Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
B.C. wrote: "My self-published books are in many libraries. The process of having them selected by libraries is longer and more time consuming but still available. Like so many things, placement in libraries is up to the SPA. ..."I'm excited to hear another SPA here has his/he books in libraries. I had heard from other authors they couldn't get their books in.
One author I know of (I think he lives in CT)was told his book wouldn't be accepted, as the publishing houses have standards their books must meet.
The dearth of SP works in libraries is one of the main reasons I don't get to read much SPA. There's so much out there I want to read, but(unfortunately) we can't allocate all our funds for books, so I make good use of my library.
Also, I browse used bookstores where I can pick up bestsellers for a few bucks, but have yet to discover the SP books on my TBR list.
B.C. wrote: "I do not agree with censorship. I did not agree with the Amazon redaction. However I can agree that some subject matter may need a warning on the book's page."I did bring up the word censorship, but my issue wasn't whether to censor or not.
My uneducated guess was that the lack of standards could be offsetting for consumers.
An indie author in one of my groups was in a rage about books promoting inappropriate use of children that were shelved on the same pages as her books, claiming it was hurting sales in general for SP authors in her genre.
I hope many of us would be in a rage about these books for other reasons, but that's not my point here. What I'm saying is some authors feel that the lack of standards negatively impacts SPA as a whole.
Loren wrote: "J.T. wrote: But how are they to know their books are not up to the readers' expectation of quality. They will continue to think their product is worth selling even if it is not.*
"
At that poi..."
So your saying, that you won't give low ratings because some one might not buy a book not worth buying? The only way readers can cut through the chaff to find good reading materials is to look at what other readers have thought. I am a SPA. I am also a reader. I look at reviews, not ratings, to help me decide if I want to give a book a chance along with the cover and cover copy,the synopsis and the sample. These are all tools I use to decide to read a book. I distrust any book with only high ratings and glowing reviews. How could everyone that read the book have loved it so much.
Vanessa wrote: "Lord God have mercy, what has this thread turned into?!?!"Where is the "like" button?
I highly regret resurrecting this thread. If I had known it would spawn out peoples inner demons I'd have kept it dead and buried!May the Goodreads Lord have mercy on my soul!
I still can't believe that when I started reading it, the posts were still numbered in the two hundreds...and that was just a few short days ago.
@ JustinI know! I think all this bickering is completely out of line. I think it is sad that some people have to log on to goodreads and use it as a mechanism to vent their anger and frustrations. It makes goodreads, at times, seem like such a hostile environment. Its books and writing people...can't we just all get along? Where is the love, man?
Vanessa wrote: "@ JustinI know! I think all this bickering is completely out of line. I think it is sad that some people have to log on to goodreads and use it as a mechanism to vent their anger and frustrations...."
Did I miss something? What's going on here?
Vanessa wrote: "just scroll and read man"Yay arguments about reviews and reviewers~
It'll pass eventually. The flames of war can't last forever.
Yeah, Vietnam eventually ended; so I guess this too shall pass.
Wow! I hear that Lynda! Yesterday and the day before I was reading this forum and wanted to comment a bit more but I procrastinated and let it get too late. Thus I couldn't focus in the way I needed to to form my response. Now I'm here again reading and skimming the additional three pages this discussion now has. I'll try and make this brief but I want to add to the vote FOR ratings and/or reviews however they come. I have written some reviews in addition to ratings but I've also just left ratings. I think they're all useful. Of the books on my shelf that I've not done either for it's because I read them so long ago I don't want to make something up. I put them on my shelf to show what I've read, to show what I like or at least was interested in enough to pick up.
It never occurred to me that some people in a sense want there to be review standards. I like seeing/reading different styles of reviews, after all, different styles, different people. Honestly, I'm glad we don't HAVE to write book reviews like we're in English class all over again. Not every book is the same so why should the reviews be? At the same time I don't reject books that have all 4 & 5 stars, I do believe it's possible. I'm a big fan of Hugh Howey's Silo series and I think most people who've read it feel the same. They deserve all 4s & 5s in my opinion. And I also won't let all 1s & 2s dissuade me if I think the book sounds interesting, although such overweighted criticism would get me wondering.
