Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
S.L. wrote: "They found the blurb and author bio too riddled with errors and thus couldn't be bothered to use the look inside feature."Well, I ignored the bio and the blurb and went straight for the look inside feature. I read the first page, which has multiple errors in spelling, grammar and punctuation.
You mention you used an editor for the content of your book. What kind of editor? Copy-editor, proofreader? Did you check the editor for their credentials?
BarkLessWagMore wrote: "S.L. would you have updated your bio and blurb if the reader hadn't written what they did? The blurb and bio (and cover) are often the first things many a reader will see and they will choose wheth..."Hello,
Without knowing there was a problem, no I would not have. I am not disputing the heads up, just that it's frustrating to put so much time and effort into something only to find out it still isn't good enough.
Hopefully, the second opinion will help and I can chalk this all up to one of those learning experiences to remember for the future.
Martyn wrote: "S.L. wrote: "They found the blurb and author bio too riddled with errors and thus couldn't be bothered to use the look inside feature."Well, I ignored the bio and the blurb and went straight for ..."
Hi,
I used two different editors, both who claimed to have proofreading and copy-editing experience. I also asked for references, and looked up the work they said they had edited.
That is what angers me the most. The knowledge that I thought I was being careful in who I chose, only to discover it was all for naught.
S.L. wrote: "BarkLessWagMore wrote: "S.L. would you have updated your bio and blurb if the reader hadn't written what they did? The blurb and bio (and cover) are often the first things many a reader will see an..."You're going to be fine... the learning experiences do not stop - they just get tougher and tougher (until you reach the last level and are devoured by the final boss). The trick is to keep having fun with what you do and, yes, keep writing :)
Vanessa wrote: "I will bring the pop corn and you bring comedy ...I think we all could use a good laugh, especially at this time of year, its so cheerful it's depressing."
I certainly will. Thanks. I've gained much insight from this board and truly appreciate the comments even if I mouth off a bit. You are all loved.
@S.L.: What your going through must be frustrating but atleast now you have figured out your issue and you will be careful not to make it again. Just keep your head up and keep writing :) .
Vanessa wrote: "@S.L.: What your going through must be frustrating but atleast now you have figured out your issue and you will be careful not to make it again. Just keep your head up and keep writing :) ."I agree. It seems that every time I tried to publish something and then consult writers, all of the critics (conventional or otherwise) jump on the newbies and like Kronos (Yes, I have seen it spelled Cronus) attempt to eat their young. I've concluded it must be some sort of secret ritual. It DOES, at this point, come across as comical. I've seen this take place in every profession or social group.
A long life has taught me to always say something positive... Like "I really liked your story idea, but you really could use some help with your editing. I know a great editor who will look at your next manuscript. Why not give ________ a call/email and mention my name."
If I was successful as a writer, that's what I would certainly do.
Vardan, show me where to find your works and I would be happy to give you a review. :)
Vanessa wrote: "Vardan, show me where to find your works and I would be happy to give you a review. :)"Hey Vanessa, just click on my profile and you will find them :)
Vanessa wrote: "Will do Vardan, will do."Thanks a lot, Vanessa! :)
Mary wrote: "It seems that every time I tried to publish something and then consult writers, all of the critics (conventional or otherwise) jump on the newbies and like Kronos (Yes, I have seen it spelled Cronus) attempt to eat their young."The idea is to consult beta-readers first, then improve your book, and then, after careful deliberation (and perhaps a thorough edit by a professional), publish your book. Not the other way around.
S.L. wrote: "I used two different editors, both who claimed to have proofreading and copy-editing experience. I also asked for references, and looked up the work they said they had edited.That is what angers me the most. The knowledge that I thought I was being careful in who I chose, only to discover it was all for naught."
I sympathize, but the result is a flawed book that has been published prematurely. If you paid these editors for their work, exactly what did they do? Both the proofreading and the copy-editing failed, judged by the first pages of your book.
