Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
I agree, being a first time SP author I have come to the conclusion that my book has to evolve. Especially since it is part of a series. I cannot afford an editor at this time, but I can take constructive criticism along with direct references and make the changes. Maybe I should of waited until I hired an editor, maybe I was way to anxious and excited? I recently just joined Goodreads, I don't know if there are people who edit for free, but maybe SP authors should have a label, "Warning" LOL. But I agree, a constructive review can warn a reader in a good way. And if an author can't take a bad review, they should not have put it out for people to read. Doesn't matter how well your book is edited, someone is not going to like it. I have seen 5 star reviews on books that make me think crack was legalized and 1 star reviews on books that make me think it was legalized and being handed out for free. Everyone has an opinion and is free to express it, hopefully its in a helpful and honest way.
Tura wrote: "I don't know how it helps authors either if no-one has the honesty to point out how they could improve."I don't think reviews are meant to point out to authors how they could improve. That's what critique circles and beta-readers are for. Writers should make sure they have reached a level that is at least equal to trade publishing mid-list authors before they publish. If they want feedback, they should post their writing on blogs or the aforementioned critique circles.
I take issue with self-publishing authors who treat paying customers as beta-readers. You should have that sorted before you publish. By using readers as involuntary beta-readers you take a dump in the communal bath. I don't feel bad for telling people who shit in the communal bath to take their shit and remove themselves.
Lisa wrote: "It's possible to leave a one star review and still not be cruel to the author, who perhaps was a young 12 year old just getting started in life. There's always a way to encourage that person to keep trying."I don't really care if someone is 12 or 92. If you publish a book, you make a promise to a reader. Failure to live up to that promise is 'fraudulent advertising'.
J.H. wrote: "I agree, being a first time SP author I have come to the conclusion that my book has to evolve. Especially since it is part of a series. I cannot afford an editor at this time, but I can take constructive criticism along with direct references and make the changes. Maybe I should of waited until I hired an editor, maybe I was way to anxious and excited?"I think maybe you should've joined a writer's group or critique circle before you went ahead and pushed the publish button. Constructive criticism is not the task of a reviewer. In a writer's group, you'd receive the criticism you could use to hone your craft and polish your work before you publish.
Publishing prematurely seems to be the main risk of the convenient publish button. Why wait? Well, maybe to avoid the situation that other people have to point out that the author wandered naked out of the house into the rain.
If writers share their work in a critique group and it stinks, they'll get plenty of pointers on how to remedy the situation, but once they publish they made their bed and they'll have to sleep in it.
SO true. Remember that you only get one chance to make a first impression. If the book that I pay good money for is clearly a first draft, full of typos and idiocies, I will certainly never spend one thin dime on anything by that writer ever again. If you just want to shove one crapalicious book out onto a helpless and unsuspecting universe, fine. If you want repeat business (also known as a career!) think carefully.
Brenda wrote: "SO true. Remember that you only get one chance to make a first impression. If the book that I pay good money for is clearly a first draft, full of typos and idiocies, I will certainly never spend o..."The worst thing that happens is that these premature publishers don't just wreck their own career, but also perpetuate the stigma of self-publishing as an outlet for writers who are too much in a hurry to make a buck to take their time learning what's necessary to be in this profession.
As a result, the worthwhile authors (who self-publish to avoid the skewed contracts of trade publishing or the insistence of acquisition editors to adhere to a formula that will result in commercial mass appeal) will also be shunned by readers because of this stigma.
Brenda wrote: "SO true. Remember that you only get one chance to make a first impression. ...If you want repeat business (also known as a career!) think carefully. "I'm in full agreement here! As self-published authors, there is no deadline but your own and no reason to rush, other than your own excitement over having written a book.
@J.H. -- When you say "I cannot afford an editor at this time, but I can take constructive criticism along with direct references and make the changes. Maybe I should of waited until I hired an editor, maybe I was way to anxious and excited?", that tells me right then and there that you should have waited because yes, you were way too anxious. Is that picky of me to point out? I'm not doing it to be mean (I'm actually quite pleasant), but want to show you what stood out to me when I read your post.
I get the excitement factor, I do. But it's hard to listen to so many authors (not picking on you, J.H., because there are many out there) who say they can't afford an editor but who don't take the time to save up for one and simply wait. Waiting is hard. And not all editors are expensive. Some may even be willing to work out a deal with you, so you don't have to wait as long.
You want people to read your book. You should also want people to read your second—and third, and fourth.
You don't need to pay for beta readers, if you write SF, fantasy or horror. Go here: http://critters.org/It's cooperative. You read other people's ms, and they read yours.
If you write romance, run, do not walk, to the Romance Writers of America. They have vast resources to help up and coming romance writers.
Regarding our choice of words in reviews:Elwood P. Dowd: Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
Lisa wrote: "...It's possible to leave a one star review and still not be cruel to the author, who perhaps was a young 12 year old just getting started in life. There's always a way to encourage that person to keep trying."Lisa, 'cruel' is rather subjective, no? It also presumes intent, whether warranted or not. IMO, such terms are not wholly (or necessarily) relevant re: book reviews, and frankly, continued use of the same may contribute to some author meltdowns and/or F&F nonsense.
Similarly, why muddy the waters further and tack on the notion of encouragement? Dangerous in that it seems to require reviewers to word their opinions 'nicely' and write 'constructive' reviews. At bottom, a book review focuses on the book at hand, yes? Whether or not the reviewer chooses to go beyond that is the person's prerogative, but your statement almost seems to imply that a less-than-glowing review should include some pats on the head, for lack of a better term.
