Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
discussion
Is James a Bad Guy?
James was terrible to snape. He made his highschool life a living hell from what i saw. But snape was just as horrible a person so i guess he deserved what he got. And james has proved himself on many occasions capable of good. He did save snapes life from lupin when he turned into a werewolf when they were 16. I dont think james was a bad guy he was just a stupid teenager.
I don't think James was a bad guy, but I do think he had many faults. I also don't see Snape and James on the same level, as far as the bullying goes between them (I'm not discussing Snape's later behavior to his students, which was terrible). James grew up in a loving home and was probably pretty spoiled. He was not compelled to bully, he chose to bully. For me, that's a huge distinction. We saw him instigate for no reason other than for entertainment and start insulting Snape when James had all his friends around him and Snape was alone. It continued when Snape was disarmed. James's motivations were not defensive, but offensive. I think James's actions helped push Snape into the Deatheaters. If James hadn't made the decision to bully Snape, Snape might've found Hogwarts to be the haven that Harry found it to be. With Lily's influence, Snape might've avoided making such a huge mistake.
James was a horrible bully. He made a mistake, and probably later regretted it. He was not a very nice person early in life, and Snape became a Death Eater when he left Hogwarts, so both made some big mistakes.
I must say, I never really liked James.. I don't mind that he died (but Lily was sad, because I think she was a really nice person.)@ Jordan, nobody ever deserves to be bullied, I don't think that Snape was like that all the time.. Jup, he was kinda different, but I think that's because of the way he grew up. James chose to bully him and that's something I absolute dislike about him.
& Ciara, perhaps - if the story was differend and Snape would end up with Lily - he wouldn't made the choice to become a Death Eather. Yes, he made a big mistake, but it can be because of his past. I think that James might have been a big influence in this..
Mickey wrote: "I don't think James was a bad guy, but I do think he had many faults. I also don't see Snape and James on the same level, as far as the bullying goes between them (I'm not discussing Snape's la..."
I completely agree with you.
Maybe James wasn't a bad guy, but he was just downright terrible to Snape.
Nah james was just your regular jock picking on the school nerd. Luckily he grew out of it (unlike Sirius)
When you grow up, you start to understand that no one is totally good or bad. Human beings will always have good and bad points, in the end it depends in oneself on how to develop and guide all of them and for which purpose. If James was bullying it was because he was inmature, but also remember that he saved Snape once, so that would mean that even if he was a bully, he could really differentiate deeply between right and wrong. (or at least mark the point when he started to mature)
Heaven wrote: "When I watched Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2, my mom (who's never read the books) asked me two questions:1) So.. Is Snape Harry's dad?
To which I replied: Ew.
2) So, Harry's d..."
You are right.
In my opinion James Potter was not a bully. Snape and James were as bad as each other, it's not like Snape couldn't defend himself and was weaker than James. Snape was involved in the Dark Arts and invented so many Dark spells, do you think he never used them?
Hina wrote: "Heaven wrote: "When I watched Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2, my mom (who's never read the books) asked me two questions:1) So.. Is Snape Harry's dad?
To which I replied: Ew.
2) So,..."
You are right, he was not weak. If he was sometimes bullied it was because he was always spying on him. I just want to understand one thing: was James bullying only Snape and no one else?
James also hexed people for the fun of it (as a sort of practical joke) and Snape bullied muggleborns. But then again Fred and George also hexed people for the fun of it as a practical joke as well.
I don’t care much for James Potter, because we don’t get a very good glimpse of some of his better traits (besides loving Lily), and he bullied Snape. However, Snape was absolutely horrible to everyone except Slytherin, purposely giving out bad scores and openly hating everyone who wasn't potential death eater material. This was really irritating, and it seemed immature that this teacher would take his revenge on the kids of his past tormentors. He tries to save Harry from the curse in book one, and I get how frustrating that must be to have a kid of his bully come in and be “the chosen one” who’s mother was [Snape’s] long time love. Of course I’m biased, because I like people who treat other people nicely better than those who are nasty to others…
You know, I actually appreciated Rowling's portrayal of James in the book, because when you first hear about him from Harry's perspective, he's very much the hero. The man who stood between Voldemort and Harry, and died in the attempt; the man who made so many friends, and stood up to evil. He really is as many kids imagine their own fathers, or father figures: Perfect, strong, incapable of doing wrong. Yet as the story progresses, we, and Harry, are shown that he wasn't always perfect. That he took situations to his advantage, and could be downright cruel, at times, to another person, for no other reason than it was entertaining to him. Did he change? Sure. He grew up, had a family, and didn't need that satisfaction. But did it "erase" his past discretions? Interesting, actually, that in many peoples' minds, mainly Harry and the Order, it seemed to. People remembered him being high-spirited and a bully, but let it go once he grew up, because he was inherently likable enough to be forgiven. As a person, people could look past all that, because he appealed to people on a level past all that.
