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A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
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CC- A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
Ummm... consumption is amusing?
Sorry, I am entering this conversation a bit late, but I was finishing a book for another discussion and just got to this one. I am enjoying it also. I am finding myself relating to the family unit rather than any single character. If I had to pick a single character that I like, it is Katie. I love her strength, her ability to work hard and keep going, to appreciate the little luxuries in life while still saving for the future. Her desire to break the cycle of poverty does not leave her miserly. Yet, she never surcomes to hopelessness. And Francie can describe her mother, early in the novel, as being cheerful and quick to laugh. I realize that this is autobiographical. So, I am amazed that Francie can speak of her mother in such positive terms when the childhood affection is much more strongly toward her father. We have an adult's understanding of her mother's courage and her father's weakness. I love that Katie can continue to love Johnny even though his alcoholism is making her life so much more difficult than it had to be. If he had worked half as hard as she did, can you imagine the life they could have made?I also like Mary's strength. Thomas is the devil incarnate. He seems to revel in making the life of his wife as terrible as possible. Yet, she remains deeply good and loving, not bitter or hateful. I most dislike Ruth.
I love the way this novel is portraying the world of immigrant Brooklyn. It is not romanticized nor does it turn into some nightmare. Everywhere people love one another has to have its moments of joy and beauty. The little boys torment the lone Jewish kid, yet they love their own sisters and mothers. The various immigrant groups are suspicious of one another while all wanting to grasp the same gold ring. I liked the observation about the different ways that the Jewish and Irish women carried their pregnancies. There are lots of terrific observations in these first two books.
BTW, I have witnessed this level of poverty in Appalacha. And, I have seen it in inner cities, although I have less experience ministering in the urban setting. There might not be a market for dirty rags, but I know little girls who will sell their body for food.
Yes the last line of this section struck me too. I felt that it had to be some sort of foreshadowing, combined with the other comment.
Didn't it say somewhere in Book 1 that none of the Nolan boys lived past 35?I kept thinking of my maternal grandparents when reading this. My grandfather lived in Brooklyn. He was born in 1906. He spoke almost nothing of his childhood, but I know he was poor. My grandmother was born in 1904. Although she grew up in New Jersey in a bit less urban setting, I know that she was forced to drop out of school in the 6th grade to work in a cigar factory. Neither of my grandparents were able to stay in school through high school graduation because they needed to work. My grandfather was a reader, but he was not allowed the free time to read as a child. I got the impression that his father was a stern disciplinarian. My grandmother always thought of herself as stupid because of her limited education.
Marsha wrote: "Ummm... consumption is amusing?"Well, no, not that consumption itself is amusing, just the way the sentence sounded to me when I read it. I didn't do a good job of explaining myself;)
I was very surprised to see the costumes in Flossy's closet. It seemed out of place among the poverty of the neighborhood.
I love this book, mainly because, I could relate to it. I grew up in India[ where I still live ]and I lived in a block of flats, very middle class and simple. Just the thought of a girl in the USA, living so simply, made this book more real to me than more contemporary stuff. Her life and mine had no comparison except that while we always knew where the next meal was coming from, we never had enough for splurges.I had plenty of classmates who were better off, so I could relate to that part.Condensed milk was quite expensive so it was a big treat. We used to spread it on bread, or eat it with dates.
I never even knew about condensed milk until I was an adult. We had normal cows milk when I was young. Then we went through a period when that was too expensive so we drank powdered milk. YUCK! I think it put all of us kids off milk for the rest of our lives. Eventually, we just went to tap water or watered down sweetened powdered drinks.
This is one of my all-time favorite books. I read this book several times (and the sequal (not really a sequal, but, the continuation of the story, in a way...) "Joy in the Morning." I actually joined this group to take part in the discussion! I really related to Francie and her love of reading. I loved that she was so shy, and smart. I appreciated, especially, how she wanted to go to the school in the "good" neighborhood, and her father helped her. I remember he said, something along the lines of, "don't ever give them a reason to send a letter home." And, she didn't. (I'm not sure how far into the book you all are, and don't want to give anything away, so I'll wait to comment again a little later.) I'm going to have to find this book and read it again!
