Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
III. Goodreads Readers
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Why don't more people read Self-published authors?
(All Hail) Grimlock wrote: "After unintentionally causing someone to pos the Stephen Fry video, I'll be reading him - he's very stylistically similar to authors I've enjoyed in the past...."He is a consummate linguist. I've not been disappointed by a word he's written or said that I've been exposed to. Since you enjoy his speech, while it isn't his writing, you should look up his humorous talk show QI (short for Quite Interesting). You can find it on Youtube. I believe you'll enjoy his quippish nature on there. :)
Martyn wrote: "Actually, it sounded like you wished I had lavished my attention on dissecting your book... *evil laughter*..."Wait, are you offering to lavish attention? Even with a sinister laugh? Could you include a moustache twirl? *eager eyes* lol
Sorry, I had to play. :)
D.L. wrote: "I recently read a review that said 'Since I like Badlands, westerns, and ghost stories, I really enjoyed (insert title here).' Really, that's a reason to give a 4* review? I read the novella and gave it a 2* because of the terrible typos, grammar etc, and wanted to slam the previous reviewers as much as the novella..."At times, I believe reviewers don't leave more than a comparable (to something else) review because they either 1) are leaving a hasty review, or 2) lack the education to distinguish grammatical errors and the such.
Not that I am bashing readers who don't have the same kind of education authors (really, really should) have. I'm simply pointing out that a person would have trouble identifying something they didn't know anything about. It's the same as me trying to point out the flaws in an astrophysicist's equations.
Lisa wrote: "What I do as an author is post on MY public fan timeline (on Twitter, Facebook, Google+ etc) with thanks to the person for the positive review. That way they see the thanks, and it's also kept separate from her private world. If she chooses to interact she can. If she chooses to leave it, that's fine too..."This is a good idea. It remains respectful and appreciative of the reader's time and effort to review (whether positive or negative) but isn't intrusive.
On GR I've sent a PM to thank a reader for their time and input. I hope that follows the same lines - trying not to be intrusive but extending appreciation for the effort.
Loren wrote: "From what I understand, public libraries in the U.S. won't hold self published books for that reason (and there you have another factor that limits circulation)..."My self-published books are in many libraries. The process of having them selected by libraries is longer and more time consuming but still available. Like so many things, placement in libraries is up to the SPA.
Loren wrote: "I was referring to books that condone and promote child molestation, incest,extreme hate, etc, -- all issues, that, at least in North America, are usually found offensive..."The difficulty with such censorship is that there are genres of nonfiction or fiction that focus on such topics. They don't necessarily condone these acts/practices but they are often primary subject matter.
I do not agree with censorship. I did not agree with the Amazon redaction. However I can agree that some subject matter may need a warning on the book's page.
Ultimately, though, it is up to the reader to sample the material for themselves prior to purchasing. A book blurb goes a ways toward giving away the subject matter. The preview options goes further. It's a matter of personal responsibility to look into what a person is buying/downloading.
Mary wrote: "I really thought coming on Goodreads was going to help me as a writer. Over the years I have garnered NOTHING but criticism designed to break my spirit as a writer. What I've found is yet another group of people who have nothing positive to say about anyone's publishing efforts but their own..."Everyone will think their position best. But this thread (and GR in general) is an evolving discussion of books, writing, and publishing. There have been many helpful sources on this one feed alone. There are hundreds, if not thousands, or feeds similar. It is a shame you are gleaning nothing from any of it.
Linda wrote: "Sometimes any criticism at all feels personally directed but isn't really. ..."Well put. The thing to remember is very few people are actually attacking you personally. They may attack you professionally but it is (rarely) personal.
If that was for me, I'm gleaning, but I've never outgrown my desire to rant occasionally (In defiance of my Brit ancestry) I am also B.C. one of those with post grad degrees and very little memory of some grammar and punctuation rules. I just love to tell stories...always have.