Golly, I can't even get past reading the blurb for Guardians of Life and Death Book One. I feel as if I'm listening to Mongo from Blazing Saddles. And the covers are atrocious.I'm off to scrub my eyeballs clean now.
I appreciate getting honest reviews that tell me how the reader feels about the book. Anything they say, of course, is their attempt to describe how they feel, however some reviewers tend to forget that. They start lecturing on grammatical structure, literary techniques, whether or not a sentence is exposition, etc.Lets remember that, for the most part, the people here who are reviewing books are amateurs. Even those who get money for writing should still be cautious about climbing up on a soap box and jumping down to squash one of those "awful" authors.
As an experiment I posted, in two different topics, the first three paragraphs to Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea (slightly altered to be about an old woman and the forest) to see what kinds of critiques I would get.
I got some very kind and helpful responses where the reader told me what they thought, why they thought it, and encouraged me to continue trying to perfect my craft. That's fine - everyone's tastes are different, not everyone likes Hemingway, and it was kind of them to share their opinions with me.
However, I also got some rather harsh critiques. In one instance the person said their eyes rolled back in their head from all of the long sentences and exposition, and that writing like that should be rejected. (Interestingly enough, it appears that comment was removed after I revealed what I had done).
My point is that we are all Bozo's on this bus. I haven't met anyone on here who is qualified to do more than give their opinion - and I don't believe that the anonymity of the internet provides any excuse for opinions to be rude, strident, or finger-pointing.
Lisa wrote: "I do still want to speak out for compassion when leaving reviews :).It's possible to leave a one star review and still not be cruel to the author, who perhaps was a young 12 year old just getting..."
I have to praise my Mother and Disney for teaching me the Thumper quote: "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all." It's fine to tell the truth, but civility, and helpfulness go a long way. In my humble (and unprofessional) opinion, if you feel you have to LIE in order to find something nice to say, maybe you shouldn't.
Richard wrote: "In the old days, some folks used to say that Irene Iddesleigh* was the worst novel ever written... (The author, A.M. Ros, published it herself.) Now people say the book is So awful, ..."My eyes! My eyes! That red font has really got to go.
But very good points on videos, movies, art, etc. I guess it's only now that writing can get the same kind of exposure. Good and bad.
Ron, I agree with you that reviews are always going to be subjective. But I do think that one can objectively determine if basic grammar rules are being followed. At the moment, that's probably the best we can hope for from any vetting website.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "At bottom, a book review focuses on the book at hand, yes? Whether or not the reviewer chooses to go beyond that is the person's prerogative, but your statement almost seems to imply that a less-than-glowing review should include some pats on the head, for lack of a better term."Agreed.
You don't even have to go to the bottom to understand that a review is advice to readers whether a book is worthy of their time (and maybe money) and is not intended to either educate the author or encourage the author to improve or write more books.
By the way, I see that complaint by writers all the time, "this review was not specific about my flaws, I couldn't learn anything from it".
So what?
The reviewer has no obligation towards the writer at all. Not to educate, not to coddle, not to be nice and gentle and encouraging.
If an author publishes a book prematurely, they cannot demand to be handled with kid gloves.
Sometimes breaking rules can be a good thing :-)I have been told, repeatedly, that it is "bad" practice to write in first person - yet sometimes that is exactly what is needed. First person narration will often help the reader to identify with the character, plus it gives you the option of showing, later, that the character wasn't seeing the world clearly.
I have also been told that if I MUST write in first person then I really shouldn't switch the POV, later in the same book, to 3rd person. There are times to violate this "rule" as well.
In any event, I completely agree that there are some books out there that I really don't like, and that many of them contain bad grammar. I'm sure I'm guilty of bad grammar from time to time as well. I just like to think that we can, in our reviews, try not to eviscerate the author.
I figure the reviews are for people who may be interested in reading the book. If you want to show how smart you are and write up an in-depth analysis of grammar, sentence structure, etc ... there are other forums. Maybe you should see if the author will hire you as an editor.
Ron wrote: "... Anything they say, of course, is their attempt to describe how they feel, however some reviewers tend to forget that. They start lecturing on grammatical structure, literary techniques, whether or not a sentence is exposition, etc.Lets remember that, for the most part, the people here who are reviewing books are amateurs. Even those who get money for writing should still be cautious about climbing up on a soap box and jumping down to squash one of those "awful" authors. ...
I haven't met anyone on here who is qualified to do more than give their opinion - and I don't believe that the anonymity of the internet provides any excuse for opinions to be rude, strident, or finger-pointing."
Ron, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. But a couple of points:
Firstly, there is no 'for the most part'. Paid reviews are not permitted on GR, period. (Of course, actual enforcement of that is up for debate--and that's a whole 'nother topic.)
Secondly, what relevance of 'qualifications'? I think that most already accept that a book review is merely a person's thoughts & opinion about a book, not a dissertation or thesis required to be substantiated by credentials and/or citations to other works in order for it to be valid.
Frankly, I'd trust the knowledge & background of some thoughtful, long-time readers over many current authors. Especially when I see actual evidence that some authors are utterly ignorant re: items basic to fiction writing (such as proper English and narrative forms). Moreover, I may not have any degrees or certificates in English, teaching, creative writing, etc. But I assure you that I have sufficient grounding & experience to 'lecture' on grammar and syntax if I so choose. (Frex: whether or not a sentence is
As for 'rude, strident, or finger-pointing'... Again, subjective words--what you find 'rude' or 'strident' may not be so for others. You also seem to make blanket assumption that people freely voice negative opinions simply b/c it's anonymous/done on the 'net. As if they wouldn't do the same IRL. I'm sure that may be true for some but not for others.