I love how so many of us have personal connections to the story, I think that it one of the things that make the book so well loved. I am finishing up the second section. Look forward to discussing more with you ladies tomorrow :)
Jennifer wrote: "This is one of my all-time favorite books. I read this book several times (and the sequal (not really a sequal, but, the continuation of the story, in a way...) "Joy in the Morning." I actually j..."Welcome to the group, Jennifer!
As a teacher, mother, and human, it depressed me reading about Francie's first school and the teachers there. It's a great reminder of how far we have come as a society, our compassion for children, and their teachers! It also reminded me of all the teachers in the career for the wrong reasons, such as not being married in 1910. It is a shame that after so many centuries of valuing an educated citizenry, we still divide the haves and the have nots by neighborhood and access to decent schooling. Francie's move to the better school in the wealthier, more established neighborhood has reminded me of our city schools in the U.S. now that bussing is effectively outlawed. This book is a wonderful narrative that reaches through the eyes of a child to show us the world we had, and causes us to reflect on the world we are now in.
On another (lighter?) note, I am also curious about both the death of all Nolan boys by 35 and the house situation of Johnny versus the family. Coming up, I suppose!
Her experiences in school struck me. I am also a teacher and it was sad to see this. Also in a time where bullying is taken so seriously, this form of almost organized bullying was depressing to see.
Mod
I did not think that the new school was in a richer neighborhood. I thought that the author said that these families were also poor, but that they were not first generation immigrants so they knew their rights. We still do that. Poor, non-English speaking children often find themselves in overcrowded schools with fewer resources and frustrated teachers. It remains unfair.
Mod
She seems like such a strong little girl. Brave, smart, strong, courageous, and someone who knows what she wants and who knows what is important in life.
Sheila wrote: "I was impressed by Francie finding the school she wanted to attend, and having the courage to tell her father about it. And even though her father is basically a deadbeat, I was impressed with him ..."I must respectfully disagree about Francie's father. I may just have a different definition of 'deadbeat', but mine is in the missing (or essentially gone) father, not the untreated alcoholic with no skills trying to help support a family he doesn't want but loves too much to leave. Later, his absence is felt immensely, in both monetary and emotional aspects. And to read Francie being criticized by her teacher for not writing about the truth when writing about her life, how drunks should be jailed, and poor people just need to work harder...I'm not yet sure how to express my feelings on that teacher in a way that is not inappropriate for this discussion.
Has anyone here read The Glass Castle? Francie's father reminded me of Jennette's father -- Fathers plagued by alcoholism and all the absenteeism that goes with it, but somehow, still a bit charming when they are present and still loving in their own ways.
I felt bad for Francie's father a little bit...I think he was plagued also by not ever feeling good enough so he stayed stagnant, and thus began the journey of alcoholism...like the day he takes all the kiddos fishing and the neighbour girl...he had this perfect day envisioned but ends up being a flop. I wanted him to catch a break and I think he never had any time to heal from grief (the loss of his brother). There was a lot going on beyond his control, maybe he just had a hard time rising above that.
Viola wrote: "Has anyone here read The Glass Castle? Francie's father reminded me of Jennette's father -- Fathers plagued by alcoholism and all the absenteeism that goes with it, but somehow, still ..."Abby wrote: "Sheila wrote: "I was impressed by Francie finding the school she wanted to attend, and having the courage to tell her father about it. And even though her father is basically a deadbeat, I was imp..."
I read The Glass Castle (amazing book) and I agree with your comparison of the two fathers. I think it is often the non-material things a parent "gives" to the child that make such an important impression. For example, when the dad in Castle "gives" his daughter a star. Wow - that was so awesome and full of love that sustained her as much as food to eat. We can "starve" from lack of affection just as much if not more than food. Both girls were very much loved by Dads who, due to their own serious issues, did not provide appropriately for their families but did give love (the greatest gift of all).
Just wanted to add that these are two of my favorite books that I've ever read. If you like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, you must read The Glass Castle. I met the author at a book signing - she is awesome!
Denise wrote: "Just wanted to add that these are two of my favorite books that I've ever read. If you like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, you must read The Glass Castle. I met the author at a book signing - she is awe..."I'm jealous! I wish I met her at a book signing.
