Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
>
Why don't more people read Self-published authors?

The trick, of course, is to ensure you have enough time to still create a good quality product.
Ophelia

true, true!


One als..."
Also true but you need to realize that the ever widening opportunities for self-publishing and self-expression will only increase the number of self-published authors. The one thing that will really restrict the numbers from growing endlessly is the fact that when experiencing difficulties (lack of sales, poor reviews etc.) lots of SPAs will give up and go back to their day job so we will see a lot of one fail wonders but there will also be those who will press on and, perhaps and hopefully, succeed. Cheers

I hate marketing.
Self Published authors must do their own marketing. It isn't easy to learn how, to find the mix that works for you and to find the necessary time carved out of a busy schedule.
Without marketing, the general public doesn't know SPAs are out there or what their books are. Until SPAs can get their books out in front of the public, they won't be read as much as they deserve.

I hate marketing.
Self Published authors must do their own marketing. It isn't easy to learn how, to find the mix that works for you and t..."
Your presence in Goodreads is an important first step :)

I.e. a good marketer should *easily* earn back that money quite quickly. Just like hiring a high quality cover designer creates so many sales for you that their payment quickly is repaid.
Lisa

Vanessa wrote this on pg. 23 so I apologize if I'm running over any other comments but reading this thread can be a chore eh? Lol, so I just wanted to quick dance with this. I've heard a lot of us talking about editing and time in this respect but I have a special interest in Vanessa referring to time SPECIFICALLY. Okay eLPy, WHY?
Well because she's raised a good point. Do you wonder how many SPAs out there are SP because they can do it however they see fit, however fast they can do it, and not just because they don't have to go through the rejection process? I know I've brought this example up before, so I apologize, but I threw up in my mouth when I saw this person "publishing" all the time and offering books free and under a dollar say they wrote their new poetry book overnight! RAAAAA! I think what made it worse was I clicked on the link to the Amazon page because I was interested in reviewing the work, then I read a sample and was...disappointed (this is to be VERY polite). Then I read this person's blurb about the time they spent. Did they think that's impressive or did they consider that'd make them look...foolish?
As Vanessa referenced V. Henley writing a book in a year, I've read time and time again great, TP authors say it took them a year. I'm a fan of Nevada Barr, though I haven't been following so well in a while (not her fault), and I think she has a new book in her series each year. And these are authors who get paid to do this and who have done it for years with all the resources and people in place waiting for them to say okay, here's my manuscript.
What I'm getting after is that being a part of this craft (writing) means having some degree of patience. DISCLAIMER: I'm not attacking everyone or anyone who can write something of QUALITY in a short amount of time. Anywho, I myself years ago questioned my own attention span in terms of writing in other genres than poetry because my understanding was that it takes a great deal of time to put out a good story/article/novel/non-fiction book. I knew that I would have to do research, even for fiction, and get my ducks in order. Then I would no doubt have to revise and revise and have the story edited and then get it back to revise again. When I read something I wrote a week ago I usually feel different about it!
I think that with the advance of self-publishing people are coming up as writers who don't have what it takes and aren't interested in learning, or you might say they aren't willing to do what it takes, like so many other industries. How many singers are using auto-tune not just as an effect but to make themselves sound better than they do ALL THE TIME?
I believe this to be the case because like I said I've felt the ADD myself. I've posted in other threads, other sites this sort of comment. On deviantart.com many people spoke of how frustrating it is to have idea after idea in your head meanwhile you've got something in the fryer, on the skillet, and boiling as we speak. We're a culture of instant gratification and nowadays this applies to everything we do. If we don't want to wait to really put out a good book, we just want to write what we think is a cool story and see if we can get paid for it, we don't have to.
Okay...Good morning! Lol ;-)
eLPy
author of "That Which Lives Within" (poetry)
www.littlefacepublications.com

Yes of course there are those who have created masterpieces in minutes, and vice versa. A dear friend of my creates music and has put pieces together in a couple of hours that trump a great deal of tracks that hit the charts. My point in my previous comment was not to say by any means that quantity (in this case time) equals quality (in this case a well written book). Rather I want(ed) to emphasize that I think time is a sometimes necessary hurdle that self-publishing is jumping for people . I think the numbers show that there are more people producing less in less time than more in less time. Make sense?
If I need to clarify further I will based on responses I just may get. :-P
eLPy

