Iliad through Book 6

[Erika]

Yes, yes. I think we agree.

Silver wrote: "It also shows the way in which the individuals themselves truly are not enemies with each other, do not independently dislike each other but are caught up in this war, and made to fight each other because of circumstances, politics etc... and that in a different set of circumstances they could have genuinely been friends with each other.

I also like, as has been noted to some extent already, that Homer shows us the opposite: Hector & Priam, Achilles and Agamemnon--allies that have an adversarial relationship.

[Lily]

Erika wrote: "I also like, as has been noted to some extent already, that Homer shows us the opposite: Hector & Priam, ..."

I'm sorry, you lost me a bit. Hector and Priam are son and father. Can you say more about "allies that have an adversarial relationship"?

[Erika]

Oops! I meant Paris and Hector.

[Erika]

When I say allies that have an adversarial relationship, I mean that between the individuals in each pair there exists a level of antagonism despite the fact that they are on the same side. Hector, for instance, in 6.280-6 tells his mother that he wishes Paris would die and also wishes that Paris hadn't been spared by "Olympus" in the earlier battle. Later, he confronts Paris and "in words of shame he rebuked him." (As I have come to understand through the discussion here, shame is pretty powerful stuff in Greek culture.) Also, to begin a story with a furious conflict between two of the most powerful men among the Greek forces shows that allies don't always like or respect one another.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I like that Homer shows us that relationships between enemies, or among allies, are complicated. Enemies could be friends, and allies still have conflict. I know that's not profound, but it's these types of things that make the story so compelling and much more real (for me) than I expected.

[Cleo]

Erika, I had noticed the antagonist relationships of allies as well. And don't forget the gods; Zeus and Hera in particular. They are husband and wife and as such, you would think their relationship would be harmonious (or at least an attempt at harmony) yet so far we've seen nothing but discord and manipulation between them.

[Erika]

Right! The gods are fascinating.

[Aparajita]

The husband wife relationship between Zeus and Hera seems realistic to me :P
Jokes apart, they had a turbulent relationship. She was jealous of his many wild affairs.

[Lily]

Aparajita wrote: "...She was jealous of his many wild affairs."

I've often not had the sense Hera was jealous, so much as she was sometimes furious, sometimes betrayed, sometimes vindictive, sometimes tolerant so long as she had her own spheres of influence and control. I.e., I've tended not to think she expected Zeus to be faithful so much as she demanded her fair stake. And there are undoubtedly specific dalliances where she was indeed jealous.

[Everyman]

Erika wrote: "But, perhaps I am mistaken about how do to categorize Glaukos. Friend, because of the strong host/guest relationship historically established? Or foe, as a member of the Trojan military force? "

I don't think friend, since they didn't know each other up to this point of meeting.

We don't have the same guest-host ethos in our modern society, but Homer suggests that the guest-host relationship endures beyond the initial visit of one person to the other, and even endues to later generations.

I can't think of an even approximately equivalent relationship we have today.

[Everyman]

Erika wrote: "I guess what I'm trying to say is that I like that Homer shows us that relationships between enemies, or among allies, are complicated. "

Excellent point. There is nothing simplistic about the relationships going on. There are all sorts of relationships interweaving and playing off each other, both within the human community and within the divine. It's wonderfully complex set of relationships.

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "I've often not had the sense Hera was jealous, so much as she was sometimes furious, sometimes betrayed, sometimes vindictive, sometimes tolerant so long as she had her own spheres of influence and control. I.e., I've tended not to think she expected Zeus to be faithful so much as she demanded her fair stake. And there are undoubtedly specific dalliances where she was indeed jealous. "

I agree that so far in the Iliad the jealousy element hasn't shown up to much significance. But in the overall mythology, which would have been very familiar to Homer's audience, Hera was indeed extremely jealous of and hostile to Zeus's many, many strayings from the marital bed. Aparajita may well be familiar with and thinking of this aspect of the mythology beyond the events of the Iliad to this point. Which I think is perfectly fair, and not a spoiler, since as I said the Greek readers would have been very familiar with it.