Joe wrote: "I think it had something to do with the seasonal mating patterns of the aardvark. ;)"It was the platypus. But you're almost correct so I'll let it slide. ;)
Damn, and platypus was my second choice.Hey, where's Perry?
Joe wrote: "Damn, and platypus was my second choice.Hey, where's Perry?"
Sir, please continue to be awesome.
Denzel wrote: "Next time you rate a story, rate it a sack of puppies out of five, just to see how the author responds...."Not sure how it was intended, but I will take this as humorous. The instant I read it I saw a wiggling, squirming bag of adorable puppies. It made me smile. :)
D.L. wrote: "B.C. the person that left the review was another author so I would hope she knew something about the English language...but... Oh. :( Comment retracted.
B.C. wrote: "Linda wrote: "Sometimes any criticism at all feels personally directed but isn't really. ..."Well put. The thing to remember is very few people are actually attacking you personally. They may attack you professionally but it is (rarely) personal."
B.C., surely you're not implying that criticism of someone's work is an 'attack'?
Linda wrote: "@B.C. -- Regarding education: We've got people on this thread who have advanced college degrees (or so they claim) who don't know enough about grammar to properly punctuate dialogue in fiction. I learned that shit in sixth grade...."
Certainly understandable. I hadn't read through many of the commentor's profiles yet, but yes that would be an issue.
While I have an enjoyment of English, I do not claim to have a degree of any sort.
D.L. wrote: "Personally, I would rather there wasn't a rating system at all. If it must be kept, a rating should only accompany a review. As has been mentioned, and I agree, a rating without a review is useless. ..."*sigh* Says someone w/ 49 ratings but only 14 reviews.
(Need I point out the obvious?)
B.C. wrote: "Hear, hear! It is difficult to get reviews as an SPA. To get constructive reviews offering help...? Those are pure gold."The author who had initially ignored my offer of feedback has since PMed me that he will use my negative review as feedback to correct his mistakes and gladly accepted my offer to give him more feedback if he asks for it.
Karma♥Bites ^.~ wrote: "B.C., surely you're not implying that criticism of someone's work is an 'attack'?..."No, you are correct. Constructive criticism is never that. It is, simply, a service (I think). 'Attack' is not the correct term. I was addressing how I believed others were perceiving it. They had put they felt it was a personally directed statement or statements.
Martyn wrote: "The author who had initially ignored my offer of feedback has since PMed me that he will use my negative review as feedback to correct his mistakes and gladly accepted my offer to give him more feedback if he asks for it..."That's good. At least you know your effort wasn't wasted, and his writing may be improved because of it. :)
D.L. wrote: "*sigh* virtually all of those ratings were given when I was first on GR and listed and rated books from as far back as 35 yrs ago,so I hope you can overlook my naivete of my initial enthusiasm...all the recent books I have read have received ratings with reviews. (So I guess it isn't so obvious)..."I think many of us have done this. I, myself, am trying to go back and (at least) re-read some of my favorite books and write reviews. Admittedly I've written reviews on a few of the books that I did not re-read. I've tried to state firmly that my review is a "remembering" of a story I read XX years ago.
D.L. wrote: "*sigh* virtually all of those ratings were given when I was first on GR and listed and rated books from as far back as 35 yrs ago,so I hope you can overlook my naivete of my initial enthusiasm...all the recent books I have read have received ratings with reviews. (So I guess it isn't so obvious)"And yet, you didn't qualify your initial statement. Nor do you account for the fact that your personal *opinion* as to what is or is not useless *to you* may not be the same for others. Frex, I have several GR friends who've rated hundreds, if not thousands, of books w/o a single review. However, I find their review-less ratings more useful than many ratings w/ lengthy text and/or GIFs.
