Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
I think that the way forward for all of us indie and self-published authors is cooperation and assistance to each other. Really, this is a path that each of us walk alone but it will be that much easier if we feel that others are going the same way. I think that bashing each other can achieve one thing and one thing only - alienate us both from each other and from the people whom we are trying to reach - people who matter most: readers. For it is really for them that we write. If we wrote only for our own pleasure, we would never be here on Goodreads and other places, we would just write in our laptops and enjoy reading to ourselves.So my advice would be - make books not war :)
Vanessa wrote: "This is the hater thread."
I think this is the 'blunt but helpful advice'-thread. And it becomes 'blunt' because people don't want to listen, they want to make excuses that nobody cares about. Writing is fun, but being an author is hard work and there are no short-cuts.Nobody benefits from self-publishing 'drafts' then acting insulted when someone points out their book wasn't ready for publication. You damage your own reputation and the reputation of other self-publishing authors who did do the work but are shunned because of the stigma you are perpetuating.
Martyn wrote: "I think this is the 'blunt but helpful advice'-thread. And it becomes 'blunt' because people don't want to listen, they want to make excuses that nobody cares about. Writing is fun, but being an au..."It is a bit like saying that bad films are perpetuating the stigma of cinema by offering sub-par products. Is it really that tragic and dramatic?
Vardan wrote: "It is a bit like saying that bad films are perpetuating the stigma of cinema by offering sub-par products."Not it's not like that. Independent musicians and independent film makers do not carry the same stigma of the self-published author, which is due mostly because anyone who can vomit up words and string them together believes themselves an author, which greatly devalues the profession.
Martyn wrote: "Vardan wrote: "It is a bit like saying that bad films are perpetuating the stigma of cinema by offering sub-par products."Not it's not like that. Independent musicians and independent film makers..."
In the age of easily available digital cameras and production equipment anyone with a mobile phone or a photo camera can consider themselves filmmakers, photographers etc. True, the quality will often or usually leave much to be desired but at the same time there are some gems in the river. The same absolutely applied to self-published authors. In today's age, having a publisher does not equal quality - all of us can bring examples of such a trend, just as having a major studio financing does not equal a good film.
@Vardan,Nobody confuses Sundance with Youtube.
J.D. wrote: "I've spoken to a few authors that are published through one of the traditional publishing houses and they've all told me one way or another that authors are being required to do a LOT of their own marketing. Unless you're a bestseller, you're going to be doing a lot of the things you do as a self published author. The name recognition will mostly come into play once someone has already located your book. I'll admit candidly that the authors I spoke to do not accurately represent all authors, but it seemed interesting that one of the biggest positives of publishing with a traditional press isn't really even in play anymore."
Right, I see this one a lot, and this time I'm calling it. What this sentiment actually says is that a lot of writers have little idea what efforts their publisher is actually making on their behalf. I too know a lot of writers, some of whom make this complaint, but I also have a close relative working in one of the Big Six, and experience from my own much more modest publishing job to fall back on.
Advertising budgets are down, and writers are now routinely tasked with engaging across social media and the like, arranging signings, readings, talks and appearances, and generally being more proactive in their own marketing than was perhaps the case a few years ago. This much is true.
But it's not the whole story. Publishers still have marketing departments, and those marketers are still very active in the trade press, drumming up interest from awards panels, negotiating product placement with bookshops, featured title visibility with online retailers, reviews from the newspapers and magazines that still run decent book review sections, talking to book groups/clubs, and generally making a bit of a noise.
An SPA can't hope to compete with this kind of clout, and we're reduced, basically, to talking online a lot and hoping desperately that we get unbelievably lucky.
@denzelI am on the app and I can't see the link :(
Mahala...excellent post. I totally feel you.
Martyn wrote: "@Vardan,Nobody confuses Sundance with Youtube."
Have you never seen anything worthy on Youtube? Has it not launched a number of careers of talented individuals with no other outlet but that?
Mahala wrote: "Martyn wrote: "I think this is the 'blunt but helpful advice'-thread. And it becomes 'blunt' because people don't want to listen, they want to make excuses that nobody cares about. Writing is fun, ..."good one! If you are doing anything - do it well or do not do it all. This is a simple fact and is equally true both for SPAs and anyone else who is creating anything for public consumption.
Linda wrote: "I wish I had a pithy quote from someone famous to illustrate this, but I only have my own poor inadequate observation:There is no clearer admission that the critics were right than the complete r..."
Have you ever followed that advice?
Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""I was just going to say that. :-)
Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observation or advice, I think that any author is subjectively biased towards their work - no matter the reviews and ratings I have seen for some of the authors posting in this thread and, indeed, in spite of some pretty apocalyptic reviews I have received for my work. The fact that it still hasn't stopped us from writing speaks towards the great resilience of human spirit :))))
Vanessa wrote: "This is the hater thread."You all make me smile.
Mahala wrote: "Vardan wrote: "Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observation or advice, I think that..."
