Fantasy Book Club discussion
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Maps
Robin wrote: "Viktoria wrote: "Is this the appropriate time to mention that some people may have fantasy maps on their walls for series' they read frequently? I mean, I'm sure you think that's od..."Yeah, I hated reading WoT with it's huge world map and then it had city maps that were only listed at certain chapters. *annoyed look* Like I wanted to write down a list of pages in various books that I could go back and reference city maps! And then there is the Forgotten Realms world which is literally IMMENSE and impossible for anyone to know intimately even after reading ohhhhh around 60 books that take place all over the map. I have HUGE maps of that one... and of course various prints of fantasy artists' work framed in between maps... a necessity. ;)
Wow, I've been gone along time and lots of posts on this thread about maps since last time I was on ;-)I like the idea of having a guest room with maps - but my apartment is too small to even have a guest room - maybe when I get a "real home"
Jane wrote: "Wow, I've been gone along time and lots of posts on this thread about maps since last time I was on ;-)"I started reading The Crown Conspiracy this morning and my only complaint is that the author signed my copy on the acknowledgment page with a permanent marker that bled through to the map on the other side!
I'll have to see if a map is available online. :)
Some books need accurate maps. For example, The Outstretched Shadow, has no map, and desperately needs one. The hero journeys around so much, and geographical descriptions are so few, I have no idea where I am. (and such descriptions would probably slow the book down) Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone on the other hand, doen't need one.
Jon wrote: I started reading The Crown Conspiracy this morning and my only complaint is that the author signed my copy on the acknowledgment page with a permanent marker that bled through to the map on the other side!"
Maybe Robin needs to buy her hubby a new pen for Valentines Day (hint, hint)
:-)
Maybe Robin needs to buy her hubby a new pen for Valentines Day (hint, hint)
:-)
Jon wrote: "I started reading The Crown Conspiracy this morning and my only complaint is that the author signed my copy on the acknowledgment page with a permanent marker that bled through to the map on the other side! EEP - Sorry to hear about that...Michael was complaining that his favorite "Signing pen" ran out of ink a while back - I had no idea this was happening.
There are maps on line:
Detailed Map
Overview Map
Sorry about that Jon!
Robin wrote: "Jon wrote: "I started reading The Crown Conspiracy this morning and my only complaint is that the author signed my copy on the acknowledgment page with a permanent marker that bled through to the m..."No need to apologize. I'm ecstatic to have a signed copy. And I surmised that a copy of the map would be available somewhere via the Internet.
Thanks very much for the links! I love maps.
And I'm thoroughly enjoying the book.
*checking my copy* Mine's not too bad.. just a little confusing... Thank you for the links to maps, though :) I will print them out and paste them on the wall! :)
As I said earlier, I don't care about maps. They don't do me any good. However, inside the cover of my edition of "The Princess Bride" is the best map I have ever seen. It has the Farm and the Hovel. It even shows the rope and the oak tree to which it's tied.
Sandi wrote: "As I said earlier, I don't care about maps. They don't do me any good. However, inside the cover of my edition of "The Princess Bride" is the best map I have ever seen. It has the Farm and the H..."Which edition would this be?
Thanks! I marked it so I can get it at a later date.
I kind of suspect that most editions would have the same map.
Sandi wrote: "I kind of suspect that most editions would have the same map."In my experience, not all editions of classics have remotely the same maps. Some are just better than others. *shrug*
Besides, its not the logistics I'm concerned with, but the beauty. It's for the strength of artistry more than the map itself. Hell, I can get the map anywhere. ;)
When I pick up a new fantasy book (new for me anyway), the first thing I'll look for is a map at the front. When I don't find one, I flip to the back. I'm always disappointed when I don't find one, though it won't necessarily stop me from reading it (it sometimes puts me off though). I love maps, though if they're not done well they're detrimental. The most infuriating maps I've come across were in Fiona MacIntosh - the map didn't match the story - and Brent Weeks, which was really hard to decipher and pretty much useless. Terry Goodkind's was also pretty redundant, I thought.
After the first couple of books, though, I don't need the map anymore because it's pretty much imprinted on my mind - Wheel of Time springs to mind - but I still like to gaze at them!
I'm surprised too to hear from Patrick that publishers don't always want them. I've always considered them a real selling feature, especially when they're done up in colour.
So....I had no idea that maps were as popular as they are. I think it is great. I have a great source for color printing that is 18 x 24 posters for $2.00 each - I think I'm going to print some 4-color versons of the Map from Michael's Series.
I love maps!Novels that deal with the Arthurian Legend almost always include a map. In fact, I have found that readers feel cheated if a map is not included.