But the more important point is that your statement (which was in agreement w/ another's prior post) is evidence of one of the more 'contentious' misconceptions (for lack of a better term right now) which bleed into author/reader interaction. At bottom, members' ratings and/or reviews are *for them*. They are *incidentally* for the rest of the community by virtue of the fact that they are publicly posted on GR. To think otherwise implies a false (and unwarranted) sense of entitlement vis-à-vis other GR members.
etc: for clarity
B.C. wrote: "That's good. At least you know your effort wasn't wasted, and his writing may be improved because of it. :)"Well, like I stated before, I wrote the review to inform readers and to serve as a 'warning' to other authors that they wouldn't be able to get by with lazy writing and sloppy research, so in that sense my efforts were worth it.
I think there's a tendency among self-published authors to publish sub-par work and use reviews to improve their book, but that's akin to using (paying) customers as beta-readers.
Martyn wrote: "Well, like I stated before, I wrote the review to inform readers and to serve as a 'warning' to other authors that they wouldn't be able to get by with lazy writing and sloppy research, so in that sense my efforts were worth it..."That is true. All right then, there was bonus to your effort.
I use the GR app on my iPad. I don't know if there's a way to directly reply to a comment in the app instead of just Add Comment, so I'm just adding a comment.Hehehe...I don't necessarily know how awesome I am to begin with...but I shall do my best to maintain that level.
Joe wrote: "I use the GR app on my iPad. I don't know if there's a way to directly reply to a comment in the app instead of just Add Comment, so I'm just adding a comment.Hehehe...I don't necessarily know ho..."
Do you have a beard?
Joe wrote: "Damn, and platypus was my second choice.Hey, where's Perry?"
Busy fighting evil scientist bent on world domination. Naturally. Or, like last week, re-sizing his fedora.
I have mutton chops, like in my profile pic.
Joe wrote: "I have mutton chops, like in my profile pic."Still awesome enough to make your job very interesting.
I don't have a problem reading self-published books as long as the story is good. If I see a lot of typos and other mistakes that take me out of the story, I'll stop reading. Also, if the cover doesn't entice me and the book is from someone I've never heard of, I typically pass it up. I didn't usually look to see who the publisher was though. I've been doing it more lately.
Wow, term paper material in this discussion. My two cents. I am a SPA with seven books and a contribution to an anthology (Wyrd Worlds). I read a lot of books, both SPA and traditional. I find good stuff in both and bad stuff in both. I find grammatical errors in both, though more in SP books. There are authors I regularly follow, but I like to look around for newer authors. My guess, is that my experiences are fairly average.
D.L. wrote: "... If your position is that you agree with the current rating system, that's fine, but GR can't be using some pseudo intellectual argument that the primary purpose of a public rating system is personal and others seeing it is merely incidental. If they really believed that, all accounts would be set as private unless the individual wants to make it public. ..."D.L., when you fail to qualify a statement, it is not another's 'misinterpretation' to take *your* words at face value. Unlike you, I don't make broad assumptions and input my own interpretation into what someone meant/posted―primarily b/c I can't read minds.
Frex, you made the unfortunate mistake of assuming too much from my posts. They weren't reflection of my 'position' or any 'agreement' so much as a restatement of GR's position. See GR's answers to certain FAQs, per Patrick here.
Secondly, your private vs. public profile example fails both in logic and as an analogy. Reasons for such option are wholly different from book ratings. 'Private' doesn't mean the same thing as 'personal'. And by your logic, ratings by a member with a public profile are then *not* personal to that member? Uh huh.
ETA: Also, 'several' is different from 'so many'. Please don't change my words.
D.L. wrote: "...But I don't talk down to or try to intimidate those I discuss issues with. I take what they're saying as their position at the moment they are stating it (there are, of course, exceptions to that rule). That's how I approach these discussions. I think it unfortunate that too often it turns into personal attacks or attempts at humiliation. ..."I applaud the fact that you managed to refrain from using the word 'bullying'. However, it saddens me that you can't seem to distinguish between adults having a robust debate of posts/counterposts and 'personal attacks or attempts at humiliation'. So that's how you take people pointing out different viewpoints or weaknesses to your arguments?
etc: typos
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already but I've skimmed a lot the posts in this last page. I use my ratings for recommendations. Sure I like to help my friends, I like to keep track of what I thought about that book but I also like to find new books.