Enormity of self-delusion is a definite possibility :) also known as subjectivity towards your own work :)
Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- The point is that some writers are at least able to understand, whether from sudden light-bulbesque awareness or anger or fear, that their work really wasn't ready for publication. No m..."Don't really argue with that point. I think the same refers to reviewing blurbs, covers etc.
I personally have never defended my works from negative reviews and I, as I said, have had my share. Indeed, I am thankful to every person who has picked up one of my works, read it and expressed their opinion on it. Whatever their shortcomings, they are the best I have been able to do - no regrets, no excuses.
Mary wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "This is the hater thread."You all make me smile."
that is reciprocal :)))))
Vardan wrote: "Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observation or advice, I think that any author is ..."
Exactly! I'm so glad you have all cared enough to comment! With your help I will improve and triumph!
Mary wrote: "Vardan wrote: "Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observation or advice, I think that..."
Based on my experience as the projects coordinator in the oldest and largest humanitarian foundation in Armenia, I can tell you that improvement and triumph can never come from external sources. It is a deeply personal and internal process that either happens or doesn't - the rest are temporary fixes.
Vardan wrote: "Mary wrote: "Vardan wrote: "Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observation or advice,..."
So true... Thanks Vardan!
Mary wrote: "Vardan wrote: "Mary wrote: "Vardan wrote: "Linda wrote: "@Vardan -- Apparently you don't quite understand the difference between "observation" and "advice.""Apparently it is so :) Anyhow, observa..."
Cheers! :)
@ vardan and Maryevery time I read this thread there is a new bitvh
...sorry...stupid phone...a bew
danmint...a new bitch fest and it cracks me up.
Vanessa wrote: "danmint...a new bitch fest and it cracks me up."bitchfest is a type of annual event like woodstock?
Vanessa wrote: "This is the hater thread."Vanessa, I've ignored your posts but this one requires a response. Your post is not witty; instead, it is immature, simplistic, and adds NOTHING to this discussion. It is also yet another tiny reason for this thread's creation and continued life. So thanks for the re-affirmation!
oh dear I am so distraught that you Karma, are annoyed with me. Whatever shall I do?
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "This is the hater thread."Vanessa, I've ignored your posts but this one requires a response. Your post is not witty; instead, it is immature, simplistic, and adds NOTHING to this..."
Agreed. Though, it seems to fit in well with all her other posts here. smh
Martyn wrote: "I think this is the 'blunt but helpful advice'-thread. And it becomes 'blunt' because people don't want to listen, they want to make excuses that nobody cares about. Writing is fun, but being an author is hard work and there are no short-cuts. ..."Egads, Martyn, I... agree w/ you? ;-)
Vanessa wrote: "oh dear I am so distraught that you Karma, are annoyed with me. Whatever shall I do?"Yet another brilliant and insightful response.
While I try to come up with some way to get through my day, with the knowledge you think I am annoying ...I have figured out something you can do...continue to ignore my threads...among other things.
@ Tina, oh look yet another tag along.
Vanessa wrote: "While I try to come up with some way to get through my day, with the knowledge you think I am annoying ...I have figured out something you can do...continue to ignore my threads...among other things."How about maybe trying to contribute to the discussion? Instead of just trying to be a little shit stirrer. You can't pull off condescension. You just sound like a child.
TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "oh dear I am so distraught that you Karma, are annoyed with me. Whatever shall I do?"Yet another brilliant and insightful response."
IKR? Post after post but has nothing meaningful or substantive to add to the discussion. Does she think that people don't realise that she brings her own brand of negativity to this thread? Or does she not realise that herself?
Shame that she also doesn't understand that my post, whilst responding to hers, was intended more for the others following this thread. I daresay that I'm not alone in my thinking.
ETA: And WTF did she get the idea that I'm annoyed? 'Dismissive' is probably the better word here. Interesting how some people assume certain emotions/reactions & what that says about them.
(All Hail) Grimlock wrote: "TinaNicole ☠ Le Book Nikita ☠ wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "oh dear I am so distraught that you Karma, are annoyed with me. Whatever shall I do?"Yet another brilliant and insightful response."
Oh, lo..."
It's best to go back to ignoring her, me thinks.
I have thought about some of the posts on here and I have begun to think that, perhaps ...I haven't actually had a response to the topic of this thread...so here it goes ...me, contributing ...I have many spa novels on my kindle. I have attempted to read most of them. What usually puts my reading to a hault is issues with grammar : I.e. spelling errors, sentence fragments, or simply poor sentence structure. I am by no means a professional writer but if *I* notice an error in grammar then why didn't the author/ editor.
Sometimes I can look past grammar issues if the plot intrigues me...but none of the spa novels have. The ones I have read usually seem like a retelling of other worn out stories.
I know that there are probably great spa novels out there, I just haven't encountered them yet. I hope I will soon! Until then I will stick to the authors I know and love. It is that mentality, however that I feel will keep me from searching for great spa books.
I hope that wasn't offensive, I am just being honest.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Egads, Martyn, I... agree w/ you? ;-) "Don't worry, you'll get over it. ;-)
Vanessa wrote: "I have thought about some of the posts on here and I have begun to think that, perhaps ...I haven't actually had a response to the topic of this thread...so here it goes ...me, contributing ...I..."