Good editors are hard to find. Many people without experience flog their services on the new writers, fleece their clients and disappear.
You asked for references. Did you speak to these references? Have you ascertained yourself that the editors have indeed edited the books they referenced?
1. Medium: There are still more people who don't own e-readers than those who do, and ebooks are the self-publisher's bread and butter.2. Market Reach: Marketing for ebooks is still mostly limited to the internet, which, against all intuition and quite a few statistics, actually has a limited reach. There is also a tendency for authors to be impatient and expect a lot of exposure quickly. That's just not a good business model. Smart authors, like smart business owners, will expect to lose money (a.k.a. Not have many readers) for the first few years while they make a name and get established. Many businesses see a turn-around after a three-year period. Good authors need to hang in there.
3a. Product Quality: The vast majority of self-publishing authors are producing their books very cheaply, and can neglect any of a number of important aspects, including cover design, editing, copyediting, formatting, website design, and story pitch. Every self-publishing author has to make a decision as to whether or not they are going to try to swim with the big fish. If the answer is yes, then some investment into quality is necessary. The ego must be relinquished and holes in one's talent field must be plugged by outside talent.
3b. Writing Quality: The intangible. The writing must be good. There is no way of knowing this without practicing, doing your work, and putting it out there. The readers, bless them, will let you know.
Linda wrote: "Angry rant, probably TL;DR for most.Getting back to the original point of this thread *and* repeating a message that seems to be getting lost on a lot of people here:
All the marketing and hypin..."
This + eleventy billion.
Please, FTLOG, cut it with the wankfest and listen to Linda.
In denial about what exactly? Did you not read the parts where I thanked those who brought the problems to my attention so that I may fix them?Who am I taking my frustrations out on? No one on here. I also fail to see where I mentioned I wanted instant stardom. Editors are supposed to edit and help make a work better. I knew going into the project what my weaknesses were, which is why I used editors. Who it seems, have failed me in a very big way.
I am sorry that those of use who do need professional editors aren't perfect authors/editors all wrapped up in one shiny bow-tied package for you the way you claim you are.
I also must have missed the part where traditional publishing isn't as interested in providing editing for their authors. They most certainly do I'm sure.
I am beginning to think your reading comprehension is not quite up to par. No where have I mentioned I am not willing to find yet another editor to help me in the areas I know I have trouble with; nor am I bitching about not having book sales.
I don't know who you are as an author, nor do I care too.
Linda wrote: "Angry rant, probably TL;DR for most.
Getting back to the original point of this thread *and* repeating a message that seems to be getting lost on a lot of people here:
All the marketing and hypin..."
Linda wrote: "Yes, in agreement. Because they actually have to be told what should be sooooooo obvious."What was that quote again? "Common sense is not so common."
Linda wrote: "My "smdh" in response to Martyn (with whom, by the way, I frequently disagree but that's neither here nor there) was because I honestly and truly do not believe that people are actually publishing their work and then expecting their readers to provide editorial feedback."I didn't want to believe that either, but when authors complain that reviewers do not give them enough information to improve their writing, I'm forced to believe that there are authors who use (paying) customers as beta-readers.
Vardan wrote: "...You're going to be fine... the learning experiences do not stop - they just get tougher and tougher (until you reach the last level and are devoured by the final boss). The trick is to keep having fun with what you do and, yes, keep writing :)"QTF (and bold added for emphasis) b/c this is my personal philosophy/work ethic. Contrary to whatever impressions some posters here may think of me, I don't think that I know everything. In fact, my basic premise is the exact opposite, which is probably why I'm able to handle criticism in my own profession. And no offence, but 99.9% of the criticism handed out on GR threads are nothing compared to what I can get on any given day. People don't mince words or care about feelings when it comes to work product and performance in my industry.
Frex, for something really important, I would never rely on anyone's mere claims or a reference from someone unless known & trusted by me. S.L. knew enough to do some checking re: her editors. But did she do enough? Did she confirm their claims by checking the books to see if they were in fact cited as editors? Given that she is not in a position to judge the calibre of their work, did she ask someone who could to do it for her? Obviously not after the fact―which is a lesson which will help S.L. in future.