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "I can't find the line but it jumped out at me when i heard it, he pointedly says that the Trojans were fighting in defense of home and family, implying that their fight was just and the Argives were invaders. I think this is why some people believe that Homer was a Trojan."

The Homeric dialect (epic) is mostly Ionic, which might be another reason for supposing Homer was partial to the Trojans. There's a lot of conjecture regarding the development and migration of dialects, but it seems significant that the dialect of Homer was closest to what people spoke in Ionia (Asia Minor) during the classical era.

[Aparajita]

Everyman wrote: "Lily wrote: "I've often not had the sense Hera was jealous, so much as she was sometimes furious, sometimes betrayed, sometimes vindictive, sometimes tolerant so long as she had her own spheres of ..."

Yes, I wasn't thinking of the Illiad alone here- Hera has always been portrayed in the Greek myths as extremely jealous and therefore a massive troublemaker- all from a patriarchal point of view of course;)- she tried to sabotage most of Zeus's mistresses, as well as many of his illegitimate kids- think of her enmity with Heracles. The stories are quite colourful.In any case this whole trojan war started because of the rivalry between three goddesses- isn't that why Hera and Minerva are supporting the greeks? because Paris gave Aphrodite the golden apple? sounds like a good old family drama meets action thriller :P

[Aparajita]

I love Hector, he's such a great husband father and a devoted friend :( as well as a great warrior.I love that bit about the baby getting scared till Hector lifts his helmet...as in the composer of those gory war scenes could think of such an appealing detail :(

Thomas, that's an interesting point about the dialects..will read up more about that..

[Lily]

I probably over-react to the appellation of "jealous" applied to women, including Hera. It is too easy for that word to give negative and simplistic connotation to emotions that are complex -- and emotions that have their origins in a whole range of human or human-like expectations, needs, and relationships, not just the possessive ones of love and of marriage and of hearth. Albeit that Hera is often the personification of those, I pose the possibility that it does her, and by extension, all women, an injustice to reduce her emotional reactions to those encapsulated in the word "jealous".

[Everyman]

Patrice wrote: ""some day let them say of him 'he is by far better than his father'". No hubris there! "

This echoes the myth of Pelus and Thetis: Zeus was going to seduce Thetis, but there was a prophecy that she would bear a child greater than its father. Since Zeus had himself deposed his father, he was afraid that a child who would be greater than he was might in turn depose him, so he forced Thetis to marry the human, Pelus, and she gave birth to Achilles, who is indeed greater than is father.

Is there an echo here with Hector wishing his son to become like Achilles? Or is that too far fetched?

[Laurel]

- A generation of men is like a generation of leaves; the wind scatters some leaves upon the ground, while others the burgeoning wood brings forth - and the season of spring comes on. So of men one generation springs forth and another ceases. 6.145 ff.

[Laurel]

Patrice wrote: "How did you do that???? Thanks, so beautiful. Gosh, what a poet he was."

Simply googled Iliad generation of leaves. I love that simply. Milton has a similar one about the leaves of Vallombrosa.

[[deleted user]]

at 66 Patrice wrote: "."

Thank you, Patrice, I was all happified when that occurred to me. ;)

(back home with computer access!)

[[deleted user]]

It also echos Ecclesiastes 1:4

I think Ecclesiates 900s BC was earlier than Homer.

4  One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5  The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6  The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7  All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

[Bill]

Adelle,

Unless I'm coming back late and am missing something here because I'm not doing a full reading of posts but, Ecclesiastes -- i.e., the book of the Bible you're quoting, is the latest part of the Jewish canonical scriptures and dates probably to the 3rd or 4th century (BC). Maybe 250 BC?

By any accounting, it's much, much later than Homer.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Adelle,

Unless I'm coming back late and am missing something here because I'm not doing a full reading of posts but, Ecclesiastes -- i.e., the book of the Bible you're quoting, is the latest part ..."

Your info may well be more solid than mine. I got mine from Google.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-E...