For the record, maps are not easy to create. The map for Sons of Avalon Merlin's Prophecy took over a month to draw. Each coastal line had to be perfect. It was starting to drive me nuts...but I tend to have writer/artist OCD :)
Here is the link to the SOA interactive map.
http://www.sonsofavalon.com/soa_world...
Robin wrote: "So....I had no idea that maps were as popular as they are. I think it is great. I have a great source for color printing that is 18 x 24 posters for $2.00 each - I think I'm going to print some 4..."I sense that you sense a potential marketing opportunity here ;)
I love maps. Whether in real life or my fantasy books, I find them a mandatory asset to the story. But... only if the darn thing helps in finding a city, mountain, lake or even continent that a character mentions. I believe it was Flight of the Nighthawks by Raymond E. Feist that had one of the worst maps I've ever come across. ... I hated that book. It was one of his books that I literally couldn't find a darn thing on the map no matter how many times I referred to it. Another issue I despise is eensy-weeny print. Why the hell do writers go through the trouble of making a map that is utterly useless when reduced down to paper back size? Frustrating, and that's even with my 15:20 vision that I received after my Lazek surgery. ... stupid tiny print on maps.I love maps! The help complete the experience.
Robin wrote: "Jon wrote: "I started reading The Crown Conspiracy this morning and my only complaint is that the author signed my copy on the acknowledgment page with a permanent marker that bled through to the m..."Thanks for the info on the online maps. I haven't started the book yet - but will use the maps when I do. I'm still currently reading the Ships of Merior by Janny Wurts from the Wars of Light and Shadow series. She has detailed maps on both the front and back cover (hardback). As Jeff reminded me there are interactive maps and fantasy art for her books at: http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/web....
This website has been invaluable to fully delving into the series.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php... It hink that page has something to say about the bad rep that fantasy maps have, and the Tough Guide to fantasy land seems like a really good book, but it's true what it says, it seems like you have to visit all the places on the map. The worst map I ever saw was in Stormcaller by Tom Lloyd, couldn't find a single place mentioned on the map and there were no boundarys or area names just cities.
If I have any one peeve with fantasy maps - so many bear no resemblance to the laws of gravity (and most fantasy worlds have gravity) and geological formations, where rivers are likely to run - don't (grin) get me started!One of the (many) delights that I found in my read of The Crown Conspiracy was that the map was actually believable, as drawn. Probably that was the very first thing I noticed, when I cracked the book for the first time.
Robin - actually, thanks for the interactive map are due to my website person, (known there as The Gryphon) who did it, and most of what you found on the site, primarily as a labor of love. (I should also add, to spare you a bother, that if you have found the US hardback of Ships of Merior, that volume included Warhost of Vastmark under the same cover. What became Warhost is Part II, under that binding. The book, or pair of books - which is ARC II, continuing the War of Light and Shadow series - was intended always as one story. But it became split as a paperback, and also in all editions in Britain, to keep the spines from breaking. The US hardback was sturdy enough to handle the length, but - life being messy - it's made for an anomaly in the listed order. Sorry to interrupt the topic, hopefully you won't mind being spared a search for an unnecessary book, should you chose to go forward from Ships.)
Janny: Another thing I liked about
The Crown Conspiracy
wrt maps and geography is that it was fairly localized. A lot of fantasy books seem to feel you need to cross whole continents or it doesn't count.
It drove me nuts that Joe Abercrombie's The First Law novels have no maps. It hampered my reading pleasure. I've heard that his publisher, Pyr, doesn't like maps.
Sandi wrote: "I think I posted on another thread that I don't like maps. They don't help me visualize the world at all. If there's one in a book I'm reading, I'll glance at it once and that's about it. "We seem to be in the minority here, but I'm also not really fussed with maps. I'll glance at them, but I don't refer back to them while reading the book, I don't care if there is or isn't one, and I've never felt my enjoyment in a story hampered because I couldn't visualize whether they were going north or south in relation to a town, or whatever.
I think part of this is because I have a really crap sense of direction anyway, and can't figure out where my house is in relation to work... I just know that I'll get there in the end ;)
I read somewhere that some people were annoyed with Eragon, I think it was, because they couldn't possibly travel to where they were going in the number of days they did it based on the geography... The only time that something like that bothers me is when it takes 2 weeks to get somewhere, and 4 days to get back - without any logical reason, like a delay or reroute or something. If there's no slip like that, then I'm not likely to know the difference.
I wouldn't say that they're a waste, though. Like what has been said, if you don't like them they're easy enough to skip over. Of course, the same goes for prologues and introductions, too :)
blackrose wrote: "I think I posted on another thread that I don't like maps."I think I remember posting on this somewhere else as well. Can't remember where it was though. :)
Personally I ignore the maps in books. They don't bother me but they don't do anything for me either.