Readers don't owe me anything, but I definitely appreciate their feedback and knowing what they think about my work if they're willing to leave a rating and/or a review. With that said I do believe that reviews are even more important for SPAs because we're often not as visible but especially for all the reasons people have been discussing here. If you're doubtful of a self-published book and unsure if you want to invest time or money into it a review could help tip the scales for you more than just a rating. Again, that's not to downplay ratings, they're better than nothing. Actually whether self or traditionally published I like to see what other readers have said about a book even after I've read it. I recently read a book I wasn't too fond of and was interested to see what people who gave it 5 stars thought, just as it's always interesting to see why someone gave the book you love one star! As far as the rating systems go, I agree with many others that I wish you could give half stars.
Reviews and ratings are very important for me as a SP poet because poetry is such a personal and often subjective genre. It's really great to know how your work did or did not affect your readers. Were they moved, inspired, or maybe even pissed off or annoyed? Did you turn a new reader on to poetry or maybe a well-read reader off? Not leaving a rating or review I think can be more hurtful than bad ratings/reviews sometimes, sometimes. But more than anything feedback on a book is a special opportunity for a reader to share their thoughts and feelings with the writer, perhaps a privilege for us all!
I wonder too if maybe people aren't into SP books because the author seems to be a more "normal" person than people published by traditional companies. They have a whole team behind them that could make them seem loftier, a sort of celebrity even. Perhaps...But this brings me to my reply to Ophelia from several pages back who responded to my comment saying in short that sales equal quality. I very much disagree with this, as some others did. Sorry for the reference, but Britney Spears has won awards and made hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars more than she equals in quality as a singer or a performer. J.K. Rowling's latest book has sold more than most of us in this thread but a lot of people were sorely disappointed by it, myself included. One last point, when you meet/know someone who tells you a great story (fact or fiction) what do most people say? You should write a book! Does that not denote quality before the sales? To an extent it does! But maybe Ophelia's comment about self-publishing being comparable to you just printing your book off your home printer parallels the idea that SPAs seem like just "normal" people not "authors" in the traditional sense we've grown up with....blah blah...:-)
Okay one more thing, I read SPAs BUT BUT BUT a bad cover, one that looks cheap and boring and/or like no time was put into it, is a major turn off.
eLPy
Denzel wrote: "Vanessa wrote: "just scroll and read man"Yay arguments about reviews and reviewers~
It'll pass eventually. The flames of war can't last forever."
Exactly! And until then, I'm just gonna ignore this thread.
Personally I just want confirmation of my writing excellence- anything short of that and ill just assume the reviewer is a poopy head with limited abilities in comprehension and a low aptitude for understanding greatness. I've added an app to my amazon page and if you select anything less than 4 stars it returns an error message to please return later when you have an appreciation for fine art and zombies.
Raymond wrote: "... an error message to please return later when you have an appreciation for fine art and zombies. ..."What if you only appreciate art and fine zombies?
Martyn wrote: What if you only appreciate art and fine zombies?"Then you're easy to shop for.
I'll comment that I think a fair chunk of new self-publishing authors simply don't realize their stories have flaws. They are excited about their stories and want to share them. They're not decent spellers and have no idea there are typos or grammatical issues in their works.Perhaps a new author passed their story around to friends and family who are in the same "writing level" as they are. The author gets enthusiastic feedback on their story. As far as the author knows, their story is all ready to go. They've gotten their feedback. They've done their polishing. The story is now perfect. They go live.
The author has no idea that the "quality bar" in the outer world is so different from their own personal environment.
Ophelia wrote: "I'll comment that I think a fair chunk of new self-publishing authors simply don't realize their stories have flaws. They are excited about their stories and want to share them. They're not decent ..."Who is the qualified authority for judging the worth of the work? I think it is the aggregate opinion of the readers. The rise of indie publishing (yours truly is still extremely excited about this opportunity) also gave the parallel rise of indie editing, indie cover artists etc. so who is that certified quality control now?
Generally speaking readers don't know or care whether a book is self-published unless it's obviously produced in an unprofessional manner.