Set against Snape, who was also a bully in different way, that characterization is actually really interesting, because Snape wasn't likable at all. Even hearing his past stories, he was always unliked: His father never liked him, his schoolmates never did, and although Lily was his friend, she never reciprocated his feelings. He was never really accepted until he found people like the Death Eaters. And he wasn't inherently evil, obviously; he was just pushed into something, because he was looking for acceptance. Yet people still had a hard time accepting him for being "good", even when he came back to the right side and Dumbledore personally vouched for him, simply because he wasn't as personally likeable, like James was.
Interesting to think about how people are accepting of certain actions, so long as their personality is still acceptable at large.
I think that James was a teenager and was mean but people grow out of that kind of thing.
James wasnt bad. He was in high school. Its common normal stuff that happens to people everyday. Of course he did some stuff that he probably shouldnt have done. If you were a witch or wizard and was gifted such powers, wouldnt you use them sometimes just for the fun of it? The guy was just enjoying life. Plus snape made harry feel horrible and also thinking that he hated him. So eventually, snape was bad too. Neither one of them deserved what happened. Most people look at snape and thinks hes horrible but without snape, harry would not have been fully protected as he was. It was snape who was pretending to be on the voldemort side. Snape was dumbledores eyes and ears. So technically neither of them were bad. Snape did get picked on but dont act like everyday theres someone not being picked on. Both james and snape turned out to be good.
James was a bully but are not most teenagers
James wasn't a bad guy, he was a jerk, but Snape also bullied muggle borns. I think that they both were stupid and idiotic but aren't anymore
James wasn't a bad guy - he was a teenager - teenagers are angsty and mean and they take their emotions out on others. Not that I'm forgiving James for being horrible to Snape, but, people grow up. I'm sure he did.
James was pretty bad to snape. I have no idea why Lily went out with him. He probably matured and stopped hexing people for no reason. If only he could have matured in his first year...like a dog.
Deidre wrote: "You know, I actually appreciated Rowling's portrayal of James in the book, because when you first hear about him from Harry's perspective, he's very much the hero. The man who stood between Voldemo..."I agree with you, when someone grows up, one discovers that parents are imperfect, like every human. On one hand, one can feel deceived and insecure in who to believe in the moment; angry because parents have always told us to be good, don't tell lies when they do it.
On the other hand, one can feel relieved because you figure out that you don't have to be what your parents or the others expect of you.
This topic is also touched in Danny, the Champion of the World and in the Unfortunate Events series.
I appreciated the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene in the Pensieve, because it fit in with Jo's theme that no one's all good or all bad. It would've been trite to portray James as the flawless hero Harry thought him to be.As to whether James counts as a bully, I'd have to say yes -- he and his friends started ganging up on Snape on the Hogwarts Express when they'd just met, before they knew anything about him -- but then again, Snape and his future-Death-Eater friends from Slytherin did horrible things to other students. Lily mentions their use of dark magic and their traumatizing a Muggleborn girl from Gryffindor. So some of James' bad behavior over the years may have been well justified. We don't really have enough information to judge, since our knowledge of the situation jumps from the very beginning of their first year to late in their 5th year, leaving us to guess what happened in between. Maybe we'll all alter our opinions a bit when the Scottish Book comes out. :)
James wasn't a "bad guy" (just compare him to the other bad guys of the story and that much is clear.). He just wasn't always perfect. I think Lupin does say that James grew out of it though, and stopped constantly picking on Snape - I think that was around the time Lily fell in love with him. And James was always nice to the other characters - he was nice to Lily, he learnt to transform into a stag for Lupin, and let Sirius practically move in with him. Not to mention the fact that he was part of the Order, and therefore fighting evil, and eventually died for his family. He was a nice guy, just not prefect in his youth.
James was a bully to Snape. Apparently he tormented other people as well.
I don't think James was a bad guy, he just made bad decisions. I hated what he did to Snape and he was a bit of a showoff...I really have mixed feelings. Like I neither despise him nor like him.