Yes, I can see the comparison with Glass Castle. The mothers are so different in the two stories which makes the stories very different. I think it is interesting how Francie feels so much more affection for her father despite his obvious limitations than she does for her mother who is practically killing herself. Katie gives up everything for her marriage and the children. She has to let all of her dreams die. She has to step into the role of a janitor which was so demeaning. And, the way others view her is so important to Katie. But she does all of it because she loves her kids. And, she comes home after working so hard to keep the family afloat only to still have to cook and clean and shop for the family. The father does not have to do any of that. And, Dad gets all the credit. I could not have kept from nose diving into despair or bitterness if I had been Katie.I am also intrigued by Francie's passion to go after what she wants, even when it means risking social aprobation. The other little girls won't ask for the doll for fear that they will be regarded as poor. The other kids in class won't ask for the pumpkin pie. But, Francie can't let these things go, even if it makes her look bad. Is this some of Katie in her? And, is this what allows her to get out of the neighborhood?
Irene wrote: "Yes, I can see the comparison with Glass Castle. The mothers are so different in the two stories which makes the stories very different. I think it is interesting how Francie feels so much more a..."Yes, I agree, Katie had to bite the bullet and be the man of the house while Johnny drifted in and out of an adolescent alcohol-driven dream state, and Francie loved her father more for his romantic vulnerabilities than she loved her mother. Johnny never grew up because he never had to grow up -- Katie and Francie grew up for him.
I think Francie mentions more than once that she and her mother were too much alike to get along, which makes sense to me. I think Katie also loved Johnny for his romantic vulnerabilities, but I believe she had enough honesty in herself to know that it wasn't Johnny who had made her resentful and bitter -- it was her own desire for Johnny's boyish charm that had trapped her.
I lost patience with Johnny, and felt pity for Francie and Katie and Neely each time Johnny yo-yo'ed drunkenly in and out of their lives, always and finally letting his own fears and needs usurp and triumph over those of his wife and children. He even used his guilt to justify his drinking. We know now that abusive spouses nearly always feel agonizing guilt and remorse after each abuse event, but that's just part of the emotional rollercoaster that keeps them unstable and abusive in the first place.
All the unhappiness surrounding alcoholism and an alcoholic husband or father, however, doesn't change the fact that he was loved... they all knew he was "sick," and what's the point of despising a sick person?
I have not read beyond this week's assigned chapters. Johnny is not abusive, except that he is irresponsible. He is the dreamer and maybe, dreams are in short supply in impoverished neighborhoods. Katie is hard working which is far too common in such places. Maybe the joy, the song, the possibilities springing from the impossible is what people love in him. Of course, I am not sure how well alcoholism was understood in 1912.
I'm a little bit behind, but last night I was reading the section where Francie was starting to tell lies and her teacher told her to tell the truth but to write down the lies as the way the world "should" work itself out. I thought that was forward thinking of the teacher, for the times, and also a good way to distinguish, without encouraging, truth and lies.
When Francie gets the doll at the charity Christmas party, she wonders why people couldn't just do something nice for you without reminding you that you are poor. I thought that was a wonderful question. I wish I knew why there remains such a need to remind those in economic need that they are indeed undeserving poor.
Irene wrote: "When Francie gets the doll at the charity Christmas party, she wonders why people couldn't just do something nice for you without reminding you that you are poor. I thought that was a wonderful qu..."Irene, I felt the same way. It was a very good question and quite mature of her to think of it (I thought). In answer to Francie's question, because I pondered it having read that part---people want to feel good about themselves, so someone from a higher class may just want the recognition/pat on the back from having done a good deed. And it made me think...someone's reasons for doing something nice are just as important as their kind action.
Autumn wrote: "...so someone from a higher class may just want the recognition/pat on the back from having done a good deed. And it made me think...someone's reasons for doing something nice are just as important as their kind action. ..."
Yes, generosity is a tricky virtue... it almost always seems to contain secret & invisible strings attached. I find that the only way I can trust my own motivations is if my "givingness" is completely anonymous, and even then, I wonder who I am truly doing it for.
And there are always those people who need to feel needed, or who need "lesser" people to help them maintain their own self-esteem.