Michael wrote: "Generally speaking readers don't know or care whether a book is self-published unless it's obviously produced in an unprofessional manner."It's all about coverage - the more coverage the piece gets the more people will buy (and magically enjoy) it :)
I've found the best advertising is to write another book.
agree :) doesn't necessarily sell books though :) writing is indeed a pleasure - really helps overcome the slumping sale numbers! :)
(All Hail) Grimlock wrote: "Raymond wrote: "Personally I just want confirmation of my writing excellence- anything short of that and ill just assume the reviewer is a poopy head with limited abilities in comprehension and a l..."Yeah you can't be I'llin' but you can be illin'
Hey, poopyhead is an improvement Grimlock. It is up to a 5th grade insult.
Ophelia wrote: "I'll comment that I think a fair chunk of new self-publishing authors simply don't realize their stories have flaws. They are excited about their stories and want to share them. They're not decent ..."Exactly. To be fair, a lot of SPAs are talented writers who just need an objective critique of their work and a good editor to help them take that step to professional level work. Sometimes what they need is someone to come out and say that's the same story that every new writer in the genre writes as a first novel. It's tough love, and it's not going to come from your friends or even your writer's circle.
This is why it pays to go through the pain of rejection letters to get a publisher. The editorial support and marketing support are invaluable, but above all, what a writer needs is someone other than mom or a best friend to go through the book and be brutally honest.
If your editor tells you it's perfect as it is, worry. The way I see it, if you're not having a knock-down-drag-out with your editor at least once with every book, she's not doing her job. :-)
Vanessa wrote: "Lord God have mercy, what has this thread turned into?!?!"A bit off topic. Hopefully it can get back on target. It has been a tremendous wealth of ideas and information... until recently.
Despite the face that I may have taken this thread in a negative direction when I was in an easily Butthurt mood, I have learned a lot. I have wakened the Grammar Police, too. My takeaway is that SPA's may just HAVE to stand on a street corner hawking a box of books (in the snow)and hope they don't go the way of "The Little Match Girl". Despite one's craft, effort, skill, and time spent, it's still very much who (in the industry) you know, and which one of the writing gods can put in a good word for you. Be Well!Children of Stone: Voices in Crystal
Vardan wrote: "Who is the qualified authority for judging the worth of the work? I think it is the aggregate opinion of the readers. The rise of indie publishing (yours truly is still extremely excited about this opportunity) also gave the parallel rise of indie editing, indie cover artists etc. so who is that certified quality control now?"I didn't mean that there was one authority who certified quality levels. Rather, I meant that the expectations that the book buying market in general has for what constitutes a well written book might be quite different than what that author, their family, and their friends thinks.
Jordan -I agree completely. I know many friends who were shocked that their works were rejected from publishers. Their query letters were ridden with typos and their manuscripts were in awful shape. The authors simply had no idea that there was a higher level of expectation that they had to meet. They are used to internet chat rooms. To them, that is a normal standard.
Often the writers said "Oh they just don't appreciate an out-of-the-box story". But it wasn't even the story. The publishers couldn't get past the wealth of basic errors.
Also, you're spot on with the idea that a good editor will help you stretch further than you thought you could. I'm very fortunate in that my writing group is quite intensive. I get manuscripts back scribbled with red ink on every other paragraph. Without all that feedback, there's no way my stories could hone to what I want them to be.
Mary -I know many authors who succeeded quite well without knowing anybody at all. That's the beauty of self-publishing. You can take your book onto a best seller's list all on your own.
It's like selling crack. You have to do the initial hook with it cheap, super-easy to get, anywhere they want to get it, and you have to make it so "need-filling" that people tell all their friends and family about it. And then once they're hooked you can ramp up the price on subsequent "buys".
Ophelia wrote: "Mary -I know many authors who succeeded quite well without knowing anybody at all. That's the beauty of self-publishing. You can take your book onto a best seller's list all on your own.
It's l..."
I was poorly advised to price higher than I wanted to. I'm still "working it" fairly well (from what I've been told) on person-to-person sales, although my online sales are flatter than the proverbial & cliche flounder. I've received some good advice here, but implementing it will be something of a chore. I wish I'd had that advice some time ago. One thing I'm doing is offering autographed copies at a much lower than online price. Also doing a giveaway in a couple of days through this site.