That's over 60K words in 2.5 months. And I'm not a fast writer. Of course, I knew what I wanted to write, but I wrote Microchip Murder when Peccadillo was with my beta-readers, so I actually finished Peccadillo in six weeks. That's a little under 10,000 words per week, not counting the rewrites and edits.
However, you have to take into account that the majority of my research on Reprobate translated to Peccadillo (and later to Rogue: A Katla novel), and research takes an awful lot of time. With the actual research done and with a clear idea about the direction the story will take, writing down the words doesn't take much time.
Tolkien started writing The Lord of the RingsLOTR and finished the books forty years later. George R.R. Martin takes 5-6 years between writing each installment of A Song of Ice and Fire, 5 Book Set Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, A Dance with Dragons, each around 1500 pages in length.
Do both spent all day writing? No, most work is thinking and research.
So, I know authors who turn out quality books of around 65,000 words every two months. These are skilled wordsmiths who've taken years working and honing their craft before they published their first book.
I've been working and honing my craft for over twenty years before I published Reprobate: A Katla Novel. The two decades of honing my craft allow me to spend less time writing the sequels, because the characters are known to me, most of the research has been done, and I know the direction the books will take, more or less.
So I don't equate speed with the quality of writing. I do think it takes time to hone the craft--most of the authors I admire worked for years and years before they published.
There's a story about Picasso who sketched a patron's face in one stroke on a piece of paper and asked several thousands of dollars for it. The patron, who watched, told Picasso that it was a lot of money for something that took him thirty seconds. Picasso shook his head and told the patron it took him thirty years to be able to sketch something in thirty seconds.

Neither do I. Back in November, when I was writing for NaNoWriMo, we had a rather sad bout of squabble in the French NaNo community, from people who basically said that ALL fast writers necessarily wrote crap, cheated by writing down the same sentences over and over again, and other similar stupid things. It seems they did it because they wrote more slowly, felt a little discouraged, and, for some, were of that (typically French elitist) mind that a novel you don't take years to write isn't a true novel.
But they didn't take into account that when you've been writing for 10 years, you HAVE acquired reflexes and knowledge about how to write. I've experienced it myself, and I can vouch for it. I don't make nearly as many mistakes as I did 6 years ago. I'm able to go to the point much more quickly, and avoid useless descriptions. And when I fall into such pits, proofing the problematic part allows me to get rid of them in one go. My writing isn't perfect, and always in need of editing, of course. However, yes, you can write fast without your writing being meaningless drivel.
Finishing a first draft fast also have the serious advantage of allowing us short-attention-span-types to be done with one story. Otherwise we get bored and never get to finish anything, always jumping from one old thing to a new one. (In this, I totally agree with people like Stephen King, for instance.) Once the first draft is done, the rewriting and/or editing process can take place, and may even be longer; but at least we have something to work on.


That's harsh

Conceivably, one you've put in your 10,000 hours of practice and effort, you could smoothly create a wonderful novel after just a few polishing runs. At that point you're mostly throttled by your typing speed and little else.
I think it's good to acknowledge that that state exists, just like the state exists where someone could calmly meditate in the middle of a Black Friday shopping stampede.
But it's also good, especially for those new to the craft, to realize that it takes a while to get to that point.
I think eLPy brings up a good point. Many people in our modern culture have been raised in the "every child gets an award" atmosphere and expect that whatever they create should receive only praise and happy reviews, regardless of the quality level of what they've made. The mere fact that they tried should be enough.
Lisa

Which is a shame, because those reviews are in essence free editing support. Those people are pointing out the large hurdles which are preventing the book from thriving. If one person spends the time to comment about it, undoubtedly a hundred others saw it and (especially if it was noticeable in the preview text) decided not to buy because of it.
Something last night brought this to mind. I came across a review of one of my books, Looking Back. In that novel, the characters are in love as teenagers, but are forced apart. For six years they change drastically. When they then happen on each other, both looking quite different, and both emotionally wound up, they don't recognize each other.
The reviewer indicated that this was absolutely impossible. She said, if she loved someone, that twenty years could go by and she'd know them in an instant. So the entire premise of my book, to her, was flawed.
My initial counter would be that I live with this challenge. I like to give each of my heroes / heroines human flaws and in this story I chose to saddle them with one of my own. It doesn't even take six years in my case. I could go away for college and come back and not recognize people, especially if they've changed their hair style and are out of context. Heck, even current friends, if I run into them in a strange place or they've colored their hair or something, I won't recognize them.
But it's not the reader's fault for not understanding this flaw I gave the characters. It's *my* responsibility as an author to convey my sense to the reader. Clearly I didn't do that well enough.
If the flaw I choose is one that a reader doesn't even think exists, then it's even more important for me to portray it properly. I'm helping the reader learn something about the world around them.
I take that seriously and do my best to improve and polish the book to convey that information as well as I can.
I think some SPAs entrench, get upset that someone would say anything at all besides "5 stars / perfection!", and go turtle. That's a shame and a missed opportunity.
Lisa