Sometimes, a duck is just a duck, no matter what pretty words are used or how it's dressed up. And a poorly-written book is simply that--and there are clear, objective standards for that determination in some cases.
etc: correct name
Mary wrote: "I have to praise my Mother and Disney for teaching me the Thumper quote: "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothin' at all." It's fine to tell the truth, but civility, and helpfulness go a long way. In my humble (and unprofessional) opinion, if you feel you have to LIE in order to find something nice to say, maybe you shouldn't."Yes, but Thumper was a child when told that, no? Call me odd but I don't apply the same standards & expectations for adults as I do a child.
I also have different modes of behaviour & expectations based on the circumstances. Some people may not and that's perfectly fine. But for me, casual, social interactions are very different from business/commercial ones.
Ron wrote: "...I figure the reviews are for people who may be interested in reading the book. If you want to show how smart you are and write up an in-depth analysis of grammar, sentence structure, etc ... there are other forums. Maybe you should see if the author will hire you as an editor."Yes, reviews are for people interested in a particular book. But why do you assume that readers don't care *how* said book is written when deciding? And why would a reviewer noting that a book is poorly-written = 'show[ing] how smart [they] are'? By referencing other forums, are you actually stating that such statements are not 'appropriate' in reviews?
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "But why do you assume that readers don't care *how* said book is written when deciding? And why would a reviewer noting that a book is poorly-written = 'show[ing] how smart [they] are'?"I'm with Karma on this one. I'm not trying to convince people how smart (or not) I am when I list the technical things that wrecked the book I'm reviewing. Those very things (grammar, sentence structure, lack of editing) are what stand out as a glaring problem when I read.
I will put up with a lot of plot devices, odd quirks and unlikable characters, but can't abide a lack of editing, or poor writing in general. That's why I read the bad reviews first: if the reviewers don't mention those technical issues, I'll still give the book a try.
Conversely, the most raved-about book will never get my money if the bad reviews mention word usage problems, bad punctuation or other smarty-pants issues.
I think we've all made our personal positions clear. Some of us believe we should be compassionate in our reviews (this does not mean falsely rating a book higher than it should be). Some of us believe that independent writers are polluting the pool and ruining things for the "good" writers. At least one person believes: "It's possible to leave a one star review and still not be cruel to the author, who perhaps was a young 12 year old just getting started in life. There's always a way to encourage that person to keep trying."
And at least one person feels "They should not support 'crap artists'" and "I don't really care if someone is 12 or 92. If you publish a book, you make a promise to a reader. Failure to live up to that promise is 'fraudulent advertising'."
We are all entitled to our opinion. I think that some people will continue to publish books that others don't approve of, and I think that some people will ignore compassion when they write a review. That's the way life is, and nobody here is going to change it.
Are reviews for the benefit of the author? In that case a spoonful of sugar ('compassion') might help the medicine go down.Or are reviews in the nature of consumer reports? If I buy a Ford and the car is a lemon, does Ford deserve compassion? Or do I squawk about how they have taken my money and given me a hunk of junk?
If I pay money for something, I am not making an unreasonable demand when I expect to get what I paid for. If the product does not deliver, it is only reasonable for me to warn other customers that Fords are lemons.
You might possibly change this equation by giving me the book, and asking me to read and review it. By pulling money out of the calculation you might get me out of Consumer Report mode. Or you might not.
Lynda wrote: "Golly, I can't even get past reading the blurb for Guardians of Life and Death Book One. I feel as if I'm listening to Mongo from Blazing Saddles. And the covers are atrocious.I'm off to scrub my..."
-Runs screaming hysterically after reading the Blurb-
Comment to be continued.
Ron wrote: "...We are all entitled to our opinion. I think that some people will continue to publish books that others don't approve of, and I think that some people will ignore compassion when they write a review. That's the way life is, and nobody here is going to change it."FTR, as a reader, it's got nothing to do w/ 'approval' and all about the waste of my time and/or money. Which is why, after some unpleasant and/or bitter personal experiences, I am now highly unlikely to read any books by NTM authors, much less *pay* for any of them. And this goes to the topic of this thread.
As for compassion in book reviews? Sadly, I tend to associate that word w/ the poor, the needy, the less fortunate, etc.--not for commercial transactions.
ETA: But thanks for not answering any of my queries to you.
Lynda wrote: "...I'm not trying to convince people how smart (or not) I am when I list the technical things that wrecked the book I'm reviewing. Those very things (grammar, sentence structure, lack of editing) are what stand out as a glaring problem when I read. ..."Yes, same for me. I have a personal 'we're all human' gauge. But repeated instances of the same (especially if the phrase 'riddled w/ errors' begins to apply) directly impact my enjoyment of the book. So why bother continuing to read it if the experience is marred by such basic issues? Got more than enough other books to read. :)
Brenda wrote: "If I pay money for something, I am not making an unreasonable demand when I expect to get what I paid for. If the product does not deliver, it is only reasonable for me to warn other customers that Fords are lemons."This is something many self-publishers don't seem to understand. As soon as you publish your book, it becomes a product. The cover is the shingle, the blurb is the advertisement, and the content is the product. And the product has to measure up to the promise made by the author.