I think the major thing the most book maps are missing is scale. What the map shows may be a hemisphere spanning continent, or it may be the size of England. Without some sort of scale, the only thing a map really shows is where a place is in relation to other places. Most authors I've read seem to handle that just fine in the text of a book.
But then, I've never been much of a visual person.
I enjoy maps that are in books. Usually, I spend a lot of time flipping back to look at them as I am reading the book. It helps me keep track of the character's journeys and adventures.
I can NOT read a map...Not even a simple one...I can hardly manage surfing the web...If I book has a map in it, I tend to not get it. I can't have my enjoyment of a book depend on my intelligence because I'm hopeless.
H wrote: "I can NOT read a map...Not even a simple one..."I can relate to that. I'm directionally impaired and map-reading is really, really tough for me.
Adrianna wrote: "I enjoy maps that are in books. Usually, I spend a lot of time flipping back to look at them as I am reading the book. It helps me keep track of the character's journeys and adventures."I'm the same. I really enjoy having a map in the book to reference. I don't visualize directions well so I need someone to lay out the land for me.
I did some maps for Sara Douglass many years ago - the Crucible trilogy and the Troy Game series - and did a lot of mapwork for Australian Realms Magazine in the '90s too. I love a good map, and while I tend to work mostly in black and white, I'm planning on bringing out a seperate book at the end of my current trilogy (ending mid 2010) which will complement the maps and content of the series (The Ossard Trilogy; book 1 is on Amazon.com - The Fall of Ossard). The Ossard Gazeteer will be a volume detailing the setting and its background.
I think good maps help give a feel for a setting, aside from their simple use in following where a story may go. At a glance (a picture's worth a thousand words) you can tell so much about a place by glancing at something that has been competently put together.
H wrote: "If I book has a map in it, I tend to not get it. I can't have my enjoyment of a book depend on my intelligence because I'm hopeless. That is interesting....I certainly can see not looking at a map. But I don't think that a map is given it is "necessary" to the story. In most cases it just is there "if you are interested" - at least in the books I've read that have maps.
Robin wrote: "H wrote: "If I book has a map in it, I tend to not get it. I can't have my enjoyment of a book depend on my intelligence because I'm hopeless. That is interesting....I certainly can see not loo..."
I've (before my map prejudices) read some books where they depend on you following the characters geographical movments and the map is nessisary in doing so.
I do like a map if it is well drawn, is topologically and geographically correct... not the "Oh, I think I'll just put a river here and stick some trees there.." kind of one-dimensional maps I've seen.Not all books need them. I've read quite a number of 'serial' books for which there would have been absolutely no need save for the authors use in keeping track of places where events occur.
Then again, there are some books where having a map is nearly indispensable... which is another way of saying it's a 'crutch' used to cover bad story telling.
I would love to have maps on Series Book because it will help understanding where the character is at such as "The Sword of Truth" series book. I love map. If you think that it don't need maps? Then, you will lost interest where they're at or not making sense.
H wrote: "I've (before my map prejudices) read some books where they depend on you following the characters geographical movments and the map is nessisary in doing so...."Ah well that makes sense. I can't say that I've ever been in that situation except for maybe Lord of the Rings where I did follow along on the map. I can't say that I look at the maps "while reading" but many times after the story is over I'll check out where they have been etc.
On an interesting side note...Michael was doing a signing last weekend for The Crown Conspiracy and Avemparhta and we had a "large map" (18 x 24) mounted on the table and one of the guys did question just that aspect...do you need the map to follow the story. So I guess it is more rampent than I'm aware of.
I think that with the series type books it is great to have a map to refer to. I am one of those detail oriented types and like to refer to a map when some obsure region is mentioned or trying to plot out what or where the next stop on a journey could be. I think that maps are more important in "high fantasy" like Wheel of Time or in lengthy series such as the Riyria Revelations. Different book means different region focus and relearning the geography.
I agree. One problem is that some authors don't think visually, and don't have a clear map in mind. I keep a map in my head, and thank goodness am capable of drawing it. If an author has to work with a third party to get a map made, errors happen. Harper insisted on a pro artist for the Fortress books (mine) and there are a couple of real annoying glitches---I can't remember what, at this point, but they're in there.
Hey fellow Goodreaders,My website is up (it's a bit minimalist), but I have a page for my book's maps.
Fall of Ossard Maps
They're shrunk down, but clear enough to give you the idea. I love a good set of maps.
