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Nicholas Nickleby: Week 02 - Chapters 6-10
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Zulfiya
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Jan 14, 2012 07:35PM
Please join us and post your thoughts on the second section of the book.
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New characters are still being introduced in the book, namely Mrs. Squeers, Miss Squeers, Mr. Squeers Jr, Miss Price, Her fiancé, Smike, an unknown gentleman, Miss La Creevy . Whom do you find the most interesting? Dickens is also known for his short-story skills. Some of them even contain some dark elements. In this section Dickens, using one of his characters, told us two short stories in chapter 6. What is the purpose of those stories within the story? Have you found them interesting, entertaining, macabre, educational, dull, out-of-place?
The true nature of the boarding school ‘Dotheboys Hall’ has been revealed. Does this image look somewhat hyperbolized, and if yes, is there any possible explanation for this exaggerated evil?
Smike is one of the heart-wrenching characters. The lines about his possible death and solitude in his death were so memorable and touching that they moved me to tears. What is your opinion of Smike?
There is one definite thing I like about early Dickens novels – he combines masterfully sadness and joy, satire and humour. What is your opinion of chapter 9? Do you feel sorry for ‘poor Miss Squeers’? It is surprising, but Dickens was absolutely non-judgmental in this chapter, and his narrative voice had distinct detached qualities. For a moment I even felt sorry for Miss Squeers. She has been trapped in the most ambiguous situation.
These are very general and tentative observations just to initiate the discussion.
Please do not forget to post and share your favourite quotes.
At this point in the novel I feel that Mr. Squeers is the most interesting character, or maybe I should say that his character is the most developed. It always seems to me that the “evil” characters are the most attention grabbing and entertaining to read about.In reference to the two short stories in chapter 6, I do feel that they are out of place. While reading I was thinking what the heck is the stuff, filler for a fat novel? However, I suppose they may be symbolic of something and perhaps when I am finished reading Nicholas Nickleby I will go back and re-read the short stories to see if they had any significance or foreshadowing.
Zulfiya, it never occurred to me to feel sorry for Miss Squeers, but now that you mention it, I do feel sorry for her in that she has degenerate parents and the odds of her overcoming her upbringing are slim.
Mod
For those who read Oliver, Mr & Mrs Squeers remind me a bit of Mr & Mrs Bumble, taking advantage of the poor and weak while congratulating themselves on their generosity, and enjoying all the best items for themselves. On his return from London, Squeers asks after the pigs and cows before getting news on the boys.
I liked this passage about the Squeers children
"the young lady and gentleman being occupied in the adjustment of some youthful differences, by means of a pugilistic contest across the table, which, on the approach of their honored parent, subsided into a noiseless exchange of kicks beneath it."
I was struck by the description of the boys who suffered from various handicaps as well as the neglect of the school. Not only would parents get rid of unwelcome stepsons as Mr. Snawley did, but also they could hide anyone they were ashamed of.
Of course there is exaggeration for comic effect but there apparently were some pretty horrific schools, such as the one the Brontes attended. I don't know why England developed such a big tradition of boarding schools compared to other countries, which puts the children totally at the mercy of the school.
Seeuuder wrote: "At this point in the novel I feel that Mr. Squeers is the most interesting character, or maybe I should say that his character is the most developed. It always seems to me that the “evil” character..."I don't know if this has any validity or not, but I think the stories that are inserted sort of haphazardly here are because this story, like the ones before (Pickwick Papers, Oliver Twist) were published serially, over a period of months or years, and so the object or purpose was to extend and entertain over a period of time. This link (http://www.online-literature.com/dick...) tells how NN is a transition piece between CD's works that are essentially sketches (i.e., Sketches by Boz), short pieces strung together more by continuing characters (Pickwick) than a continuous narrative, which NN becomes after overcoming its "short sketches tied together willy-nilly" beginnings. It's an interesting theory, whether or not it is something that Dickens would confirm or not :)
I also found this piece that extols "flattery" as the central theme of NN: http://www.dickens-theme.pwp.blueyond...I hadn't thought of this before, although it does seem to make some relevant points.
Hi, I fell way behind during The Pickwick Papers, then caught up recently when I read Oliver Twist in one week. So, I hope to join in more often here now that I'm caught up with the Project. Here goes:Zulfiya wrote: "Dickens is also known for his short-story skills. Some of them even contain some dark elements. In this section Dickens, using one of his characters, told us two short stories in chapter 6. What is the purpose of those stories within the story? Have you found them interesting, entertaining, macabre, educational, dull, out-of-place?"
The stories within the story were entertaining, but I didn't feel like they had any major bearing on the book as a whole. It definitely made me think of The Pickwick Papers where Dickens employed this many times.
What is your opinion of Smike?
Smike is certainly a tragic character. I fear for his future in this novel.
Do you feel sorry for ‘poor Miss Squeers’?