A careful read thru threads such as this one can provide a checklist of useful dos & don'ts for new authors. Just a matter of whether or not they have the ability to evaluate themselves objectively so to pinpoint their weaknesses and thus avoid costly mistakes.
S.L. wrote: "In denial about what exactly? Did you not read the parts where I thanked those who brought the problems to my attention so that I may fix them?Who am I taking my frustrations out on? No one on ..."
Who edited your books/s, S.L.? You have your cover artist listed in the front of both books but no editor.
I'm sorry to say, Linda's assessment of the book is spot on. It may be helpful for other authors to know who to avoid when looking for their own editors.
Martyn wrote: "S.L. wrote: "I used two different editors, both who claimed to have proofreading and copy-editing experience. I also asked for references, and looked up the work they said they had edited.That is..."
Hi,
Yes, I made sure to contact the references and looked at the books they had claimed to edit and read what I could of the works. Which is why I'm mad at myself. I did what I thought was correct to find reliable editors. Clearly, there is some flaw in how I went about it that caused such poor choices.
Maybe I'm really behind, but would like to comment on self-publishing books. I have 5 that came out in little over a year. I go to every book signing I can get. My family and friends are great supporters. It is hard work to get your work noticed, but well worth it. Thanks
Linda wrote: "Angry rant, probably TL;DR for most.Getting back to the original point of this thread *and* repeating a message that seems to be getting lost on a lot of people here:
All the marketing and hypin..."
Thank you for taking the time to explain. It inspires me.
Linda wrote: "S.L. wrote: "In denial about what exactly? Did you not read the parts where I thanked those who brought the problems to my attention so that I may fix them?Who am I taking my frustrations out on..."
Please DO NOT put words into my mouth that I have not said. No where did I say I was jealous or bitter or whatever else it was you used to describe how I feel towards you.
No where, did I blame my shortcomings on you. You really need to do something about your reading comprehension.
BTW, I went ahead and put away my "ego" and "pride" and looked you up. News flash, the very things you are bitching about my writing, has been mentioned about yours. So hello pot.
Greasy butt faced poo flap. This is aimed at no one in-particular, I just wanted to comment.
I LOVE IT!!!! I'm over here laughing my ass off. This is getting more entertaining than Facebook!
S.L. wrote: "...BTW, I went ahead and put away my "ego" and "pride" and looked you up. News flash, the very things you are bitching about my writing, has been mentioned about yours. So hello pot."Newsflash: You should to check to see what grudge said reviewers have against Linda and then weigh their words.
I don't know most of Linda's reviews but I'm gonna take a leap that the more recent ones are from authors who got schooled by Linda or their F&Fs. And *you* just came off as even more of a petulant child with your post. Nice.
I LOVE IT!!!! I'm over here laughing my ass off. This is getting more entertaining than Facebook! "I prefer Imgur, but we do get a lot of posts from facebook.
S.L. wrote: "Linda wrote: "S.L. wrote: "In denial about what exactly? Did you not read the parts where I thanked those who brought the problems to my attention so that I may fix them?Who am I taking my frust..."
Wow. Just...wow.
I think the problem lies more in your writing abilities than Linda's reading comprehension.
You also didn't answer my question. Did you even have an editor?