Every time I see an author bitch and moan about a low rating or negative review, they place blame with the reader/reviewer. 'They don't understand XXX, they fail to grasp this or that concept, they didn't read far enough to find out XXX'. But that all means that the author failed the reader, not the other way around. If a reader 'doesn't understand' something, maybe you have craft issues that prevent the reader from fully engaging with the story. If they don't 'read far enough to find out XXX', maybe your story or style is just not compelling enough.
You have to engage the reader, and the reader has to be compelled to keep on reading. If you fail to live up to that, perhaps you're not as good a writer as you perceive yourself to be.
Brenda wrote: "You might possibly change this equation by giving me the book, and asking me to read and review it. By pulling money out of the calculation you might get me out of Consumer Report mode. Or you might not."
Your investment in the book is not just the amount paid, but also the time you spent reading the book (and time is a valuable commodity that can only be spent once) and the energy you use to write a review.
If I give you my e-book, I might save you 3-5 dollars, but in reality, I don't spend anything. My e-book is a digital file on my hard-drive. I could email it to the whole world, and it wouldn't cost me anything. But, even if you calculate the cost you save (3-5 dollars) and you divide it against the hours you spent reading and reviewing, your 'wages' would be below that of a beggar in Delhi.
And professional reviewers rarely if ever pay for the books/items they review, but that doesn't make the review biased.
I send review copies of Reprobate to any person who wishes to review them, and all I ask in exchange is a honest review. Not a favorable/critical/extensive review, just a honest one.
If you don't like what you read, put that in your review. If you like it but have reservations, please post them in your review.
I prefer the honest reviews for two reasons:
- your opinion of my book gives me an impression of how my readers perceive what I wrote,
- even if you post a negative review, the negative points in your review might be positive for another reader.
What I don't do, is consider a review 'feedback' for me in order to improve my writing. I have beta-readers and editors for feedback. With them, I have a 'contract' that they get to read my work before it is published in order to receive constructive criticism intended to improve the manuscript.
If someone reads my book and doesn't want to do a review, but wants to provide me with feedback instead, I can also be contact directly through my blog and email. If they buy my book and don't want to write a review, that's their prerogative.
There's a statistic that says that the ratio of sales versus reviews is 1000 sales for 1 review. With my books I'm pleased to say the ratio of sales/reviews about 50 sales per review. Apparently, many readers seem compelled to review my work, and I am extremely grateful for the time and energy they spend to share their opinion.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "But why do you assume that readers don't care *how* said book is written when deciding?"You are absolutely correct, they do care.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote:"And why would a reviewer noting that a book is poorly-written = 'show[ing] how smart [they] are'?"
Once again you've seen through my faulty reasoning. I don't know how I could have implied such a thing.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote:"By referencing other forums, are you actually stating that such statements are not 'appropriate' in reviews?"
Clearly I am wrong here. I don't even understand how referencing other forums would imply that, so if I implied it then I must be mistaken.
I believe I have now answered your questions, and apologized for being so stupid. I hope that this will now be the end of it. If you feel I need additional public lashing we can set up a new topic for that purpose and not clog up this group with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=...
Clearly, my allusive hint isn't sufficient. So: I had eye surgery this summer. My vision is limited, and I allocate it carefully. I no longer finish books that seem to be turkeys; life is too short. I don't read free books. I have to save my reading for things that I either have to read professionally, or that I really enjoy.
Brenda wrote: "I no longer finish books that seem to be turkeys; life is too short. I don't read free books. I have to save my reading for things that I either have to read professionally, or that I really enjoy."I understand. I used to read books to the end, regardless of the quality. I'm much more discerning now. Life is short indeed, and choices have to be made.
I only check out a book if the cover and blurb attract my attention. And the content better deliver, or I'll delete it straight away. Or, if the book is extremely onerous, I write a scathing review to warn others away from wasting their time on it.
I have to agree with both sides of this story.I think it would be great if all people could be tactful in their criticism and not get personal and mean-spirited. That said everyone has a different idea of what mean-spirited is. Sometimes I sound aggressive when I speak excitedly and family members of mine think I'm actually upset with them or coming after them or lecturing them or whatever; they don't like it. I on the other hand have to keep saying, look, you should know me by now, and know that I sound like this when I get excited, good and bad . Then there are plenty of people who don't like to discuss serious matters or look at someone they know "realistically" because they think it's negative or mean. I call it realistic, they call it pessimistic. We're probably never going to all agree on what exactly constitutes "mean" but I'm sure we all know it when we see it, feel it, act it out, and write it down.
But what about the fact that we're all different? What about the fact that I think Lynda has said before that she's an editor? Others here are successfully published authors? Some may be teachers, bankers, musicians, whatever. Point being, I don't see anything wrong with someone discussing technicals in a review, that may just be how they do things. If Lynda didn't take up arms about poor editing then I'd be surprised. If a teacher didn't review a book like they grade papers, to some degree, I'd be shocked. I don't like slow stories most of the time, I'm going to reference that in a review if need be. Some people like that. Should they be mad at me for talking about how long it took the story to "get going" in my opinion!?
Everyone here I think has made the point that people are publishing prematurely because they can, after all writing takes A LOT of patience. I debated trying my hand at a novel because of this. Time and time again I read interviews about books where the author said it took them years to write the book. What if it takes me years, I've thought, and it amounts to nothing? That's a hard pill to swallow. So I know what I'm getting in to.
What about the authors who don't? While many of us don't want to hurt their feelings their do we then just ignore their lack of respect for not taking the craft seriously? Should we show them pity because they prematurely published because everyone these days wants instant gratification? Mercy sure, pity no.