This is interesting. I agree that Dickens is quite ambiguous about his opinion of Miss Squeers in Chapter 9. It's not clear if she takes after her parents, or whether she is a victim, of sorts, of her circumstances and upbringing. I'm not sure if I feel sorry for her yet, but I'm keeping an open mind. :)
Chapter 10 I thought was pretty foreboding. I feel terrible for Kate and her mother and fear for them both. Ralph Nickleby is showing himself to be truly evil.
Dickens made my heart ache for the children in the school. They were cold, hungry, and lonely. Mr. and Mrs. Squeers do not show them any kindness either. I thought the two short stories were completely out of place.
Zulfiya wrote: "New characters are still being introduced in the book, namely Mrs. Squeers, Miss Squeers, Mr. Squeers Jr, Miss Price, Her fiancé, Smike, an unknown gentleman, Miss La Creevy . Whom do you find the most interesting? "Regarding this question, I agree with Seeuder that Mr. Squeers is probably the most developed character at this point and therefore the most striking one. His behaviour and attitude towards the boys that are under his care is very disturbing.
Zulfiya wrote: "..., told us two short stories in chapter 6. What is the purpose of those stories within the story? Have you found them interesting, entertaining, macabre, educational, dull, out-of-place?"
At first I thought that these stories were more for general entertainment, but looking at them with a different glance, there might be some parallels with the lives of the characters we are getting step by step acquainted to. E.g. the second short story about a man, who is close to committing suicide, but who then reconsiders and in the end tries to make the best out of what he has.
The first story is maybe about the impact of positive memories from the past and how they can help to cope with the present, which could also well become important for the one or other character in the book.
This might be completely off-track, but I still believe that Dickens wanted to make some kind of connection between these short stories and the actual story of the book. And maybe this will become clearer in the course of the book.
Zulfiya wrote: "The true nature of the boarding school ‘Dotheboys Hall’ has been revealed. Does this image look somewhat hyperbolized, and if yes, is there any possible explanation for this exaggerated evil? "
I was - similar to Christyb - very touched by the description of the boarding school, the kids and their treatment. The way Dickens describes it you almost feel as if you are in Nicholas's place and have to watch all of this without being able to do anything.
"What is your opinion of Smike? "
He plays definitely at this point the most tragic role, as he is the only one of the suffering boys, who has really been in an active role so far. It will be interesting to learn more about his story and how he got there and why he is there.
"...he combines masterfully sadness and joy, satire and humour. What is your opinion of chapter 9? Do you feel sorry for ‘poor Miss Squeers’? It is surprising, but Dickens was absolutely non-judgmental in this chapter, and his narrative voice had distinct detached qualities. For a moment I even felt sorry for Miss Squeers. She has been trapped in the most ambiguous situation."
The scenes in chapter 9 reminded me a little of Jane Austen. I am not sure whether I could say that I felt sorry for Miss Squeers. First of all, she makes more out of her relationship with Nicholas than there actually is due to her fear of not getting married soon, though her younger friend is already engaged and then she gets disappointed because the attraction between Nicholas and her friend is definitely stronger than the one with her. However, she seems different from her parents and her cruel brother, but I am not yet sure what kind of role she will in the end play.
I agree with Alice about chapter 10. I think that Ralph is showing his evil side more and more and wrapping it in "charity work", for which Kate and her mother have to be grateful. It is really sad to see how dependent you were as a woman in those times.
I was also a little struck by Mr. Mantalini, who seems to me - from the little description we received - like a kind of "playboy", who marries an older woman with money and at the same time is surrounded by many young, partially pretty, and very dependent women/ girls. I did not like the way he seemed to be attracted to Kate, which also seems almost like a bad omen for her future.
Greetings, group...I just uploaded a couple more illustrations from NN to the photos....Wackford Squeers is portrayed in all his one-eyed glory, and the poor "scarecrows" of the school, and the tea-party gone wrong. I have just finished reading Chapter 10, and although it seems pretty certain that Mr. Mantalini is going to turn out to be a rascal, I like him "demnebly" well!
Mod
Wasn't Dickens' wife's sister named Alice? The one that Dickens was highly attracted to and who died young? He never really got over that. It jumped off the page for me while reading the Five Sisters story in Chapter 6. Hmmm. The most beautiful sister and the one who died - Alice. If I remember the name correctly, then to me this story as well as the second represents his marriage which might have become easy fodder for filler. (say that 3 times fast!)
I ached for the boys in the schools too, yet also found myself amused at some of the things. How Dickens can combine such profound sadness along with laughter is amazing to me.
In regard to the school (Chapter 7), the location almost seems like a typical house instead of a school. I know it says it's not called a hall locally but Squeers refers to it that way to sell the school. Some school. You aren't fed appropriately, aren't taught much, the staff take your belongs, and it all goes to Squeers, Jr.
I, too, was struck by the ability to hide deformed or otherwise kids in this terrible place. I know we weren't much better either as kids were put into asylums here. It was very foreboding to me to have the door to the students' sleeping area described as the death's door. Death and hell were referenced several times in these chapters. Also in Chapter 8 it indicates the Squeers see the boys as their natural enemies!