Well, that sense of entitlement permeates society, but there's still the difference of finishing a story/writing a manuscript and publishing a book that is nowhere near publication ready.
I think that finishing a manuscript is worthy of praise, regardless of quality. As many people do not finish what they set out to do, finishing *anything* is worthy of praise.
Between a manuscript and a publication-ready (e-)book lie several hurdles that need to be overcome. No manuscript is flawless, and most manuscripts need scrutiny by dispassionate eyes who will pull no punches when it comes to shaping the manuscript into a book.
One extremely important thing people need to do is let go of the notion that their book is their 'baby'. If they can't do that, please lock your baby in a drawer and keep it there.
If you can let go of this overzealous emotional attachment and if you want your story to be read and enjoyed by others, you need to be more mercenary. You must be willing to kill your darlings. You need to murder excessive prose and superfluous characters. You have to imperil those you love most, so that they might show their strengths and weaknesses under duress.
If you can't do that, don't publish. Print out your story, give it to your loved ones who wouldn't dare offend your tender sensibilities and deny you your entitlement. Don't flog your messy, unedited, trite, overblown, bland and boring creation on paying customers, because they will tear you a new asshole for wasting their time.
And rightly so.

It's my first attempt. The reader does not care.
I had a really hard time while writing, for one reason or another. The reader does not care.
I wrote from my own experience - well, so did many others, the reader does not care.
My family and friends all loved it - and so on.
The unknown reader has a million books to choose from, and will go to whatever pleases her/him. You can't really argue anyone to liking your book, you can only show it to them.

I like this, Tura! As a reader, I go on the assumption that you have published a book; therefore, you have, by that very act, told me your book is complete in every sense. It has words, it has a cover, it has been edited. At least, this is what I think you are telling me when you publish.
If excuses were a valid...um...excuse, then I could tell people they should love my writing even though I'm not an author. I'm fine with creating blog posts, but I can't think of an original plot to save my life. By the rationale of those SPAs who don't bother to hone their craft, this shouldn't stop me from publishing a work of fiction and telling everyone it's not my fault if they don't like it.

I realize it might be an examination of semantics, but when I say "whatever they create should receive only praise and happy reviews" I mean the novel itself is going to be judged as a novel.
Yes, the author (a human) might get praise from friends and family for sticking with it and typing in all those words.
However, the book (a work of art) gets judged by readers on how well it fulfills its various tasks in its chosen genre. That is completely separate from the author being a valued or non-valued member of society.
I think that distinction is where many new authors have challenges.
Lisa


Thank you for your comments back to me on marketing.
About NaNo: The original purpose of NaNo was to get people to WRITE! Yes, some people do write crap, but they write.
My first attempt was pathetic. But it gave a tangible shape to my idea. When I rewrote the draft a couple of years later, that first attempt had shaped my thoughts and ideas. It let me write the story with conviction that second time.
Doing that challenge let's people abandon their reasons for constantly nitpicking every word and sentence and let themselves create something. It doesn't have to be good. It only needs to be written.
After NaNo is the time for nitpicking.
Question: How do you find a good critique group? I must use public access computers so chat and messaging, etc. are not permissible.