But...whatever the date...it's beautifully written.

[[deleted user]]

Bill, welcome back to you, too.

[Everyman]

It's not a spoiler, because it doesn't happen during the Iliad, but something the audience would have known. At the sack of Troy, Homer's son, Astyanax, was thrown from the city walls and dashed to pieces. The audience knowing this would, I think, make the scene of Hector talking of his hopes for Astyanax growing up strong and a hero greater than his father would have been an even more poignant moment. In many ways, it's a good thing that the future is closed to us. Imagine if Hector had had to go back into battle knowing this.

[Bill]

Adelle --

I did some research, and I think I understand the discrepancy.

First --

This is Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesia...
and it notes a number of authorities dating it the fourth to second centuries.

Here's another -- http://www.bookrags.com/research/eccl...

The New Encyclopedia of Judaism, New York University Press, which strikes me as serious scholarship, says, of Ecclesiastes, "Scholars date it to the middle of the third century B.C.E." However, this is not on the Internet.

Now -

There is a old tradition that dates this to roughly the time of Solomon, which is where you got your date. This has largely been abandoned except -- so far as I can determine quickly so I may be wrong -- some (all?) Evangelicals and those committed to a literal interpretation of the Bible. So you can find arguments for the more traditional date on their sites if you do a quick search on Goggle.

Beware the Internet bearing gifts.

[[deleted user]]

Bill wrote: "Beware the Internet bearing gifts.
.."

The Internet is, like, Greek??

:) I'm willing to go with the experts. The case for 3rd century seems strong.

Thanks for looking into it. And you make a valid point.

[Bill]

It's interesting to think when your getting to Ecclesiastes it's, like, seriously modern, or at least the day before yesterday. :-)

[[deleted user]]

It is, isn't it? Even in the KJV much of Ecclesiastes has a more modern readability to it than other books. It helps, I think, that there aren't any "begats.". (Ecclesiastes is what my F2F group is discussing next month.)

[Laurel]

Bill wrote: "It's interesting to think when your getting to Ecclesiastes it's, like, seriously modern, or at least the day before yesterday. :-)"

There is nothing new under the sun.

[Bill]

Which is why I spend so much time in the shade. :-)

[Aparajita]

Lily wrote: "Aparajita wrote: "...She was jealous of his many wild affairs."

I've often not had the sense Hera was jealous, so much as she was sometimes furious, sometimes betrayed, sometimes vindictive, somet..."

I didn't mean it in a derogatory sense, I'm sure any modern reader would think Hera perfectly justified in her reactions,whether she felt betrayed or jealous or whatever,since she was saddled with a husband who was quite the player. Hera is portrayed a lot throughout greek mythology in a negative light simply because these were different times and well, codes of acceptable behaviour differed. I was referring to this portrayal of her.
Personally, speaking, while it's natural to feel betrayed, I find jealousy, or rather the continuous acrimony we see arising from it a negative emotion/trait in either gender. But times were different then, people couldn't/didn't walk out. No idea about options for gods...

[Silver]

Aparajita wrote: But times were different then, people couldn't/didn't walk out. No idea about options for gods.."

Aphrodite was known to carry on an affair with Ares (the god of war, in addition to many others, because she found her own husband Hephaestus who was known to be the ugliest of the gods rather unpleasant. It does not seem to me she had the choice to leave him altogether. Also I do not recall all the details of their marriage, but I have a vague impression that marrying him was not Aphrodite's choice. So while in one since a goddess had a bit more leeway than mortal women did, as they had more ability/power to carry out affairs without meeting the same dire consequences, in other ways it seems the gods were bond to some of the same rules and exceptions as men were.

[Bill]

As I recall, Aphrodite was given to Hephaestus in marriage because there was a concern about jealousy of the other gods -- and it was hard to be jealous of Hephaestus. It was a little like the problem with Helen suitor's. There's also the interesting little moment in Genesis when Abraham tells Sarah to pretend they're not married -- because otherwise they'll kill him to take her.

What can i say? Men.