Jennifer W wrote: "I'm a little bit behind, but last night I was reading the section where Francie was starting to tell lies and her teacher told her to tell the truth but to write down the lies as the way the world ..."I agree. I liked how the teacher turned her lies into something positive, yet still maintained the necessity to be truthful.
Hi ladies. I hope everyone is enjoying the reading. I have found two sets of discussion questions and since we are close to the end, I think most questions can be discussed and nothing will be spoiled. Feel free to chime in on as many as you'd like. 1. In a particularly revealing chapter of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Francie's teacher dismisses her essays about everyday life among the poor as "sordid," and, indeed, many of the novel's characters seem to harbor a sense of shame about their poverty. But they also display a remarkable self-reliance (Katie, for example, says she would kill herself and her children before accepting charity). How and why have our society's perceptions of poverty changed - for better or worse - during the last one hundred years?
2. Some critics have argued that many of the characters in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn can be dismissed as stereotypes, exhibiting quaint characteristics or representing pat qualities of either nobility or degeneracy. Is this a fair criticism? Which characters are the most convincing? The least?
3. Francie observes more than once that women seem to hate other women ("they stuck together for only one thing: to trample on some other woman"), while men, even if they hate each other, stick together against the world. Is this an accurate appraisal of the way things are in the novel?
4. The women in the Nolan/Rommely clan exhibit most of the strength and, whenever humanly possible, control the family's destiny. In what ways does Francie continue this legacy?
5. What might Francie's obsession with order - from systematically reading the books in the library from A through Z, to trying every flavor ice cream soda - in turn say about her circumstances and her dreams?
6. Although it is written in the third person, there can be little argument that the narrative is largely from Francie's point of view. How would the book differ if it was told from Neeley's perspective?
7. How can modern readers reconcile the frequent anti-Semitism and anti-immigrant sentiments that characters espouse throughout the novel?
8. Could it be argued that the main character of the book is not Francie but, in fact, Brooklyn itself?
And here is the second discussion set. Please also feel free to bring up any other points you'd like to discuss. How is the book's historical time period significant to the story?
Think about Francie's stage of development when America enters the war. The narrator writes that the Rommely women are "made of invisible steel." How do the character developments of Johnny and Katie parallel the relationship between Evy and Willie?
Although people look down on Sissy's promiscuity, Francie adores her, and Katie believes she is good and generous to everyone she meets. What makes Sissy good, and how does her character reflect on the morals of the book in general?
Immigration and ethnic identity are important themes among the people of Williamsburg. How does ethnic and religious identity play itself out in the community?
How do the groups live side-by-side, and how does their background shape their values?
How does Francie's family fit in?
Brooklyn is a dreamlike place to Francie. How does the time and place in which Francie grows up shape the person she is?
Think about all of her favorite stores and celebrations in her neighborhood. How does Joanna's stoning shape the way Francie thinks about sex and the role of women in general?
Find three instances in which the tree is discussed, and read them carefully. Although the tree always represents hope and perseverance, its use at different points in the novel suggests it also has more specific significations. How is the symbol used differently each time? How does it still represent the same idea?
Mod
8. Could it be argued that the main character of the book is not Francie but, in fact, Brooklyn itself?
Hmm, interesting. I had never thought of it this way. For me the book is all about Francie. Does anyone else see the book as being about Brooklyn?
5. What might Francie's obsession with order - from systematically reading the books in the library from A through Z, to trying every flavor ice cream soda - in turn say about her circumstances and her dreams?
I pictured Fancie's obsession with order as her way of just trying to have some control over her life. So much in her life was out of her control, and often seemed to be out of even the parent's control, that it seemed these things she did were her way of having some say in her life.
2. Some critics have argued that many of the characters in A Tree Grows in Brooklyn can be dismissed as stereotypes, exhibiting quaint characteristics or representing pat qualities of either nobility or degeneracy. Is this a fair criticism? Which characters are the most convincing? The least?
I don't see this. While some might consider Francie's father to be the "sterotypical drunk", he really wasn't, as shown by his love for his family, his families love for him, his singing, his dreams, etc. And other characters as well, while they might have their flaws which seem accentuated, all have many other oposing and redeaming qualities. I didn't see any character as being either totally nobile, or totally degenerate.