I think we're on the same page, Lisa. I have two young children, I know the sense of entitlement that permeates society and wants to coddle my children into become special snowflakes. I won't allow that to happen. I know the difference between an accomplishment and a performance.
That's why I said a manuscript is a private accomplishment and book is a public performance.
I read a statistic that said, 80% of all Americans have 'writing a book' on their bucket list.
For most of these people, this 'wish' will remain unfulfilled when they realize how hard it is to write a coherent story of 60,000 words or more.
To those who do manage to write a manuscript, the stack of pages is quite an accomplishment, since most people will not finish what they start.
Most of the people with aspirations to become a novelist become the people who will come up to an author and say, "You're a writer, ain't ya? I always wanted to be a writer, but I could never find the time. I can tell you my story and you write it down and we'll make lots of money."
Those who have the fortitude to write their own manuscript, need to test it. Much like an aspiring stand-up comedian has to leave the living room and go to an open mic night at a local comedy club to perform for strangers.
To test if your writing is 'publishable', you need to let go of the emotional attachment of regarding your work as 'your baby' and start seeing a 'product'. And a product requires diligent testing before it is put on the market.
If aspiring authors can put their ego aside and submit their work to a critique circle, they can grow and improve their skills and work on their manuscript with their new-found skills to turn the manuscript into a book that can rival the quality of other published books.
And if more authors would follow that procedure, self-publishing wouldn't be like rooting through a slush pile in search for something readable.
If my procedure feels like leaving your newborn outside on the crags to fend for its own, then perhaps your book isn't ready yet to be published. Which is one of the reasons why I publish reviews of books that I didn't finish or didn't even like, just to show any aspiring author what happens when you publish prematurely.

They're paying for these books, so after buying enough of these badly edited books, they're gun-shy about buying more. They start looking for big publisher labels again because no matter how bad the story in a big-pub book might be, at least it's readable.
Unwittingly, people who are self-publishing their not-ready-for-prime-time work are damaging the indie and self pub market by driving readers back to the big publishing houses.
Just offering that up for discussion.

http://www.critiquecircle.com/default...
ABOUT CRITIQUE CIRCLE: "Critique Circle is an online writing workshop for all authors, whether they write literary fiction, genre fiction, articles or short stories. Our purpose is to provide a place for writers to give and receive feedback on their work, and thereby learn from one another. The Critique Circle also includes forums as well as helpful writing tools for manuscript progress, submission tracking, character generation and more.
Workshops can be an invaluable resource to writers as they are a great way to get feedback and suggestions on their manuscripts, as well as providing a social forum for interaction with other writers. Online workshops such as the Critique Circle have the added advantage of being accessible at any time and from any location regardless of geography.
Membership to the Critique Circle is free and we welcome everyone interested in using an online forum to improve their writing skills while helping others improve theirs. Critique Circle is open to all genres, including science-fiction, fantasy, romance, children's novels, horror and suspense.
We've endeavored to make Critique Circle as writer-friendly and secure as possible. People have full control over their submissions, including the ability to either hide them from all other users or delete them at any time. People can also choose to have the stories only visible to those who regularly critique, or those who have critted in the past month. We believe this feature will make people feel more secure about using the critique forum.
Those supporting the Critique Circle also have the option to form their own private critique groups, integrated into the global critique system."
Hope that is what you're looking for?

That's why I'm 'tough' on books that have been published prematurely. Too many self-publishers seem to forget that writing is an occupation, requiring training, talent, skill and experience.
The worst thing about writing is that everybody *thinks* they can write without training, talent, skill and experience. And this is fed by the 'sense of entitlement' that is so rampant in modern society.

Apparently, I can't send a private message to Amber here. First time I've encountered that. It could be just me, but... Point one: Authors, especially ne..."
Thanks for the feedback. I might reconsider the price. I did some research on prices before I made that decision but it's flexible. Marketing is a learning process. I have no idea why you can't send a private message. I am still learning my way around Goodreads.

You want to sell as many copies as humanly possible, in order to spread the word and build the fans.
Every extra dime you charge drops your fan base, and therefore your ranking, and your overall sales, and it all becomes a downward spiral.
If instead you sell thousands of copies at a lower price, you end up making more money on this first book - and then lots more on subsequent books.
Lisa

Ouch. I don't blame them. I've seen the same thing. Admittedly, proofreading is hard -- and you probably need multiple parties to help. But it is essential. PS: I've gained new respect of late for the work that big publishers do. There's a reason you rarely see typos in the work they produce

Personally I wouldn't spend $6.99 on an unknown indie author. Readers are becoming more savvy and use the "look inside" feature to check out a book before spending. Spelling and grammatical errors in the first page turn me off and save me money as I won't buy a book that has not been edited.

