Iliad through Book 7

[Silver]

Adelle wrote: "Staying up WAY too late.

You must try to see Helen honestly from where you sit.
I must try to see her honestly from where I sit.

Yes.

(although I suspect we both are trying to see her as we WANT..."

Personally I am of the view that any interpretation of Helen is a valid one as long as it can be supported within the text, and I think both sides of the argument can be done so. Since we can never truly knew how she was originally seen, or what may have "truly" happened, there is nothing for us to do but create our own visions with what little we are given.

[Lily]

Who has written a [modern] book on pulchritude as a source of feminine power that this group would recommend?

[Thomas]

For what it's worth, this is what Helen says in the Odyssey (Book 4). She is recounting the story of Odysseus sneaking into Troy disguised as a beggar:

"Then his long sword slaughtered many Trojans
and he returned, bringing the Achaeans,
lots of information. Other Trojan women
began to cry aloud, but I was glad. 350

My heart by then had changed—it now desired [260]
to go back. I was sorry for that blindness
Aphrodite brought, when she'd led me there,
far from my own land, abandoning my child,
my bridal room, and my own husband, too,
who lacked nothing in good looks or wisdom."

Trans. Ian Johnston

[Lily]

Patrice wrote: "So at least in the Odyssey, Helen admits that she went to Troy willingly...."

Well,..., after being blinded by Aphrodite!? Now, is that the goddess or seduction or love or lust or ....? What interpretation shall we give?

[Silver]

Patrice wrote: "From the Odyssey

"Zeus harangued the immortal powers:

'Ah how shameless--the way these mortals blame the gods,From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes.
but they themselves, with thei..."

I like this. I find it quite interesting, for doesn't it support/suggest a strong belief and acknowledgement of Free Will?

While much of Greek mythology seems to highly suggest the way in which men are doomed by their fate and there that strong belief that one cannot escape ones fate. Yet here is a statement declaring that men can make their own choices in spite of the gods and but use the gods as the excuse or scapegoat for the errors of their ways.

[Juliette]

Silver wrote:
Since we can never truly knew how she was originally seen, or what may have "truly" happened, there is nothing for us to do but create our own visions with what little we are given.
..."

Perhaps that's exactly what Homer's intent was.

[[deleted user]]

Patrice wrote: "LOL! well she does say she's a bitch herself....

I had an argument with my husband today. He still insists that Homer is not against the war. The way you describe the war is the way I read it t..."

I'm with your husband. I don't think that Homer is against the war.

I'm going to have to step back a bit. Apparently I'm thinking with my on values and looking to find validation for them in the characters. Maybe Helen doesn't care what happens to her people....maybe it's just me thinking that she would. Mmm.

[[deleted user]]

I know that Everyman said that chronologically the wall--if it was built--should have been built soon after the Greeks landed. Thucydides wrote that the Greeks would have built the wall immediately after having established a beach head. But it occurs to me (several chapters after the fact) that maybe the Greeks, when they first landed, (at least according to Homer), felt such confidence in their strength that they didn't think they needed a defensive wall. They weren't fighting a defensive war.

Now, after all these years, they have come to rely--both militarily and psychologically (the sense of confidence they derive from having him fighting on their side)... they have come to rely on Achilles.

The timing of that wall-- defensive wall--- MIGHT be explained by the fact that they know Achilles isn't fighting on their side any longer... and Achilles swore that the Trojans would push the Greeks back to their ships. Maybe they thought about that. Maybe they thought that just to be on the safe side....they better build a defensive wall now.