Mod
For how strong and independent the mother was, it just seemed like when she saw the guy going after her daughter she would have gone straight to attack him, scream, yell, hit, fight, etc. Not think, oh I'll run upstairs and get that gun that my husband hid that I've never picked up and never shot before.
As far as what the tree represents in this story, I would say "when there is a will, there is way" (old english proverb) sums up the analogy between the tree and people. People try to kill the tree but the tree manages to survive. Francie finds a way to grow intellectually, improve the financial situation and survive also, despite all the obstacles.
Sheila, I agree with your analysis of Francie's obsession with order. Also, I think that the more she did the more she felt empowered. As to the question about stereotypes - I say emphatically, no. These characters were not flat, they had very real qualities, good, bad. They were believable. Even though it was a different time period, you could relate to their "humaness." About the anti-immigrant, anti-semitic comments in the book - to me, that was a by-product of those times, their lack of knowledge from lack of experience beyond their own ethnic neighborhood. Far more disturbing to me was the attitude of the teacher to the poor children. As a teacher myself, I found it deplorabe! In the case of Francie, a supportive, encouraging, kind teacher would have been such a blessing to her.
My comments on the setting:When I initially finished reading this book, the one thing that stuck out the most to me was not Francie, but rather the setting. I didn't identify it exactly as "Brooklyn", but yes, obviously, the setting is in Brooklyn. I found the setting to be the most compelling feature of this novel. The time and the place. That is what I ended up loving the most about this novel.
I had a professor that told us that he made a mistake. He said once he had a student that claimed the poem "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening" by Robert Frost was about Santa Clause. He said he thought this was lame and in a nicer way told her how dumb he really thought this idea was. Later on he was reading in Readers Digest an article that said that very poem had been perceived by many scholars to be about Santa Claus. He felt horrible. My point? Teachers can teach students how to read, write, and all the things they need for the world. They should even teach students to think respectfully and for themselves....but they shouldn't squash a student thinking for themselves or the content of their minds just because they do not share their personal opinions. Francie could write in a variety of forms and the teacher should not have put her in a box. IMO the teacher was a first rate snob that could have learned a thing or two from Francie and I was really discouraged that Francie took such a deplorable opinion from an ignorant woman to heart. (that being the second teacher in her life though that teacher was much kinder than the first).The first teacher needed to be fired. She was horrible. The whole school should have been closed. I have hard time wrapping my mind around the type of cruelty she portrayed and the cruelty the school portrayed altogether. The bully kids were trying to find control in their lives by bullying others, achieve self esteem because the adults in the school had taken that away from them. The professionals minus band and art teachers were first rate child abusers that caused the bullying in the first place. Made me sad and angry. I loved when Aunt Sissy went in there and lectured her. What a doll. I wish more action had been taken against those adults though.
Aunt Sissy was kind- I think to Francie that is all that matters ( to me too!). I think Francie learned this by the stoning of that poor girl and by Aunt Sissy sticking up for her. I think Francie realized she'd rather be someone like Aunt Sissy than a person playing a part on the outside. For instance, the girl with the baby was happy and kind to the baby, doing harm to no one. One of the women that stoned the girl was pregnant previous to marriage, but just got married before everyone knew of it. Francie ponders why that particular woman acted with the other women instead of sticking up for the young girl. At that moment, I think Francie realized she would take authenticity (Aunt Sissy) over artificialness (the stoning women). I think she realized that sometimes doing what right makes you stand alone.
If I am too far ahead, sorry, please delete my comment.
Sheila wrote: "Does anyone have any thoughts on the mother's reaction when Francie was being attacked by the pervert in the hallway? I was wondering why the mom would take the time to run back upstairs into her ..."I thought the same thing. I am guessing all she could think of was ending it altogether (via gun). I think it was just a reaction that maybe if she had a do over she might have done it differently, though possibly not. She was thinking on the spot?
Great questions. This is when a face to face conversation would be so much easier than posting.Couldn’t find anything in this novel to warrant Francie’s negative assessment of women networking. Certainly there were girl bullies, but there were boy bullies also. Joanne is condemned by the neighborhood women, but Johnny is kicked out of the union he loved. The Romely women were very supportive of each other.