That's what Self-pub is: Instant Gratification .
People want to pop pills and have plastic surgery before putting serious time and sweat into exercising. People of all sizes want to complain it's McDonald's fault they can't lose weight but complain on the other end that exercising is too hard and takes too much time.
Writing is catching up to the rest of the world and its instant gratification. That's how I see it. People want to put their story down and be praised but not criticized because that's not what they signed up for, as if they rewrote the laws and now you can sign up for something and be different than everyone else who signed up. Writers are just one more group of people who have joined those who feel entitled and do not like to feel uncomfortable.
I read some of the blurb of "Guardian of Life and Death Book One" that was posted in this thread. And I'm sorry, but that was bad. If I were to read the book or even finish the blurb, do I tell the author hey you tried your best, good for you but it wasn't my cup of tea thereby giving them the impression that it was an okay book just not for me when it was in fact poorly written? It's worse, IMO, in a genre like Sci-Fi where the reader has to follow along with new terms and worlds and species, the imagination of someone else entirely and yet I also have to try and follow along with your awkward, unprofessional writing? No. I'd rather find a book that allows me to enjoy it and be entertained, which is after all, why I picked up a book in the first place: to be entertained.
While I wouldn't say authors "promise" their reader something I have to admit that this is kind of true; we promise entertainment (unless it's nonfiction). Why should the reader put more work into figuring out what the heck we wrote than we did writing it?
I am a professional author, and I also teach writing classes. And I say to my pupils: if anything can deter you from a career writing fiction, you should let it. The same thing is said, BTW, to ballerinas, actors, folk musicians, and so on. Writing novels is one of the arts, just like getting up on stage. There is enough competition that you had better be damn good. And there is no point in complaining if you are not. It is the ONLY criterion. A kinda-sorta-OK ballerina is going to find it hard.
With all the good intentions in the world I say, if you haven't already go check out "Guardians of Life and Death Book One". Pretend you're a teacher, a professor, or one of many students in a peer review group, a writing group, a college discussion section, what have you. Now tell us, tell yourself, tell someone else:
Is that a good cover? Look, they have many other books, are those good covers? Well thought out and well put together? Do you see effort? Care? Even concern for their subject, for their own story?
Read two pages of the blurb. If you were in this person's peer group would you give it back and say good job just because they wrote it at all? Or would you mark the page to hell? Can you not see that they essentially did not and do not care how they wrote what they wrote? And while you feel remorse for them lets say, and compassion for the time they did put into their writing, do you not also feel at least slightly perturbed that this may be the work that readers trip over ahead of yours? That they may never get to your piece because they ran into 5 of these and totaled their vehicle AND are sick of reading to boot!?
Don't you want to grow and improve yourself? Join the ranks of successful writers because you earned it because you sat your a** in that chair and wrote and revised and edited and really tried, not because someone took pity on you?
I had multiple versions of my cover when I was trying to put it together and I beat and bruised my work. If it looked like WordArt to me, or I thought the neat background color gradient showed that I put it together just like that I rolled my eyes at myself. Don't we all see that this person took a picture, either themselves or borrowed it, then inserted some red text and said "Sweet, now I want other people to enjoy this." Are you enjoying it?
Okay, so I've run over this horse with my bike, rollerblades, my car, my neighbors' cars, the wheels of my trash can, yeah I know. But, come on, think about the standards we were held to in Middle school, High school, heck if you dropped out of either than think about elementary school!!!!! And yes, break the rules, but if you can't get the basics of writing down then you've not even made it to story rules!
Moving along now...Have a nice day everyone.
;-)
eLPy
And that wasn't an attack on any one person or post here, just the subject matter. I feel bad for that author. And you can see that they're just going to keep pumping out the same quality works because essentially, THEY DON'T CARE.That's what bothers me, and it shouldn't, because I have stories and poems and blog entries to write myself and worry about their quality. Never mind the list of books I'd like to read.
As said before, a trade-pub author has a team behind them, multiple personalities and opinions to troubleshoot and do damage control. If a Self-pubbed author doesn't have this capacity inside them selves, or even to seek it out, then we wind up with the first draft that someone didn't have the patience to keep working on.
Okay, last then I promise I'm out... then there are those of us have done far better work that this example but have still fallen short. These people get grouped with all the rest so naturally they take up arms in that camp. But that's the part where we're supposed to have thick skins because we entered into a craft, an art, and entertainment is a brutal industry and always has been. Put your gloves on, and leave camp. If you can't afford an editor and can't find one pro bono then be patient until you can't OR suffer the consequences.
Cheers!
eLPy
eLPy wrote: "Everyone here I think has made the point that people are publishing prematurely because they can, after all writing takes A LOT of patience. I debated trying my hand at a novel because of this. Time and time again I read interviews about books where the author said it took them years to write the book. What if it takes me years, I've thought, and it amounts to nothing? That's a hard pill to swallow. So I know what I'm getting in to."Whether the activity of writing (including research and study) takes years is irrelevant, because writing is not just about the finished product. If you don't enjoy the work, any activity towards the desired goal will feel like an arduous task.
I wrote for twenty years in private before I published, but I enjoyed every single minute. I enjoy writing. I need a creative outlet, and writing suits me best.
I didn't like querying agents and publishers. I didn't like negotiating terms. I didn't like the feeling of getting screwed over in publishing contracts. I liked commissioning a cover. I like interviews and writing blog articles. I don't like 'promoting'. But all that is not writing. It's publishing, which (to me) is not as enjoyable as the writing.