Children of Stone: Voices in Crystal
Vardan wrote: "The rise of indie publishing (yours truly is still extremely excited about this opportunity) also gave the parallel rise of indie editing, indie cover artists etc. so who is that certified quality control now?""I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, Jean Cocteau said film would never achieve its potential until everyone could participate in the medium. The internet has certainly allowed for that in all forms of media.
On the other hand, the marketplace is hardly equal in opportunity. Stephen King and J.K. Rowling have the Madison Avenue advertising machine behind their work. They could write a soup label, and as long as their names were on it, it would be a bestseller. Rowling had that driven home to her when she tried to publish under a different name and got very low sales.
Indie authors simply do not get the same exposure or support as published authors, and until a mechanism emerges to allow for better exposure, "indie" will continue to mean "vanity press," and it will continue to have the stigma of not "really" being published.
I don't say that to dis indie writers at all. It's a problem with the marketplace and the old assumptions that are still in play.
Ophelia wrote: "Mary -I know many authors who succeeded quite well without knowing anybody at all. That's the beauty of self-publishing. You can take your book onto a best seller's list all on your own.
It's l..."
This is precisely it. It's never letting there be a lull between "I want your book" to them having it in their hands. In fact, my tote I carry daily has two copies of every book I'm in/have written to make sure of that.
Jordan wrote: "Indie authors simply do not get the same exposure or support as published authors, and until a mechanism emerges to allow for better exposure, "indie" will continue to mean "vanity press," and it will continue to have the stigma of not "really" being published."I agree and disagree. Yes, indies do not have an active mechanism for exposure. But we do have a great resource - each other. While not a force to reckon with like Madison Ave, it can be.
This is what I do, too! Great advice to pass around. I've sold books when I've gone to get Chinese, fast food places, meetings, church fairs... etc. <3Children of Stone: Voices in Crystal
B.C. wrote: "In fact, my tote I carry daily has two copies of every book I'm in/have written to make sure of that."I have a weird business card. Instead of my name and the usual stuff, it's in the name of my freelance assassin's company, so it reads:
LOKI ENTERPRISES
Experts in Fortunate Accidents
Corporate Troubleshooting
http://amsterdamassassin.wordpress.com/
http://tao-of-violence.weebly.com/
For consults, mail to [mail address]
I frequently go into book stores and take out random suspense fiction books, stuff my business card inside and put the book back.
Guerrilla marketing... :)
B.C. wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Indie authors simply do not get the same exposure or support as published authors, and until a mechanism emerges to allow for better exposure, "indie" will continue to mean "vanity p..."I think (if there isn't one already that I don't know about) I would like to see a discussion board restricted to "indie only" writers. I'd like to know how various others became successful, what methods are good, what prices are realistic, and what to expect. Everyone wants to write the next "50 Shades" but 99.9% won't have a title take off like that.
Martyn wrote: "B.C. wrote: "In fact, my tote I carry daily has two copies of every book I'm in/have written to make sure of that."I have a weird business card. Instead of my name and the usual stuff, it's in th..."
I do the same thing!
Another tip/trick is this: you know the card readers at gas pumps, etc? Stick your business card in there and let it peek out slightly. When the next person needs to use the card reader, they have to first pull out your card. Most people look at what they pull out before they decide what to do with it.
It isn't the most direct since fuel customers aren't necessarily readers. But it does work. I've received emails from people who said they bought my book after running across my card so "cleverly left in the open". :)
Mary wrote: "B.C. wrote: "Jordan wrote: "Indie authors simply do not get the same exposure or support as published authors, and until a mechanism emerges to allow for better exposure, "indie" will continue to m..."I don't think it's necessary to restrict one to independent authors only. But it would be good to have one that is simply "Marketing Ideas for SPAs" or something. In fact, I'm sure there is something like that somewhere on here if we search long and hard enough.
As far as wanting to write the next 50 Shades... well, I wouldn't mind having a book take off like that one did. However I definitely do not want to write anything like it!
Back to the original question of this thread "Why don't more people read SPAs?" :)I still think a lot of it comes down to marketing. People can't read something from anyone unless they know it exists. Many times (on here and other forums) I see indie authors who lament lack of sales but talk about how they aren't good at marketing. Or they do little marketing, for whatever reasons.