Sean wrote: "I appreciated the "Snape's Worst Memory" scene in the Pensieve, because it fit in with Jo's theme that no one's all good or all bad. It would've been trite to portray James as the flawless hero Har..."
What's the Scottish Book?
What's the Scottish Book?
Heaven wrote: "What's the Scottish Book? "That's the Harry Potter encyclopedia that Jo is supposedly working on. I forget why she calls it that... it has something to do with the play MacBeth, which you're not supposed to talk about in a theater, so actors will refer to it as "the Scottish play" instead.
Rose - I agree; overall, James was definitely a good guy. Jo just likes to remind us that even good guys have their flaws.
As previous people have said I think James wasn't a bad guy but he was by no means perfect. I don't think it was a cool kid vs nerd situation, since James took Peter Pettigrew under his wing, who was by all accounts a bit of a loser. I think it was probably a bit of inter house rivalry and maybe jealousy over Snape's friendship with Lily.Of course James and Sirius seem to have been quite boisterous anyway and Snape seems to have been a little more sensitive. Just some thoughts.
Jordan wrote: "James was terrible to snape. He made his highschool life a living hell from what i saw. But snape was just as horrible a person so i guess he deserved what he got. And james has proved himself on m..."I agree that both James and Snape were equally bad in high school, and that they were typical teenagers, but I do not agree that Snape deserved what he got. Nobody deserves to be bullied. I think James was just trying to get Lily's attention and saw Snape as a threat. As for Sirius, he just didn't like Slytherins--probably some family issue.
Mel wrote: "I must say, I never really liked James.. I don't mind that he died (but Lily was sad, because I think she was a really nice person.)@ Jordan, nobody ever deserves to be bullied, I don't think t..."
Amen to everything you said.
The keyword is "was." James *was* undoubtedly a jerk. If you don't think he was an arrogant, attention-loving bully, then you must have had an amazing high school experience. Those of us who were misanthropic loners in high school, however, can relate to Snape's pain . . . to an extent. Snape's elitism and poor choice in Slytherin friends is pretty inexcusable. No one is saying Snape was a saint. What Jo never showed us was James's redemption. We know that there was a point where he stopped being an absolute jerk, but she never gives us that scene in a Pensieve memory, for instance.
I don't think he was a 'bad guy' in the traditional sense of the word. Like I would refer to Voldemort as the 'bad guy' of the story and Harry as the 'good guy'. But I think he was arrogant, a bully, attention-seeking. I think he had flaws, a lot of flaws. He wasn;t however a bad person. Ultimately he was good. I think Lily perhaps toned down his arrogance. She seemed a sweet good person and in the flash backs she wasn't impressed by James' bullying of Snape. I think he played up in front of his friends, particularly Sirius. He saw Sirius as 'cool' and wanted to impress him. He never followed Voldemort so therefore he couldn't have been a 'bad guy' as he fought for good.http://divaliciouzbookreviews.blogspo...
Danskmacabre wrote: "I agree with some of the comments here that James was a terrible bully to Snape in school.I think it contributed to Snape becoming a deatheater.
However I also think Snape was quite a dark charact..."
First of all, in my opinion James was never the bully to Snape as he was never the victim. I also disagree with your second point. When Andromeda started to go out with Ted don't you think she received a hell of a lot of curses and remarks from her house and family, yet she never did become a Death Eater despite coming from the Black family.
Er, what? Didn't you read the part where Lily thought of James as a jerk and a toe-rag? Lily disliked James because he was very arrogant and used to bully younger people. Lily was never attracted to Snape, they were only friends. Gosh, what you're saying is ridiculous. Lily went out with James because he changed and she also stopped being Snape's friend after he called her a mudblood.
Danskmacabre wrote: "Er, what? Didn't you read the part where Lily thought of James as a jerk and a toe-rag? Lily disliked James because he was very arrogant and used to bully younger people. Lily was never attracted t..."Right, well, I'm not going to apologise as I haven't done anything wrong. But yes, your comment did make me laugh and has just made my day so thanks for that.
Shelby wrote: "James is not the 'bad guy'. However, I don't think he was justified doing what he did to Snape. I'm sure it had something to do with the fact Lily was really close to Snape, but still, it wasn't ..."
I agree with you completely.