TinaNicole ♔ Le Book Nikita ♔ wrote: "...You also didn't answer my question. Did you even have an editor?"She claimed to have had two. I didn't bother to check her books before but your comment stirred my interest. Et voilà! Plenty of mention re: covers but NOTHING noted on the Amazon product pages or in the books for any editor. Funny that, huh? :/
@Denzel: I'll bet you're happy the conversation took a turn away from you. (I say that with a sincere smile, having followed this thread for the past 750 posts.)@S.L.: This may be escalating into something you're not happy with in regards to Linda's comments, but I've always seen her remarks as blunt but honest—she won't coddle you, but you can count on the advice to be solid. I did want to second (or third) what others have said here about knowing whether your editor is adequate, though. My first editing job involved re-editing two books another "editor" ruined. The author had written a book, had a relative read it, and published. She was extremely excited about her book, and it never occurred to her that there were numerous errors. She then wrote a second book and published it. When she started getting bad reviews based not on the stories but the (lack of) editing, she hired someone. That particular someone did such a bang-up job on the books that the author continued to get bad reviews based on the editing. Through a quirky turn of events, I was hired, and couldn't believe what terrible shape these books were in.
By the time the better reviews started coming in (post-edit), the damage had been done, and she lost a lot of potential readers who had either read the first book and wouldn't touch her second one, or who had read the bad reviews and didn't notice her note about having the books re-edited. Releasing updates through Amazon for Kindle purchases does not guarantee people will give your book a second chance.
She took the experience and has spent months working on her craft. She really does want to become more skilled at writing, and based on the early peeks I've seen of her third book, she has improved greatly. The bottom line, though, was that she didn't know the lousy editor was doing such a bad job because she didn't know the basics herself.
The bad editor is still out there, but I'm hoping people have gotten wise to her lack of skill.
I hate when things turn ugly here, because it's such a great resource for good advice and critique. And now I've taken so long to write my post that I've probably missed a whole about-face of events, and my point will be moot. :)
Can someone recommend a GOOD editor? I'm really too old to use trial and error. As a retiree, I also don't have a lot of money to spend.
Mary wrote: "Can someone recommend a GOOD editor? I'm really too old to use trial and error. As a retiree, I also don't have a lot of money to spend."http://garrettbrobinson.com/editing/
I plan on using him to edit my novel, when I write one. He's the editor of the Fat Vampire novella series.
Mary wrote: "Can someone recommend a GOOD editor? I'm really too old to use trial and error. As a retiree, I also don't have a lot of money to spend."You're welcome to check my blog. http://ilovetoreadyourbooks.blogspot.com
I think I'm good, but you'd have to contact my authors to hear it from an objective party. I won't even warn them ahead of time to say nice things only. :)
I don't do content/substantive editing, but I know someone who does. I do copy editing/line editing, so your book should have a solid plot and structure by the time it gets to me. In other words, it should be as "ready to go" as you can possibly get it. I will be obsessive, however, about making sure your grammar, spelling, homophones and punctuation are top-notch.
I won't hold it against you if you don't choose me. I simply couldn't pass up the opportunity to raise my hand when you asked.
I strongly believe reading helps.Read, read, read and then go ahead and read some more, Mary.
Read as many well written, well edited books as you can and pay attention.
Mary and S.L., as someone who has been writing for many years and has had shorter works traditionally published, I'd also like to suggest writing critique groups to help you learn your craft. As Lynda says, having a copy editor will fix your awkward sentences and grammar errors, but your story may still have plot and other large structural issues. There are many online writing critique groups, depending on your genre, or you can probably find one locally in your area. Other writers can often see what you may not. Beta readers (just everyday readers who don't write but enjoy fiction) are also valuable to give you their reactions as readers to your fiction.
All of this should come before publishing.
Linda wrote: "Mary wrote: "Can someone recommend a GOOD editor? I'm really too old to use trial and error. As a retiree, I also don't have a lot of money to spend."Mary:
Learn your craft yourself. You'll nev..." I am retired and I have taken classes in creative writing years ago and was even a Creative Writing Minor in my first college. The focus at that particular school was not on grammar, but it was on energy and originality. I admit I put an imperfect book out, but I guess I was really worried I wouldn't live long enough if I kept revising. I've seriously been revising and researching the same work for over 40 years. SERIOUSLY. It gets better each time, but how many more times must I revise? I doubt any of us can claim perfection when it comes down to it. I felt I just had to put it out there, even if it flopped.