I am a big fan of maps in fantasy and SF books. I read my first SF novel when I was 12 - Planet of Adventure by the great Jack Vance. I picked it out mostly because of the cover and, at that point, really didn't know a thing about SF and fantasy. When I opened the book and found the map, it really did something for me --- the whole idea of a map of an imaginary place blew my mind. I kept going back to that map to follow the hero's journey. That first SF book, and first map, really sucked me into the genre - and I haven't looked back since.Right now I'm very much enjoying The Curse of the Mistwraith, which also has a great, detailed (albeit very tiny) map. It's been fun to track the characters' progress on the map and slowly getting a more solid picture of Paravia.
C.J. wrote: "I agree. One problem is that some authors don't think visually, and don't have a clear map in mind. I keep a map in my head, and thank goodness am capable of drawing it. If an author has to work wi..."An enthusiastic wave to C. J. - Fortress in the Eye of Time and sequels being a favorite series of mine. I never noticed the glitch in the map - being way too engrossed in the characters and the storyline.
Somewhere in his History of Middle Earth Tolkien's son mentions that his father would spend considerable amounts of time mapping the his characters' journeys practically down to the very hours spent on the road so that he could coordinate the action.The Two Towers is the first SF book I can recall making my father buy for me and one of the neatest things about it was the map. For a time my 12-year-old self wouldn't even consider a book that lacked a map :-)
@C.J.: I was interested to learn that you might have drawn a map or two of the lands your characters travel in because, though I love Morgaine and Vanye (I'd follow her into the Last Gate any day), I really wished there had been maps when I read the series. Is there any edition that carries a map? Are there any hanging around, say, your website or a fans?
And one final note: I don't see it mentioned in this thread but I really recommend J.B. Post's An Atlas of Fantasy, it's chock full of well known and obscure fantastical maps.
I have noticed that if a book doesn't have a map, I don't connect or have a problem to connect (emotionally) with story or characters.
I'm thinking of buying large, print-quality maps to frame and decorate my apartment with.Anyone know of a single site where I could find fantasy maps available for purchase?
I'm a map lover myself and I made sure to do one for my YA fantasy series ( http://www.mother-earthseries.com/ind... ) but instead of putting it in the book, I put it on the website so it could be in color.In response to E, I'd just google "fantasy maps". I'm sure there are places out there with stuff available.
I looked through this thread and it's interesting. I am a "map person" in that I prefer a map when going somewhere to following verbal or written instructions (go down third to the first light, turn left on main. Follow main till you reach Hobson's stable then you'll see a small lane...). In town or on a long trip now I try to get a map printed off the net or whatever.In a novel how much attention I pay to the map usually depends on the book. Sometimes (as noted before) the maps aren't really helpful. Other times the book is such that you don't really need one, but then now and then you came across a book like Sasha. I referred to the map in that novel several times. Twelve Kingdoms and one kingdom with that many provinces and all interacting in "world geopolitics", a map was pretty much necessary.
So, I think a lot of it depends on the book.
Is that what everyone else decided before I got here? LOL
I think my enjoyment of maps comes from using maps in my life and work. If you have a familiarity with maps, navigating with maps, etc., then a fantasy map lends a lot to the story.Especially when the maps are well produced, as mentioned earlier in this thread. If the map is an afterthought it's really not all that useful. But if it is creative, shows the geography and topology, it complements the descriptions of the settings in the text. For me, a map can lend more connection and "reality" to the fantasy.
Furthermore, I get confused when characters are travelling about and I want to follow on a map. If I don't have a map to follow, then I feel lost when reading the story and that distracts me.
I love maps--both real and fantasy. I hate books having maps wherein much of the action takes place at locales not shown on the map.
I too love maps. My 1st encounter was in the Hobbit than LOTR which are most excellent maps. On the 2nd readings, I spent a lot of time comparing the text with the maps to be sure the description was accurate, eg the Fellowship is walking south, is the river really on the left or East? I enjoyed this and do not think I have seem better maps. There was a period in the 70's and 80's when maps seems to be prerequisite in the fantasy genre and I would put books back that did not have maps. More recently, I think we see maps less frequently, esp detailed maps. I certainly do not require a map before reading anymore.
I have also found that some author website include maps when the books didnt. This causes me to wonder if it is the publishers who are 'banning' maps.
Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Song for Arbonne (other topics)Eragon (other topics)
The Fellowship of the Ring (other topics)
The Way of Shadows (other topics)
The Atlas of Middle-Earth (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jack Vance (other topics)Michael J. Sullivan (other topics)
Michael J. Sullivan (other topics)
Brent Weeks (other topics)
Christopher Tolkien (other topics)
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I love that idea!!