So don't focus on how long you will need to write to create a novel. My first novel took years, went through countless edits and was eventually cannibalized to create Reprobate. When I published Reprobate, Peccadillo was halfway done and I wrote 50,000 words, got the manuscript beta-read and edited the manuscript for publication in 2.5 months. I wrote Rogue from scratch between February and July 2013. While Rogue was being beta-read I wrote Fundamental Error, which I published in August, then received feedback from my betas, edited Rogue and published in November.
My conclusion is that experience will allow you to write faster without losing quality.
eLPy wrote: "What about the authors who don't? While many of us don't want to hurt their feelings their do we then just ignore their lack of respect for not taking the craft seriously? Should we show them pity because they prematurely published because everyone these days wants instant gratification? Mercy sure, pity no."
I don't see a reason for mercy. In the Netherlands we have a saying, 'Wie zijn billen brandt, moet op de blaren zitten', which translates as, 'If you burn your buttocks, you'll have to sit on the blisters'. If you lack the patience to develop your craft and polish your work, and knowingly publish prematurely, you deserve everything people throw at you.
eLPy wrote: "That's what Self-pub is: Instant Gratification."
No, that's not what it 'is'. But that's how some 'writers' view it. If you compare digital self-publishing with, say, Youtube, you'll see both rank amateur snapshots and carefully crafted short films that could easily be featured at Sundance. But Youtube is not a shortcut to Sundance or fame. Just like publishing on Amazon is not a shortcut to fame. If you check out the people who successfully self-publish, you'll see that none of them have published prematurely.
eLPy wrote: "While I wouldn't say authors "promise" their reader something I have to admit that this is kind of true; we promise entertainment (unless it's nonfiction). Why should the reader put more work into figuring out what the heck we wrote than we did writing it?"
If you publish fiction, whether you offer it for free or against payment, you tell someone: I have a worthwhile story. Give me your time and I'll give you something you'll enjoy.
If you publish non-fiction, whether you offer it for free or against payment, you tell someone: I have valuable information. Give me your time and I'll improve your life.
Both are promises. Screw that up and you deserve to be ridiculed.
eLPy wrote: "... then there are those of us have done far better work that this example but have still fallen short."Not everyone who picks up a guitar will end up playing Madison Square Garden. Or even a local club. If you don't have what it takes to produce a professional book, put your stories on your blog or something.
Right, I think the odds of playing MSG are much lower than your Uncle's pub. We all have a place along the spectrum. If you're unhappy with 5th place then train harder.
eLPy wrote: "Why should the reader put more work into figuring out what the heck we wrote than we did writing it?"Martyn V. wrote: "If you publish fiction, whether you offer it for free or against payment, you tell someone: I have a worthwhile story. Give me your time and I'll give you something you'll enjoy.
If you publish non-fiction, whether you offer it for free or against payment, you tell someone: I have valuable information. Give me your time and I'll improve your life."
I think back to the awful "author tantrum" we were discussing a week or so ago, where the writer berated the reviewer for not understanding her characters (among many other complaints). I ended up writing a blog post about that after talking about those situations with an author friend, who pointed out that if the writer tells the story well, there should be no need to explain anything further when the reader finishes the book.
If I can't figure out your story or your character from the words you've written about them, then there's no reason for me to continue reading.
As far as reviews go, I compare them to road construction signs. Am I going to tell others to avoid the road that has obvious potholes and dangers, or is it my job to tell the road crew how to fix it?
I am frequently wrong about many (if not most things), and frequently misunderstood when I'm not. I'll go ahead and toss in my (hopefully) last word on the subject.I don't agree that all poor publishing is due to people who are lazy or don't respect the craft. There are lots of different niche books out there, that were only intended for a small audience. Books that are written by someone who is just trying to document the life of a dying parent, someone who is underprivileged and is looking for a way to share their life with those who don't understand what that is like, someone who is mentally or emotionally challenged (was that P.C. enough?) looking to connect with the world, someone who lives in a small town and wants to share what their life is like.
I understand your frustration. You don't want your works hidden by a mass of "poor" books. I don't want my serious books hidden either (I have written both niche and serious books). But I also support the right of those listed above to take a shot. And, sometimes you can find real gems in a field of rocks.
I'm sure that there are published authors out there who criticize all independent writers just as I hear criticism here about authors not caring and unwilling to put in the work. The published authors have gone through the extra work and hassle of dealing with publishing houses and some probably feel we are lazy for not doing the same. I don't agree with that, but it is something for us to think about before we start blasting other authors who we feel don't measure up to us. Every car on the road that is in worse shape than ours is a bucket of bolts.
I don't know how to get a "good" book to rise to the top except to continue your hard work with promotions, to write more "good" books and build up a following, and to try to get your work in front of as many faces as possible.
With regards to books like "Guardians of Life and Death Book One". I would never suggest that anyone give that book a higher rating than they think appropriate. However, I don't think that leaving a caustic comment for a review helps either potential readers or the author more than saying something less harsh. Do you think a 1-Star with the comment "This is a niche book and requires significant work before it is ready for a general audience" would do a poorer job of warning off readers than a 1-Star with the comment "This is pure cr*p. I wouldn't even line my garbage can with it" ? Yes - harshness is a subjective term, but refusing to even consider the emotional impact of your words pretty clearly nudges you to the harsh side of the line.