My reco's here on GRs are based on my star ratings. As are every other users.
I don't need to write jack shit in the review space if I don't feel like it. I don't care if it helps authors or makes them cry like little bitches.
I use the rating system the way *I* want to. As long as I'm following GRs TOS, then that's the way it's going to stay and it's nobody else's business. Especially not authors who think I should be *helping* them in some way or total strangers who can't decide what they want to read.
Eta: D.L. You may not need help remembering, seeing as you only rated about 30-something books, but I have thousands on my shelves. As do many of my friends.
Judging by your last comment I'm thinking you're less concerned with users rating habits in general as you're just butthurt because someone rated *your* books poorly. You can deny or say what you will but your previous comments speak loud and clear.
Get over it.
TinaNicole ♔ Le Book Nikita ♔ wrote: "I use the rating system the way *I* want to. As long as I'm following GRs TOS, then that's the way it's going to stay and it's nobody else's business..."Agreed. While my shelves may be public knowledge, they are there primarily for my consumption. I do try to write a review but I don't succeed every time, nor do I want to.
Certainly I enjoy (as an author) when a reviewer writes a full review that I can a) learn from, or b) find useful. As a reader, I enjoy when someone leaves a review to define their rating. It helps me select books too. Is it necessary? Hell no.
I... don't actually know what's going on but, I did want to comment on the topic of the thread itself, so... here goes.When I was a kid, I spent a lot of time in the library or playing video games (mostly video games, though), and I got used to certain types of stories and disliked other types. My particular game fodder is and has been JRPGs, so I'm accustomed to but do not really like romance plots and subplots. That being said, there were two libraries in my area, and they occasionally collaborated for what pretty much were like indie writer festivals, where writers in the area came and sold books and gave out signatures and things like that. My mother is a librarian, so I ended up going to a lot of those.
They weren't usually ever all that big, so I quickly got a skewed idea of what a self-published writer was. Generally speaking, most author-patrons were older white women who wrote romance novels (This of course being the result of multiple subsets... the subset of authors in my area who A) knew/were invited to the event B) wanted to publicize their books and C) showed up on a regular basis). There were other people there of course, because it would be strange otherwise, but they didn't really fit where I was, reading wise, at the time. I was "too well read" for picture books and children's books, but not "well read" enough for things that were more complicated than, say, Ender's Game. Usually that meant looking into YA novels, and that's where most of these authors would be. My dislike for romance plots then translated into "I dislike self-published works in general, all of them are just this and I dislike this." I had these thoughts despite having concrete proof that it wasn't the case, but I still held that belief. It's irrational.
When I got older (and understood bias) I came to understand that this bias painted a lot of things in a bad way for me, but actually meeting authors of books I enjoyed made me lose the notion that older white women are the only people who self-publish romance novels (I still don't really like romance though) and reading a few good self-published novels (in a genre I actually liked) made me think differently about self-published novels.
But to get back on topic, I think people might not read self published authors for the same reason I didn't originally. In a sense, it's like the problem with the pink isle in toy stores. People who get confused by what they're fighting against-- enforcing gender stereotypes in children by sectioning off girls and boys by color-- may accidentally saddle the blame on something innocuous-- pink being the color that "denotes girl", people might point to pink as the problem when pink is just as easily a victim of the image it is forced to portray. If a bunch of people chanced reading a few self-published books, especially during a time when their tastes weren't well defined yet or they weren't aware of biases they have, then they might end up lumping good and bad authors together in a grey "dislike" mush.
I don't know how much of my rambling made sense, but I don't think self-published authors really "lack exposure," but I did grow up pretty much in a library where most of the librarians were excited to have the community get together and celebrate authors in the surrounding area. (Also, I don't know much about self-publishing so I can't really say my opinion is valid or correct in any way.) But I can understand a negative mindset towards self-published authors. I think it's something people eventually grow out of.