This is the editor I used for my last book, and probably my next one as well. http://www.polished-pen.com/ The website itself is helpful as well, and explains the different types of editing you can find. But to reiterate the other good points.
1. Read. Find and read as many well-edited books as you can. After a certain point, even if you don't quite understand why, you should be able to tell when something looks right and when it looks wrong.
2. Take the time to learn as much as you can, but never allow yourself to think you can get by without an independent editor. After all, if you don't know enough, to know you don't know enough; how will you be able to tell a good editor from a bad one?
Judy wrote: "Mary and S.L., as someone who has been writing for many years and has had shorter works traditionally published, I'd also like to suggest writing critique groups to help you learn your craft. As Ly..."Thanks Judy.
Beta readers like my book.
I have had the earlier versions of the book rejected by standard publishing houses. I actually agreed with them. It wasn't ready in the 1980's or the 1990's. I spoke to someone privately about not being able to read other people's books. I can't get through them. I know the sacred mantra of not being able to write unless I read, I just wish I didn't get BORED TO DEATH every time I try.
Take a break and look what happens. I love to read, when I'm not writing or at work, I can be found with my nose in a book. I prefer the classics first and foremost, with every other genre coming after depending on the mood I'm in.
I am a member of two local writing groups, not one person has ever accused me of not being able to write, or that I don't know the craft.
Have I taken English and Creative Writing classes? Yes.
The beta readers I use, not family or friends, have not once said I don't know what I'm doing, or complained of the dreaded plot holes and such. Have they complained? Yes, about many things, all of which I listened to and implemented before publishing.
As for the editors I used, I have already registered complaints with them.
Finally, the reviews I read about Linda where not on Goodreads. I still stand by my statement she has a reading comprehension problem.
To those of you on here who were helpful, thank you. I appreciate the advice, and plan on using it.
S.L. wrote: "Take a break and look what happens. I love to read, when I'm not writing or at work, I can be found with my nose in a book. I prefer the classics first and foremost, with every other genre comi..."
Your responses only go further to prove Linda's points. You sound like whiny brat who can't take criticism. A bite your nose off to spite your face kind of person.
If you honestly care about your writing, actually getting better that is, you'd do well to put your personal crap aside and listen.
@Mary: do you mean you've *never* liked to read or you're just having a hard time *now* trying to find things that hold your attention?
Eta: S.L. You *still* haven't answered my question. I have to wonder if that's due to your lack of reading comprehension or just not having an answer.
There are a variety of great thoughts here. I know the discussion is a bit contentious, but I think there are also valuable topics being raised.I fully understand the thought that, at a certain point, an author wants to get their story out rather than missing out on at least trying. I am working with an elderly man who has fascinating adventure-mystery stories to share. I adore his insight into character relationships.
He also creates manuscripts RIDDLED with typos and other errors. Most of the issues seem to be due to shaky fingers. He tries to fix them up but he's just not good at it. So, fearing he might not live long enough to get them out otherwise, he simply published them.
It's certainly in his right to do that. But, if he does that, he also has to accept that a large portion of readers are going to be annoyed with him. They paid money for this product. They invested their valuable time into it. If someone got it for free and also was on a desert island with nothing else to do, it would be one thing. However, most of our readers both have to pay for the item and also have many other things they could be doing. So dealing with a headache-inducing issue-filled book isn't just a neutral activity - it's an actively "damaging" activity. It's reduced their money, reduced their available time, and reduced their serenity levels.
I know I might be alone in this, but I feel authors have a responsibility to take their relationship with their readers seriously. The readers are giving up a fair amount in order to read your book. You then should be giving them something that is worthy of their trust.
If your book has typos, get them fixed. Learning the skills to do so is not that complicated. Most of the issues we're seeing in these books are basic issues that one shouldn't need an editor to understand. They're not esoteric issues.