Someone said (not sure which forum) that YouTube did not destroy independent film making, and niche independent publishing won't destroy good literature. I agree. It may make us work harder, but nobody said it would be simple.
OK - I'm going to try to shut up now. If you have constructive ideas on how to help good books rise to the top without taking out our frustration on the authors of "poor" books, I would really like to hear them.
Brenda wrote: "You don't need to pay for beta readers, if you write SF, fantasy or horror. Go here: http://critters.org/It's cooperative. You read other people's ms, and they read yours.
If you write romance, ..."
And if you write mystery, go to Sisters in Crime. They have some male members, even though it was founded for female mystery authors.
http://www.sistersincrime.org/
The Guppies (the Great Unpublished) is such a good group within SinC that many stay with it once they are published.
It is perfectly OK to write anything you like. A memoir about the death of your dog, poetry about sunsets, anything you like. Go for it! And publish it on Amazon, if you want, so that your friends and family can read it. BUT if you demand money for it, then you are stepping into the marketplace. Rules change, in the Reaches. Know what you're doing!
Brenda wrote: BUT if you demand money for it, then you are stepping into the marketplace. Rules change..."I concede the point. You're right. If you put your book into the marketplace on the internet you have to expect a few flames now and then. If you want to be protected from that, don't put your book up for sale on the internet. The internet can be a nasty place where anonymity wipes out rules of polite society :-)
Lynda wrote: "eLPy wrote: "Why should the reader put more work into figuring out what the heck we wrote than we did writing it?"Martyn V. wrote: "If you publish fiction, whether you offer it for free or agains..."
OK I finally made it back after reading that blurb. Two things that get my goat are cliche's and lack of research, mostly lack of research.
Lack of research makes your writing less professional. If you are writing a story and you want to look more scientific so you provide the temperature of something in Kelvin. I saw someone mention in a post that it some comment or some such was so cold it was -273 kelvin. That must be freaking cold because 0 Kelvin is Absolute Zero. That is the temperature that all molecular movement stops. There is no other state of matter other than a solid at 0 K.
My next rant is like recognizing like. For example, if a wolf walks up to a dog, it will recognize it as a canine but not another wolf. Humans will recognize a humanoid alien as a bipedal primate but not as a human. A vampire will recognize an alien with characteristics of a vampire but recognizing that it is not a vampire.
I have the ability to suspend disbelief better than most. But if my BS detector starts flashing and klaxons go off in my head then it is over for a book.
Now, I say all this to get to this point. Many SPAs don't do their homework. They just throw some crap down and call it good. If you just throw some crap on a plate and call it caviar, I am not going to be able to suspend my disbelief that it is caviar. Same thing with a book. I think many readers feel the same way.
In reference to an author saying "they didn't get X" or "they just didn't understand character Y's motivation" I have one thing to say. If they don't get it then the author didn't give it to them. It is the author's book and their story. No one else should "get it" unless you show it to them in the text of the story. If I find myself saying in my head "they just didn't get it", I start trying to figure out why they didn't get it and what could I have done better to show it to them.
Wow that was all over the place wasn't it.
OT and directed to only one poster so feel free to ignore.Ron wrote: "Clearly I am wrong here. I don't even understand how referencing other forums would imply that, so if I implied it then I must be mistaken.
I believe I have now answered your questions, and apologized for being so stupid. I hope that this will now be the end of it. If you feel I need additional public lashing we can set up a new topic for that purpose and not clog up this group with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=..."
Tsk, tsk, Ron. A 'public lashing?
Your post is more representative of a pouty child. If you want to engage in a discussion/debate with various members, then be mature enough to accept that what you post may be questioned. Given that you're an author, I presumed (perhaps mistakenly) that you knew something about words, especially when they are strung together for meaning.
You wrote: "If you [general/universal 'you'] want to show how smart you are and write up an in-depth analysis of grammar, sentence structure, etc ... there are other forums. Maybe you should see if the author will hire you as an editor."
You wrote an if/then sentence. There was nothing *implied* re: other forums. You essentially stated that people who wanted to analyse grammar, etc. should do so elsewhere.
Frankly, such comment from an *author* set me aback. So I replied to your post, which was my way of giving you a chance to clarify what you meant. B/c I didn't want to believe that you actually meant what you wrote. But instead, you completely avoided my query--methinks b/c you were embarrassed & peeved at being caught left-footed on a public thread. But again, they were *your* words, sir.
FTR, you did not answer my questions; rather, you deflected again. Furthermore, I see no apology in your post. But I don't care b/c I neither asked for nor need one.
I wish you luck finding compassion from your readers.
ETA: I didn't bother w/ your YouTube link. That, too, seemed rather childish to me in this instance.
ETA2: '...If you put your book into the marketplace on the internet you have to expect a few flames now and then. If you want to be protected from that, don't put your book up for sale on the internet. The internet can be a nasty place where anonymity wipes out rules of polite society :-)'
FYI, the marketplace is not 'polite society'. Furthermore, authors benefit just as much from 'anonymity' on the 'net.
Lynda wrote: "As far as reviews go, I compare them to road construction signs. Am I going to tell others to avoid the road that has obvious potholes and dangers, or is it my job to tell the road crew how to fix it?"Ehm, if a road has potholes and dangers, I think I'll call whomever is responsible for the road and tell them to fix it.
I'd rather compare to a product, like a package of cookies that looks really good, but taste like crap. I would demand my money back and lambast the company in public for failing to deliver on their promise.
Similarly, if I can sample a book and it seems to have the potential to be good, but after I download the book the content beyond the sample deteriorates and fails to deliver on the promise, I will write a scathing review.