D.L. wrote: "...Ah, but I did make that point clear re attacks by pointing out the person who gave me a 1* because she didn't like my position. ..."No, sorry, wasn't clear at all, especially when that info is in a parenthetical to a sentence about something else. But don't worry. I won't reply to any more of your posts on the off chance that it'll be construed as a personal attack or attempt at humiliation.
Lord God have mercy, what has this thread turned into?!?!
Vanessa wrote: "Lord God have mercy, what has this thread turned into?!?!"A post by post example of why people don't read SPA's?
Seems like a huge argument where some author got their feelings hurt over a bad review.
Vanessa wrote: "Seems like a huge argument where some author got their feelings hurt over a bad review."Nah, that would be the other thread re: someone stating that reviewers write bad reviews because they're less educated than authors.
I still don't see why that has moved to this thread. Oh, well. It's past midnight. I guess I'm too tired to really care.
Yzabel wrote: "I still don't see why that has moved to this thread. Oh, well. It's past midnight. I guess I'm too tired to really care."Some butthurt is so big is cannot be contained in one thread. ;-)
I would like to jump in and put my two cents in even though with inflation it is not worth two cents. As an author, I ddin't set out to be one, just a writer of stories. I have run the gambit of publishing wrong. I threw my books out there before I knew anything about the business so my books got clobbered when I first self published but reading articles like this one, I guess you can call them articles, I have learned several things. Even though the rating system is not perfect, it is a way to tell at a glance what the reviewer thought of the book. I feel that anything over three is a positive review, less than three the author has some work to do on the book. I recieved several one star reveiws for one of my books and looked at what was being said, they were right and I went back making changes, that is the nice thing about self publishing ebooks and paperbacks through POD's, you can change them before the next book is purchased. As I went along, I learned what an editor does for your books and how having a good editor that talks to you frequently can make all the difference in the world. I am right now going through all fifteen published books one at a time to have it properly edited, not just proof read. Mary should take the advice of breaking down the book into a series and reducing the cost by having it in small increments also ebook publish it. Ebook market is where more people are willing to take a gamble on an unknown especially if they don't have to shell out big bucks for the book. Build a following and over time you will see a steady climb in sales. SP authors have to be in there for the long hall. This is not a get rich quick venture. If you have a story to tell and do all the right things, it will get you where you want in time. That is my two cents, thanks for listening. A.G.
I do read them, but generally only when they are recommended to me. While there are some exceptional self-published authors, they are notoriously hard to find - harder than the proverbial needle in a haystack in my opinion. The great thing about self-publishing is anyone can publish a book. At the same time, the worst thing about self-publishing... is that anyone can publish a book.
There is a right and a wrong way to self-publish, and unfortunately the ones doing it right are buried under a sea of crap.
Because they're afraid we suck. And some of us do. But not all of us ;)
Linda wrote: "@A.G. -- Your spelling is atrocious but I think your heart is in the right place. Hang in there! ;-)"I know that! LOL I wish spell check worked on this site because my fingers don't always type what I am thinking or select the wrong spelling! A.G.
Sherri wrote: "Because they're afraid we suck. And some of us do. But not all of us ;)"I discovered I am one of them but I am trying to plug the sinking ship. I hope I right it before it goes down! LOL A.G.
J.T. wrote: But how are they to know their books are not up to the readers' expectation of quality. They will continue to think their product is worth selling even if it is not.*
"
At that point in the game, it's a little late for critique. We're not their beta readers. If I thought I had invaluable constructive criticism, maybe I'd send them a private message.
Low ratings could be devastating to SPA sales, and I want no part in the guilt.
Oh well, the world will just have to manage with one less critic.
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For the author who mentioned it (I think Linda) there is a review on the Createspace preview by someone I didn't know who gave it 4 stars.
I was also told by others that reviews are invalid, as many authors PAY for them. Not saying it's true, just saying what I hear.