If I was at all interested in touting for reads, I'd definitely ask if you were interested in my short stories at this point, you sound like a tough challenge of a reader :)
@Andrew...I would love to check out your stuff! Most of the span's I have gotten have been historical romances and I think that may be the problem. I love history, science fiction, memoirs, anything really as long as its written well and is interesting. Your posts are well composed so I am confident in you as a writer. :)
Martyn wrote: "Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "Egads, Martyn, I... agree w/ you? ;-) "Don't worry, you'll get over it. ;-)"
Nah, it's all good. In fact, healthy, IMO. :)
Unlike some, I don't consider differences in opinion in discussions such as this to be 'negative' and certainly don't take them personally. An exchange of viewpoints is inherent to a discourse/debate, with proffer and counter-proffer of arguments subject to analysis or commentary by others, no? Debating an issue in an intelligent, thoughtful, and reasoned manner challenges and helps everyone.
Unfortunately, the X factor is whether or not all participants to an exchange are mature enough to respect others and stay on topic. Frex, pointing out a weakness or illogic in someone's post is not being 'negative'. Calling out someone for sheer BS is not being a 'hater'. Neither are 'personal attacks' for they challenge the words and/or the basic reasoning, not the person. And IMHO, it's also rather insulting for some to repeatedly attempt to derail a thread by posting irrelevant items, thereby reducing themselves to trolls who at best, disrespect, and at worst, insult the others attempting to engage in serious discussion.
*shrugs/climbs gingerly off soapbox & goes for more java*
etc: some typos
@ karma, I actually agree with your post. Just because some one posts an opinion that opposes another persons posts is no reason for conflict. You said it better, but at any rate I agree.
Mary wrote: "I choose Scenario 2...but how one does that after the book is out, I'm still working on. Fortunately, I've sold my current book to people who were fans through Facebook. Almost no one has bought it online. I'll see what happens but I think I can salvage this. My heart is in the right place and so is my energy. "The beauty of self publishing is you can always edit. In your case you chose, in the past, to do a pay-per-edit system. That's in the past. Simply create a fresh version where you don't choose that option. Then edit to your heart's content.
I published my first medieval novel, Seeking the Truth, back on December 1, 2011. I'm now up to Version 7 of it. I just published that version 7 yesterday to make two little tweaks that a reader kindly found for me. It's important for me that the book be as perfect as possible.
Someone who lands on that book as their very first impression of me has two main possible paths that impact me:
1) They love the book and therefore buy the other 11, plus tell family and friends about me. I now get exponentially more sales.
2) They're annoyed by faults in the book, post a poor review, and now that purchase is actively harming all future sales of all of my books.
I of course want to do everything in my power to create result #1. And if all it involves is weeding out every error I can find, that seems to be a no-brainer :).
Lisa
I'm where Vanessa is. I would love to read more. Most of the fiction I encounter bores me. Because of this, I don't read very much at all. The novels I encounter may have flawless style and grammar, but never rivet my attention. I'm sure if I could find something in which the characters or plot stimulated me past the halfway point or even that far, I'd BE an avid reader. Instead, I find myself yawning and thumbing through the pages to the last chapter, then putting it down, because by that point I don't care.
Richard wrote: "... Also, readers might be better off learning to walk away from books they're not enjoying, for whatever reason, especially in this age of book-glut. I know full well that not every book is for every reader. I'll generally give books to people if they ask -- and if I think they're not just asking because they want to flay me alive for writing crap. I also release my paperbacks at cost, so if someone buys one and doesn't like it, they can be happy that they haven't paid me they've just paid for the paper and the shipping. I think that's pretty fair."I would gently counter that at an emotional level a reader doesn't really care WHO got his money - only that they are now out that money. They are also out their time, and they had an unhappy experience. Their life was impacted in multiple negative ways.
It's an author's responsibility to strive to ensure the readers who invest those things in his book end up satisfied. Yes, not all readers will like all books - and that's where well crafted marketing material comes in. The reader should be content up front that they know what they are getting.
Now, if the author clearly states that the material has horror scenes in it, and the reader buys it anyway, and then gets upset by the horror, there's only so much one can do :).
Lisa
Oh, Mary, its not an spa book but read Marie Antoinette : the journey by Antonia Fraser ....great great great freaking biography...I loved it so much that I have a HUGE tattoo of Marie Antoinette on my back and ribs. It changed me, that book did. You must read it....it will make you an avid reader! :)
Lisa wrote: "Mary wrote: "I choose Scenario 2...but how one does that after the book is out, I'm still working on. Fortunately, I've sold my current book to people who were fans through Facebook. Almost no one ..."And this is what I intend to do. Thanks Lisa.
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I like to think I've learned from that book and applied those lessons to my second, and reviews so far are pretty good. So to me, it comes down to accepting the mistakes you've made, owning up to them, learning from them, and continuing to press on with your new experience.
*And now we return you to your regularly scheduled thread*