Ron wrote: "I don't agree that all poor publishing is due to people who are lazy or don't respect the craft. There are lots of different niche books out there, that were only intended for a small audience. Books that are written by someone who is just trying to document the life of a dying parent, someone who is underprivileged and is looking for a way to share their life with those who don't understand what that is like, someone who is mentally or emotionally challenged (was that P.C. enough?) looking to connect with the world, someone who lives in a small town and wants to share what their life is like."I'm talking about fiction here. Not niche books.
Someone trying to document a dying parent? Memoir.
Sharing experience of being underprivileged or living in a small town? Non-fiction.
If you check my 'scathing' reviews, they are all about fiction writers who promise a good story and fail to deliver.
I also mention writing a blog. Most people who want to share their experiences, whether it's growing up underprivileged or in a small town or taking care of their ailing grandmother, are better off writing a blog. A blog is like a public diary, meant to share your life with others. If it resonates with other people, they will read your stuff, but they will rarely ridicule you for not living up to a professional standard. We accept that blog writers are amateurs. Sometimes they are gifted, often they are inane, but it doesn't matter, because the intent is not commercial.
If you publish fiction, you need to tell a story, and tell it convincingly.
If you publish non-fiction, you need to be able to impart knowledge, and back it up with experience.
If you publish satire or comedy, you better be witty or funny.
You are trying too hard to be an egalitarian. While everybody might have the 'right' to self-publish, that doesn't automatically makes them deserving of applause.
Have you ever been to an open mic night at a stand-up club? People who think they're funny get up and do their shtick. If the shtick isn't good enough, they get heckled and booed off the stage.
Is that fair?
I think it is.
Nobody tells you to get up the stage. But if you do get up that stage, you better perform, or you'll reap the ridicule.
I have conceded the point, and it still goes on. Brenda really did convince me of the flaw in my reasoning. I really am ready to move on.I appreciate your attempts to toughen me up for bad reviews. I am sure that some will be worse than calling me a pouting child. BTW - the YouTube you chose not to watch is amusing. I am often childish like that, attaching small YouTube videos when I think they are appropriate. Just young at heart I guess.
With my niche book about half the readers wanted to come after me with a pitchfork. And I have posted on other forums which are moderated by someone slightly wilder than the Lord of the Flies. So I already understand getting scorched, although I appreciate the current efforts to remind me.
And KB, you are correct. I didn't answer your question directly. After additional consideration I realized that I carried over some issues from a different forum that were not relevant here. I was being lazy and just trying to get the whole thing to drop. I guess you are insisting that I stop being lazy and address the issue.
What concerns me about liberally given comments on grammar and style is that the author so often forgets that they are just giving their opinion. The comments are often given in a very "holier than thou" sort of way. I sometimes imagine I am standing in a cafe listening to critics go on about how totally awful and pointless Picasso's works are, and how any child could draw as well. (btw - I am not referencing comments directed towards my writing where such comments may well be justified, and I am not trying to compare myself with Picasso ... I am just trying to draw a parallel to the tone of the comments I have seen in other forums and in some reviews)
I just gave a thumbs up in The Source when screening the book The Sexual Adventures of Time and Space. I am the only one of the screeners who approved the book, and I can see how someone would disqualify it because the writing is so far out of the box. But I came at it with an open mind and allowed the author to lead me without rapid judgement, just to see where he was taking me. I believe his writing was effective and intentional and not just poorly edited.
That is why I did my Hemingway experiment, to try and illustrate that people's opinions differ widely and that sometimes "successful" SP authors have a very high opinion of themselves when dealing with novice SP authors. Because the Hemingway sample was presented by me, someone who is clearly just learning his craft, some of the comments were quite caustic and unnecessary. I am sure Papa rolled over in his grave.
I guess my bottom line is that if one is generous enough to take the time to comment on such issues as grammar and style, a little civility can help keep one from coming across as arrogant.
Ron wrote: "I have conceded the point, and it still goes on. Brenda really did convince me of the flaw in my reasoning. I really am ready to move on.I appreciate your attempts to toughen me up for bad reviews. I am sure that some will be worse than calling me a pouting child. ..."
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Brenda's point and my query were two different things. So to concede her point doesn't answer my questions.
And I wasn't attempting to 'toughen' you up for bad reviews. Frankly, I don't care b/c it's not my business or on my list of responsibilities. Instead, my focus was on your posts as it relates to the title of this thread: Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
Answer? Perhaps b/c some authors hold onto the notion of 'compassion'... and grammar 'lectures' not appropriate in book reviews.
Oh, and BTW, I didn't call *you* a 'pouting child'. I wrote that your *post* was 'more representative' of one--namely, in its tone. I see a difference in the words chosen but understand if you don't.
ETA: Unlike art, there really isn't much room for *opinion* re: grammar. Either it's correct or it's not; there are objective standards to make that determination.
I suggest to you that Hemingway (born 1899) was not a particularly good author to select for the experiment, and that therefore your results are questionable. His prose style was popular in its day but its use-by date is past.The other true thing is expectation. Post a bit of Hemingway on a porn board and the disappointment will be dire, I promise you.
I am informed that at main-line publishers people try this every now and then ("I'm going to submit a typescript of WAR AND PEACE and watch Random House reject it!") and it just annoys them.
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It's possible to leave a one star review and still not be cruel to the author, who perhaps was a young 12 year old just getting started in life. There's always a way to encourage that person to keep trying.
Lisa