Without the knowledge a book exists, people can't read it.
B.C. wrote: "Back to the original question of this thread "Why don't more people read SPAs?" :)I still think a lot of it comes down to marketing. People can't read something from anyone unless they know it ex..."
Visibility really is a problem. But every time someone stumbles upon a way to get some visibility, a herd of other writers comes in and does the same thing, and that avenue gets shut down because readers don't like being hounded/spammed/inundated. I've found a million ways to reach other writers -- they used to be the ways people reached readers. :-\
Publishers can support your marketing, but unless you have the big machine behind you already, you will have to do some (if not most) of your own. I like the idea of putting cards in other books, although if the bookstores catch you doing it, they will not be pleased. Bookmarks are also a good choice. I regularly leave a stack of bookmarks in places where readers congregate -- coffee shops, book stores, flea markets. Be sure you get the permission of management first. They're usually pretty cooperative.
Jordan wrote: "B.C. wrote: "Back to the original question of this thread "Why don't more people read SPAs?" :)I still think a lot of it comes down to marketing. People can't read something from anyone unless th..."
Exactly.
One is the problem of other people capitalizing and wearing out your "Ah!" marketing idea. There is a distinct problem of our "friend's" lists being filled primarily with other authors, not readers. It can be difficult to connect with our true audiences.
I'm not saying we shouldn't friend other authors. Most definitely we should. By doing so we have build supportive networks. We have to remember to limit our author contacts and up our reader contacts. But more importantly our interaction with the readers must be sincere. Like you said, they don't like being hounded/spammed/inundated. It must be a genuine relationship. Authors have to care.
I agree. Indies do it all themselves. Yes we can rely on our network to an extent. But even those still fall to us. Authors don't randomly traipse around other authors' sites and decide to promote their books/blogs/profiles. We have to ask - ask for the share.
Bookmarks are wonderful! Leaving them at the library, coffee shops, flea markets, etc... perfect way to direct market. Definitely get permission. That goes back to building the proper relationships.
I've gone one step further and asked the librarians what book clubs were meeting each month and what day, coming in early and placing bookmarks on each chair in their meeting room. The following month the club read and discussed my book. :) I provided the club with two free copies, but the remaining seven members bought their copies (assorted ebook and print).
In terms of marketing, I wanted to comment on something Lynda said many pages ago about author interactions and promotion. She was talking about how an author's interactions or lack thereof influences her interest in their work.I think this is where self-publishers and traditional authors differ yet again. The team behind the traditional authors sets them up with appearances, interviews, tours, signings and more, all things that self-publishers can also do albeit with less resources much of the time and solely at their discretion. No doubt both groups of people have to do their own legwork; even in the world of traditional publishing a lot of authors have to still put sweat into self-promotion. What I'm getting after is that so much of getting to know any author involves promotion and so much of promotion involves sharing yourself with readers. Actors and musicians do this as well. When do you most see and hear of Brad Pitt or Beyonce? They make appearances, give interviews mostly when they have a new movie/show or record/show coming out or supporting a charity or organization. Then again, these days we're attached to the internet everywhere we go and wha-la we have social networking. So this magic phenomenon gives us all more of a chance to connect and want to connect!
But this is also a double-edged sword because as a new author you need to promote your book every chance you get. Of course this doesn't mean being tacky and saying hey buy my book "XYZ" for $ in every post and every thread. But given the challenges that SPAs are up against shouldn't we be sure to post in every thread that asks for authors to promote? At the same time that we have to pick our battles (conversations). A lot of us have to limit time spent doing...everything!
Don't get the wrong idea about what I'm saying though please because hearing people say that they want to know more from self-published authors, want to hear their internet voices so to speak, more often is really very useful. And this isn't to say that this comes as a surprise. Rather it's useful to know that some people/readers/writers hold this interaction as a high priority with SPAs even though much of what's available in terms of interacting with traditional authors is limited and maybe even restricted.