I loved the Romely women. They allowed each to be unique. Sissy violates all of the religious guidelines that defines Mary’s life, makes Katie vulnerable to negative social stigma which she most detests and is Evy’s opposite in every way. Yet, she is allowed to be Sissy, loved even if not always approved.
I thought that poverty was handled very insightfully in this novel, from Katie’s distaste of charity to the teacher’s disapproval of it as an appropriate topic for an essay to Francie’s comment when she gets the Christmas doll. I kept thinking that this could only be written 30 years and two world wars and a depression after the actual events described. I think that we were a nation nourished by the Horatio Alger stories. We believed we wanted to believe; we needed to believe that prosperity was a matter of character open to all with the work ethic and moral backbone to achieve it. Only such a belief could have allowed hordes of impoverished immigrants to flood our shores welcomed by a statue as majestic as Lady Liberty. These new comers had to keep their eyes on this dream or risk despair. The nation had to be convinced that these were potential Rockefellers or slide into xenophobia. I don’t think it was an insensitive teacher that did not want a little girl to focus on sordid things, I think it was a nation that wanted each boat load of ragged, sick illiterate peasants to believe that there was a pavement of gold just under the cracked cement and to be willing to work tirelessly to obtain that prosperity for their children. Unfortunately, a depression that devastated millionaires and share croppers, descendants of the Mayflower and Ellis Island equally made us think differently. Fighting a pointless war in WW1 and the heart numbing horror of the cruelty of the Holocaust, the unfathomable destructive power of the atomic bomb and a complete shift in international power forced us to ask very different questions that had to be explored in fiction.
As for Brooklyn as the real focus of the book, I agree. In some ways this is a coming of age story. Francie’s transition from childhood to the brink of adulthood is a metaphor for a nation. America was growing up. Francie says good bye to the shadow of herself on the neighboring fire escape but America also says good bye to a way of being that is forever gone. In the Nolan family, the particular becomes the universal; as the Nolan Family is a snap shot of Brooklyn life, so Williamsburg is the particular neighborhood that stands in for America as it understood itself in 1912.
Francie’s desire to read every library book and taste every soda flavor spoke of a conviction that a person could have it all. One little girl could indeed read every book, taste every flavor, do anything and everything, experience all that life held. I think Katie echoes this when she repeatedly tells Francie that she will find a way to get what she wants. Katie is worried about Neeley because he lacks the ambition, but not Katie. I know that Katie chides herself for not loving Neeley as much as Francie, but I think she loved them differently. In Francie she saw herself and all those she knew who worked their way out of poverty. As long as you nurtured the dream, you would achieve it. Opportunity was there in one form or another. But, Neeley did not want an education, hard work, or financial security. He just wanted to enjoy his life and that would ensure failure in this life view.
There were things that I absolutely loved about Katie. I loved her wisdom that a person had to experience extravagance periodically in order to continue to hope. The wasted condensed milk, the excessive tip at graduation, the piano lessons, etc were incredible signs of a deep wisdom. If all one does is scrimp, it becomes self-defining and one never sees a way out. The moments of extravagance told the children who they had a right to be. I also loved her refusal to allow Francie to finish washing the floor for her. She could hardly get on the floor due to her advance pregnancy. She is tired and uncomfortable and Francie is young and could finish the job easily. But, Katie won’t let Francie risk harming her hands in the chemicals. Katie will give up everything for her daughter’s future. And, when the labor comes, she refuses to let Francie see the pain. She spares Francie what she can spare her, even at a near superhuman level.
The most touching moment for me was the roses sent by Johnny at her graduation. Johnny knew he was killing himself, but he could not stop the drink. He knew that he was making life harder for his wife and children, but could not stop. In some ways, I saw Johnny as selfish, particularly compared to Katie. But, moments like the roses, the forethought to give Sissy the money realizing that he might kill himself before the big day, demonstrated the complexity of love and life choices and addictions. I wish Johnny could have stopped the drink, could have been there instead of his roses, but he gave Francie what he could give her.
