. Get the format started on the right foot and you won't have to worry about it afterward. It's a major job to go through a 100,000-word n..."

There are too many rules for Kindle. They just need to chill out and take a pill.

Hahaha, no but seriously, it's great that there are so many guides that mention exactly what you're say. So super helpful!


message 1198: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 30, 2014 11:26AM) (new)

J.J. wrote: "
There are too many rules for Kindle. They just need to chill out and take a pill."

You're right. Reading the guidelines made it seem pretty daunting to me when I submitted my first book. I eventually found that LibreOffice (free download) could format correctly while OpenOffice (also free) could not, and then running it through Calibre (also free) put it in an EPUB format that could be uploaded directly. Now it's pretty easy, but I had to do a lot of hard work to make it that way. Notice all the free stuff; I didn't want to spend a penny on this project until I made sure it was possible to complete it. Formatting the Table of Contents for hyperlinks was the hardest part.



message 1199: by Martyn (new)

Martyn Halm (amsterdamassassinseries) | 915 comments Ken wrote: "I replaced all straight quotes with the leading curly quote, and then had to manually replace half of the leading curly quotes with trailing ones. I had to go through it several times, because it seemed that the search and replace procedure somehow missed quite a lot of them, and I found new ones with each search."

That's because most programs don't recognize the em-dash as a letter, so that messes up the smart quotes.

So if you do what I said, it will cost you about two seconds, depending on the power of your CPU. And I work with 100,000 word documents.

Straight quotes>replace all em-dashes and double hyphens with XX (or XXX, but not X because that would mess up all the xylophones), change straight quotes into curly smart quotes. Now all your quotes turn in the right direction. Change XX back to em-dash and presto.


message 1200: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 30, 2014 12:52PM) (new)

Linda, I think you're right. The worst written book I read (part of) lately had several glowing, 5-star reviews. If you look at my books, all fairly recent and with a number of sales and downloads, I have no reviews at all, and that's the way I want it if the other choice is dishonesty. One way to make it better would be for the authors who publish mainly for their friends, relatives, and other in-groups to post a disclaimer to that effect. However, that's not likely to happen, so it would seem that we will just have to live with the stigma. That is, unless a non-profit group could be established to award some kind of "seal of approval" to be sported by the books that pass muster.

And em-dashes are important. ;-)


back to top