Sometimes interacting through these sites and discussions is easier said than done. Of course we all have lives - writing, reading and otherwise - outside of this socializing. This can make it hard to sit down and engage in the way that we might wish. For example, I remember a little while ago I started a discussion around the fact that my grandmother was a poet, so I asked if anyone else had writers in their family. Many people took part in the discussion and I spent quite a few hours replying. Then admittedly I felt guilty I got so caught up instead of writing or reading! This discussion alone has 19 pages of comments and certainly more to come. Luckily it was started a very long time ago so after reading the intitial post one might skip to the more recent comments but even these now are pages upon pages. I like to read some of the history on a thread before I comment which in this case takes more time. Then of course on these sites sometimes things get muddy, dramatic, and that makes plenty of people not want to participate. I was shocked early on in the poetry group reading how simply rude people were and are to each other, and I don't mean critical, I mean what I said: RUDE, disrespectful, unkind, childish.
It is great to be able to connect with people though. I have met several great authors through this site and have enjoyed talking to them. While this thread has gotten a bit out of control it has been successful in that it's useful, I think, for authors and readers alike. It has helped me to know that more readers CRAVE interaction or at least to see an author interacting with others not just promoting themselves. But here's where I circle back around...most other artists do much of their interacting/socializing while promoting. So are SPAs held to a different standard in terms of interacting because we're more "normal" people? Most of us are on multiple sites with multiple projects brewing in our computers or heads or on our tables. We may also have a website. We may connect with people outside of threads or comment sparingly.
I'm not making excuses here but pointing some things out. So, my question is would readers as a whole be more interested in SPAs if they saw the author leaving more comments? Or do you take interest in them because of the things they say in their comments? Is it less okay for SPAs to promote at every chance they can, without being tacky of course? These are just a few things on my mind, but again I have to emphasize that I think this is all useful.
I digress. Thanks for reading/listening. :-)
eLPy
author of "That Which Lives Within"
www.littlefacepublications.com
B.C. wrote: "Another tip/trick is this: you know the card readers at gas pumps, etc? Stick your business card in there and let it peek out slightly. When the next person needs to use the card reader, they have to first pull out your card. Most people look at what they pull out before they decide what to do with it."That's an interesting strategy, I'll keep that in mind.
Mary wrote: "I think (if there isn't one already that I don't know about) I would like to see a discussion board restricted to "indie only" writers. I'd like to know how various others became successful, what methods are good, what prices are realistic, and what to expect. Everyone wants to write the next "50 Shades" but 99.9% won't have a title take off like that."Not indie only, but definitely indie-friendly is the Writers Cafe at Kindleboards.
eLPy wrote: "When do you most see and hear of Brad Pitt or Beyonce? They make appearances, give interviews mostly when they have a new movie/show or record/show coming out or supporting a charity or organization."The thing, whenever one of these celebrities shows up at Oprah/Ellen/Tonight Show, you know there'll be a plug for their new movie/book/charity. Still we watch, because they will entertain us before they plug.
Similar to that is to do blog interviews and don't talk about your book. Talk about something that interests readers. At the end of the interview, there'll be 'you can find [author's] books at these retailers'.
Martyn wrote: "Similar to that is to do blog interviews and don't talk about your book. Talk about something that interests readers. At the end of the interview, there'll be 'you can find [author's] books at these retailers'."Agreed. The problem can be however that a lot of blogger's have automatic interview questionnaires. The questions pertain to only your book, writing, or how you became a writer. I'll admit I'm also guilty of this.
I'll certainly consider making up author-specific interviews now. Perhaps do pre-interviews with them to find out what else they do or are interested in prior to the interview I post for my reader's consumption?
Martyn wrote: "Not indie only, but definitely indie-friendly is the Writers Cafe at Kindleboards."
Thank you. Going there now. :)
I've done a few interviews that were nothing more than "Here's a list of questions, pick 10, answer them, mail back." In contrast, when I conducted an interview, I started with a few questions and we pretty much had an email conversation back and forth. I did my best to let the answers to previous questions and the conversation itself dictate what questions came up next, although I tried to keep it on topics relevant to my blog.
Shaun wrote: "I've done a few interviews that were nothing more than "Here's a list of questions, pick 10, answer them, mail back." These are the majority of what I see all the time. In my interviews I try to ask questions other than writing or writing-related questions. Silly things to get a conversation started. Not everyone choses to answer those however.
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At that poi..."
No don't quit because your input is valauble to some of us! A.G.