Along with Johnny’s roses, the last minute camaraderie with the girls became a poignant moment from me. Francie had self-defined as a loner. So, she was unaware of potential friends in the class until she was ready to leave and had nothing to risk. I wondered how many other times Francie’s descriptions of loneliness were self made. She unconsciously isolates from the girls in the flower factory until a distraction allows her to let her guard down. She never befriends the other girls at the teletype office. So, back to my initial comments, was there really anything in her life to give her the conviction that women were inherently untrustworthy, or was she the director of her own play that forced women into the wings of her life?
. What might Francie's obsession with order - from systematically reading the books in the library from A through Z, to trying every flavor ice cream soda - in turn say about her circumstances and her dreams?I love this question. I think that she is a little OCD because she does not want to miss out on anything in life. If she doesn't try every flavor how will she know if there is one she really enjoys. I feel this way about books too...I want to read it all and I have been working on my dissertation for several weeks now and I missing out on my books :(
Thank y Vicki, this discussion has been great. I have loved the book and plan to wrap it up this week. I started out enjoying Francie a few chapters before Johnny's death found myself admiring Katie for her direction and thoughts as well. I plan to watch the movie too. Is there anyone who would be interested in a buddy read for the Glass Castle.
I've already read it a while ago so I would not be the best candidate for a buddy read but would love to join in on your discussion if you find someone else. That was one of my favorite books. BTW, the author Jeanette Walls said in an interview that A Tree Grows in Brooklyn was one of her favorite books. They are two of my all time favorites - both are amazing stories of women who survive and thrive even under such difficult circumstances of poverty. I am blown away by the resiliance of people and often wonder what makes the difference between those who overcome hardships and those who succumb.
The part where Francie got roses from her father on the night of her graduation brought tears to my eyes. I have read this book at least 3 times over the years and I believe this reading was the first time I cried a bit. maybe it is because I am a mom and realize the importance of family. Whatever Francie did not have in her life...she did have a family that cared about her. Especially Aunt Sissy. Love the strong female characters.Irene wrote: "Great questions. This is when a face to face conversation would be so much easier than posting.
Couldn’t find anything in this novel to warrant Francie’s negative assessment of women networking..."
Irene wrote: "I know that Katie chides herself for not loving Neeley as much as Francie, but I think she loved them differently...."Hmmm... I remember it as just the opposite -- Katie feels guilty about not loving Francie as much as she loved Neely. I think the author alluded to the fact that maybe Katie & Francie were too much alike as one of the reasons.
I wondered how many other times Francie’s descriptions of loneliness were self made. She unconsciously isolates from the girls in the flower factory until a distraction allows her to let her guard down. She never befriends the other girls at the teletype office. So, back to my initial comments, was there really anything in her life to give her the conviction that women were inherently untrustworthy, or was she the director of her own play that forced women into the wings of her life?
I wondered about this too. At some point Francie even makes the shocking remark that she will never trust or befriend a woman (I think it's at the end of a chapter, but I can't find it).
If this was/is typical of certain kinds of cultures or upbringing, it made it easier to understand why we women seem to be our own worst enemies. And, it might simply source from Francie's unarticulated understanding that her mother was not a person she could lean on for female love and companionship.
Janice do you think that is why we don't get much of who Neely is. He seems to be overshadowed by Francie?
Woops, Janice, I meant to say that Katie chides herself for not loving Francie as much as Neeley. Sorry that I did not catch my flipped statement when I tried to proof read. I guess I see what I want to see sometimes.
Newley and Johnny don't appear to be main characters in this book at all. Women are, however, the key figures.
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If I Were King (other topics)If I Were King (other topics)
If I Were King (other topics)
The Glass Castle (other topics)
The Glass Castle (other topics)
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I just wanted to add that I really loved the portrayal of their poverty. And not just their poverty, but the general low-income state of the US at that time. It's something that I certainly never experienced and something that I think most children in the US today do not experience. Even impoverished children in the US today have so much more than the poor during Francie's time. It's unimaginable to me that children would go around collecting scrap metal and scrap rags for money. That's totally unimaginable. Who would buy scrap rags today? And, coffee was a luxury. Who would think coffee is a luxury today?
I love it because I didn't experience it in my life, and it's humbling to at least vicariously experience it through the words of this author.