One should have a talented editor to then ALSO read through their book. We all have blind spots. We can miss a typo even on eighty reads. Having another pair of eyes is incredibly important. But it shouldn't be because you yourself are incapable of seeing the errors. It should be because you understand the value of multiple safety checks.
Finally, if you do feel it's fine to make someone give you money, invest their precious time, and drag down their peace of mind because you choose to release fault-filled books, then you need to be at peace with the negative responses that naturally result. If you serve someone burnt food, they're going to complain. If you don't want complaints, then don't burn the food.
If you do NOT want to receive negative energy from your readers, the way to fix it is to not be that spreader-of-negative-energy in the first place. I would hope that we would all strive to be spreaders-of-POSITIVE-energy as our goal.
This message isn't intended as a criticism. It's meant to be an explanation of why I feel authors should wait to release their book until it's worthy of the time and money of its readers.
Lisa
TinaNicole ♔ Le Book Nikita ♔ wrote: "S.L. wrote: "Take a break and look what happens. I love to read, when I'm not writing or at work, I can be found with my nose in a book. I prefer the classics first and foremost, with every oth..."
TinaNicole I read voraciously up until the age of 14. There may be medical issues as well as psychological ones. About that time (Age 14) there were many events. I began to write at that point. The first stunner was LOTR. I couldn't read past the middle of the second volume. Some books I could read, others not. Gone with the Wind was one book I could read. I began reading Non-Fiction after that, usually for research. I had very little trouble with Non-Fiction. From time to time I tried to read again. I read Kola Boof's Sexy Part of the Bible with great joy. I tried to read a friend's series but ran of steam halfway through the third book. The work s good...It's just ME... no I am not senile either. LOL! Now I really going to have to apologize for dragging the post away from it's purpose and making it about ME, but you asked.
:-)
Lisa wrote: "There are a variety of great thoughts here. I know the discussion is a bit contentious, but I think there are also valuable topics being raised.I fully understand the thought that, at a certain p..."
That was helpful and incredibly sensitive. Thank you. I truly wish my editors had worked out. One was a pro copy editor who kept telling me she would "look at it" but never did. The other was my daughter who IS good at editing, but has no time. Even the cheap editors cost too much for me. I would never earn my investment back. The expense was getting to me, so I jumped too soon, Lisa. But! I refuse to slink back from when I came. Book 2 will be better, and edited. It actually has problems I have already identified.
Dear Mary -I will gently bring up the thought that having the first book live is actively harming your future projects every day. It's like you have a shovel-digger set to automatic and each day that goes by it's creating a deeper hole. Yes the second book might then start to put sand in that hole. But the damage caused might be too much to overcome. The hole might be too deep to ever return even to even level.
Scenario 1:
Book 1 sells slowly and damages reputation. Book 2 launches to lackluster sales because of damaged reputation and lack of fans who have read Book 1. Remember, few people will "start" with Book 2. You need that large group of Book 1 fans who are then willing to move on to Book 2.
Scenario 2:
Book 1 is fixed and each day it builds an active fan base. This fan base is enthusiastically waiting for Book 2's release. When Book 2 releases it has all that pent-up demand. Sales spike, causing more people to see it on "top selling" lists, meaning more people now buy both books, causing an even greater rise.
I just can't see how a series will work if the first book is a roadblock. That first book has to be in stellar shape, to draw people in the door. If these were standalone books it might be one thing. But in a series it's absolutely necessary that readers read that first book.
Sell household items on ebay. Ask every family member to give you money for this for Christmas, and that you don't want ANYTHING else. If you focus your energies, there's always a way.
Lisa
Lisa wrote: "Dear Mary -I will gently bring up the thought that having the first book live is actively harming your future projects every day. It's like you have a shovel-digger set to automatic and each day ..."
I choose Scenario 2...but how one does that after the book is out, I'm still working on. Fortunately, I've sold my current book to people who were fans through Facebook. Almost no one has bought it online. I'll see what happens but I think I can salvage this. My heart is in the right place and so is my energy.
Mary
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Perhaps I should move to Seattle.