Tha..."
Martyn, I think you hit the nail on the head. It is kinda like I always say about what people wear. Just because you can wear it doesn't mean you should. It is the same in Writing. Just because you can self-publish doesn't mean you should.

The question I want to ask based on that is, if you know a book is self-published, do you notice the errors more, even if there aren't any more than a traditionally published work would have?

No. My eyes and brain make any difference. If there's a mistake, and I'm bound to see it, whether the book is self- or traditionally published doesn't change anything. I don't ignore them more easily just because the book comes from a big publisher.

I just read the first three chapters of a self-published author's book - one who has been on the best-seller charts with previous books. She had an editor review her book before it was published, too. I think I found forty errors in the first two chapters alone.
When I hit problem after problem like this, it wears me down. I can't "turn off my brain" and stop seeing them. I'd rather move on and read something else that had more effort put into it. It also makes me wonder about the editor who let this go out like this.
Lisa

Call me a hypocrite lol. I AM a self-published author but I avoid reading indie books because I have had a pretty poor experience with them (a lot of what I read was boring and confusing). So the 'fear of the unknown' perhaps keeps me from reading more indies. So I'd just stick to the 'big guys' for now, and I mostly read 'classics' anyway. Yes, I am also not a hardcore reader. :D

I never check to see if a book is self-published prior to reading, but I'm with Lisa on this: once I start to notice errors, it's hard to stop noticing more and more. Occasionally, I'll grit my teeth and go on, but the story has to be spectacular for me to do so. More often than not, I move on.
It doesn't keep me from trying the next SPA, though. I'm an optimist.

Lisa

Really, it's like giving a dance performance without knowing the steps, or a musical recital without knowing the piece. No-one will ever notice how well you can dance or play or write because they keep noticing the mistakes.


Absolutely having good quality content is important. But if nobody ever finds it or opens it in the first place, the content level doesn't even become an issue. It's simply never seen.
J.J. -
I agree completely. Social media is amazing. A self-published author can compete - almost on a level playing field - with any published author. Their book is right on the same "shelf" on Amazon, their book comes up in the same search results list, and it all comes down to that marketing. A perfect cover, a perfect blurb, and then high quality content to back it up.
I'm doing a free offer of one of my books today, and I can get thousands of downloads of it. If I find even a few more fans who like my writing style, and who then support the series, it means more funding for my charity. So it all comes down to that marketing, to get the content out there and known about.
Lisa

Absolutely. Even with an editor and three professional proofers, I found a sentence in one of my novels that was missing a (rather important) word. Somehow, not only did I read past it in the writing, but so did everyone else. Funny thing is that no readers have complained about it, so it seems everyone is reading right past it. Even so, I fixed it in the next edition, which will also have a new cover. :-)

Sure, there are some books that are full of grammar errors, but on occasion I find some in traditionally published books.
That reminds me of a funny story about an erotica author that found a horrific typo after publishing the book. So funny, and a good lesson to editor to make sure your stuff is proofread!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09...

The following letter is a wide-spread internet hoax in terms of what it says, but it's still fun :)
"I cdn'uolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg: the phaonmneel pweor of the hmuan mnid. Aoccdrnig to a rseearch taem at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Scuh a cdonition is arppoiatrely cllaed Typoglycemia.
Amzanig huh? Yaeh and you awlyas thguoht slpeling was ipmorantt."
Lisa


The following letter is a wide-spread internet hoax in terms of what it says, but it's still fun :..."
I knew about this effect but didn't realize it was so all-encompassing. Wow.

The following letter is a wide-spread internet hoax in terms of what it says, but it's still fun :..."
Funny. I have dysgraphia, a real condition that is almost like this "tyopglycemia". It's like dyslexia for writing.
Books mentioned in this topic
The Devil's Workshop (other topics)A Prophecy of Dawn (other topics)
Evah & the Unscrupulous Thwargg (other topics)
Vampire Asylum (other topics)
Women and Goddesses in Myth and Sacred Text (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Vicky Adin (other topics)K.D. McQuain (other topics)
Jeff Goins (other topics)
Jenny Blake (other topics)
Chris Guillebeau (other topics)
More...
"
The day I believe I've got it all spot on is the day I know I'm missing so..."
It's a journey that should never end like Roland's quest for the Dark Tower :)