We never see whether James grew out of his bullying behavior or if he even felt remorse for it. We do know he continued picking on Snape after he and Lily started dating (it's in Harry's conversation with Lupin and Sirius after seeing the memory) and that James purposely hid that fact from Lily.I'm not sure how anyone can justify James's behavior in the incident we saw in "Snape's Worst Memory". That was textbook bullying.
Ciara wrote: "James was a horrible bully. He made a mistake, and probably later regretted it. He was not a very nice person early in life, and Snape became a Death Eater when he left Hogwarts, so both made some ..."Agreed.
Mickey wrote: "I don't think James was a bad guy, but I do think he had many faults. I also don't see Snape and James on the same level, as far as the bullying goes between them (I'm not discussing Snape's la..."
well-written. agreed.
Deidre wrote: "You know, I actually appreciated Rowling's portrayal of James in the book, because when you first hear about him from Harry's perspective, he's very much the hero. The man who stood between Voldemo..."Ah... interesting.
So the question that arises is, why can't Snape be forgiven for his "indiscretions in the past" like James...?
Mickey wrote: "We never see whether James grew out of his bullying behavior or if he even felt remorse for it. We do know he continued picking on Snape after he and Lily started dating (it's in Harry's conversati..."That is true, but James must have matured if Lily were to date him. Lily was one of the smartest witches of her ages she can't have been totally oblivious.
Granted, James did act like a real git to Snape in that part, but Snape's behaviour and actions should also be taken into account. This is only an assumption, but Snape must have made the Sectumsempra spell for a reason, he might have even used it at one point (it was titled 'for enemies'). He was also friends with Mucliber the guy who used an unforgivable curse on Mary MacDonald, hanging around with that type of company doesn't give him any brownie points.
If Snape can invent his own spells, go on to be a Death Eater and gain DE friends, he can't have been the victim to any of James's actions. Therefore, James was never a bully to Snape as Snape was never the victim. They were as bad as each other.
Hina wrote: "James must have matured if Lily were to date him. Lily was one of the smartest witches of her ages she can't have been totally oblivious."James was still bullying Snape when Lily and James were dating. Sirius and Lupin confirmed that it was still going on and that James kept it hidden from her. Under those circumstances, I don't think you can use the fact that Lily and James were together as proof that James had changed. Lily was either oblivious or didn't care at that point. Or James was just a very skilled liar.
Hina wrote: "If Snape can invent his own spells, go on to be a Death Eater and gain DE friends, he can't have been the victim to any of James's actions. Therefore, James was never a bully to Snape as Snape was never the victim. They were as bad as each other."
If a person is bullied and grows up to do something horrendous, it does not negate the fact that they were bullied. In fact, the rage that bullying can evoke and the determination to not be put into a weak position again is oftentimes seen as a factor to the horrendous act. The bullied are actually more likely to be bullies as well, much like abused children are more likely to grow up to be abusers. There doesn't even have to be an incubation period, either. A person could be being bullied in one relationship and in another relationship be the bully. It's a mentality that some people grow up in.
There were quite a few students who ended up being Death Eaters and being interested in the Dark Arts. But James didn't go after them like he went after Snape. What made Snape different from those other students? What made him such a target for James and the others? I'd say it had more to do with the fact that he was a loner, odd, poor, and unattractive than that James was repulsed by his interest in the Dark Arts, like Sirius was claiming. He didn't go after the ringleader of the future Death Eaters. He went after the most vunerable member. James went after Snape when he was alone and humiliated him when he was defenseless (without his wand). That's pretty cowardly.
When Lily asked James, "What has he [Snape] ever done to you?", James replied, "It's more the fact that he exists." James did not mention that Snape had done anything to him or discuss how offensive he found his actions. Instead, he defended his actions by saying that there was something intrinsically wrong with Snape that gave James permission to treat him that way. He was blaming the victim.
Mickey wrote: "We never see whether James grew out of his bullying behavior or if he even felt remorse for it. We do know he continued picking on Snape after he and Lily started dating (it's in Harry's conversati..."I absolutely agree with Mickey here. There's no excusing James's behavior towards Snape. He lived a privileged life.
Now, Snape isn't exactly justified either, but think about how he was raised. In a clearly abusive household. Perhaps that might foster his thirst for acceptance from a rough crowd. Evidence shows that bullies live in turmoil-filled households, that they are bullied themselves.
Hina wrote: "Mickey wrote: "We never see whether James grew out of his bullying behavior or if he even felt remorse for it. We do know he continued picking on Snape after he and Lily started dating (it's in Har..."I don't think your argument follows. James *was* a bully to Snape. Snape was a victim. Now, Snape was a bully himself, but here's a novel thought: bullies can be victims as well. "Snape's Worst Memory" illustrates pretty clearly how James had way more power (and reinforcements in the likes of Sirius) than Snape could have.
Tanvi wrote: "Deidre wrote: "You know, I actually appreciated Rowling's portrayal of James in the book, because when you first hear about him from Harry's perspective, he's very much the hero. The man who stood ..."I think Snape is forgiven--by Rowling and other characters, not readers. We do see his redeeming qualities at the end, Snape is justified.
I agree with Litera that you can't really judge people by what they are like as teenagers because people are still learning and growing into themselves. It's what they become in the end, what choices do they make that decide what side are they going to be on. Snape was a deatheater. James stood up against deatheaters. It wasn't until Lily died that Snape changed sides.
James grew out of his bullying, Snape didn't.
Mickey wrote: "Hina wrote: "James must have matured if Lily were to date him. Lily was one of the smartest witches of her ages she can't have been totally oblivious."James was still bullying Snape when Lily a..."
Yep, okay, I understand your point of view and respect it, but I view Snape and James's actions in school as bad as each other, Snape slightly more so.
Mostly towards your second paragraph, I don't think James particularly picked on Snape just because he was poor and lonely and unattractive, I think it was the reason why Lily chose to be with Snape than with James, I think Remus mentioned that James did crazy things around Lily, obviously that doesn't excuse his actions.
I don't think what James said was actually meant to be serious, he after all did save Snape from the Willow and Remus, but yes, I think it was just a joke.
Corey wrote: "Hina wrote: "Mickey wrote: "We never see whether James grew out of his bullying behavior or if he even felt remorse for it. We do know he continued picking on Snape after he and Lily started dating..."I wouldn't say that James had more power, I don't think Voldemort would recruit someone with little power and Snape did have his friends too, how would he have survived being in Slytherin with only Lily as a friend?
Kerri wrote: "Tanvi wrote: "Deidre wrote: "You know, I actually appreciated Rowling's portrayal of James in the book, because when you first hear about him from Harry's perspective, he's very much the hero. The ..."Yes, I agree.
No. James was full of himself and arrogant, like loads of other teenage boys. He picked on Snape, and he wasn't kind to him. He was jealous and overbearing, but he learned, he grew up, and it seems, Snape didn't. He held a grudge, and even after James saved his life, he somehow found a way to incriminate him. Snape even let it go so far as to shoulder Harry with the things James had done to him, neglecting to realize that Harry really wasn't a thing like he'd made him out to be. I don't think James' character can be determined by a few minutes of memory from Snape. You need to take into account how Remus and Sirius saw him, how they loved him. Yeah, he was a bit big-headed. So was Harry, so was Ron, but they grew out of it. Did it make them bad people? No. So why should you consider James "bad"?Honestly...James Potter was a perfectly normal teenage boy, taking out his jealousy on his crush's geeky best friend with whom he'd had a rivalry from day one.
{Don't read if you haven't finished the series} James was just a kid. He grew up to be a nice guy. Snape wasn't all that terrible to James in particular, but he was to other people. But there is an explanation for his supposed 'hatred' for Harry. I actually would've liked to see that Snape ended up with Lily, but obviously that didn't happen. I do think both James and Snape were good guys. So neither of them are really the 'bad guy' in my opinion.
I can't believe the amount of James apologism on this thread. James was a horrible, horrible bully and a worthless idiot, and just because he was Harry's Dad doesn't change that fact. Snape, on the other hand was an unsuspecting outsider badly picked on by this gang of bullies. I can't even believe anybody can see it any other way.
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1) So.. Is Snape Harry's dad?
To which I replied: Ew.
2) So, Harry's dad is the bad guy, right? He was like the school bully?
That question horrified me! James is one of my favorite characters (Next to Sirius and the twins) he is not a bully, Snape was just as much of a jerk to James as James was to him! But the more I think about the more I think my mom was right..
I also think that the movie paints a different picture than the books do. You only really see Snape's side of the story, but looking back (and it's been a while since I've read the books, so I may be wrong) it seems like Harry was simply trying to justify that what James did to Snape.
What do you guys think? Was James a jerk? Or was it justified?