I am very worried about the outcome of Kate's employment and Kate's mother. The fact that Ralph wanted to put her in the country in the poor house was very distressing. As mentioned in the previous chapters, the two Nickelby brothers were like Cain and Abel. Ralph is definitely concerned about money and things for himself and has seemingly little or no compassion for those that are in need.
Hedi wrote: "The first story is maybe about the impact of positive memories from the past and how they can help to cope with the present, which could also well become important for the one or other character in the book."This is a good point. In the conversation between Nicholas and Smike, doesn't Smike say something about how some boys might have happy memories to fall back on, but Smike has been at the school so long that he has forgotten them, or perhaps that he never had any happy memories even as a toddler?
I found the chapter about life at the school almost unbearably pathetic and horrifying. It's been a long time since I read Oliver Twist, but I don't recall there being anything quite as bad in that book in terms of mistreatment of children. And the school in David Copperfield is a resort by comparison. What the chapter calls to mind for me, oddly enough, is Upton Sinclair's The Jungle - just in terms of how much of a horror story it tells in the service of a social reform cause. The picture Dickens paints of parents or uncles/aunts getting rid of handicapped, illegitimate, orphaned, or unwanted step- children by handing them over to a Squeers type with a wink and a nod just makes my stomach turn.
Oops, I got behind already. I'm trying to get caught up this weekend. Most interesting character:
Like everyone else, I think the "evil" characters are far more interesting and well-developed at this point in the novel.
Boarding schools:
I also found the treatment of the children to be horrifying. The little I know of the history of English boarding schools makes it even worse since I know that these kinds of things really did happen.
Smike: His story is so sad.
Chapter 9:
Hedi wrote: "The scenes in chapter 9 reminded me a little of Jane Austen."
I thought the same thing while I was reading it. This was my favorite chapter so far. I loved the dialogue and reactions of the various characters.
Favorite quotes:
The dialogue between Squeers and his wife was really good, and the descriptions of each new character continues to be wonderful. He really paints a picture with words.
Robin wrote: "I liked this passage about the Squeers children "the young lady and gentleman being occupied in the adjustment of some youthful differences, by means of a pugilistic contest across the table, which, on the approach of their honored parent, subsided into a noiseless exchange of kicks beneath it.""
I liked that part too. My older brother and I did the same thing when we were kids.
One of the things that always strikes me about Dickens' works is that he rarely ventures into the gray areas with his characters. They are either good (or innocent) or bad, bordering on "evil." As a technique, it worked, because his books have been influential. But at the same time, it bothers me a bit. Rarely are people truly good without having some flaws, and rarely are people truly bad without having some redeeming features.And I've got to do some research (adding to a very long list of things that I have to research) the true state of British education for the lower classes at that time. It seems that every institution in his novels treat children horrifically. Weren't there any teachers at that time that were nice? ;)
Again, I obviously know that he's making a point, but I preferred the tone of the Pickwick Papers - Pickwick is a good guy, but he's a bit clueless. Sam is loyal, but he doesn't mind bending the rules a bit.
As for the stories, I found them interesting, but at this point, they don't seem to have much to do with the overall story.
Here is something about Victorian education Lynn:-http://www.logicmgmt.com/1876/schools...
My Yorkshire grandfather used to tell me horrific tales about the schools of his time and he said that many were indeed like Dotheboys Hall:( Dickens was exposing the bad schools of his time but no doubt there were some good teachers around too. His good v. evil scenarios are what Victorians liked. Theirs was a very black and white world where the good prospered and went to heaven but the bad didn't and went to hell:).
MadgeUK wrote: "Here is something about Victorian education Lynn:-http://www.logicmgmt.com/1876/schools...
My Yorkshire grandfather used to tell me horrific tales about the schools of his time and he said that..."
Thanks for the link, Madge.
Yes, you are right - the Victorians did have a black and white world that didn't leave any room for interpretation of those pesky gray areas.
And if you were poor or lost money or were in debt, you obviously did something wrong to deserve that "punishment."
Doesn't leave much room for compassion and kindness.
Of course, life was much harder, and there was a definite survival of the fittest mentality - excuse my language, but a "screw them, before I get screwed by them" mentality. And I'm sure a fear in the back of their minds that the same fate could happen to them if they didn't keep on their toes. Sounds harsh, but they did what they had to do to get by.
Which is why, towards the end of that period there were reformers like Dickens urging that we needed state help with welfare and which is why, as the harsher side of capitalism begins to bite again, we need it still:).
MadgeUK wrote: "Which is why, towards the end of that period there were reformers like Dickens urging that we needed state help with welfare and which is why, as the harsher side of capitalism begins to bite again..."Welcome back to the Dickens club. Your input is always valuable.
I do rather like the conversations between Misses Squeers and Price - the way they squabble and then make up in the course of a few minutes struck me as "true to life" even if exaggerated. (Now I am imagining the snorts of female good-readers!) Dickens male perspective on that may be off-putting to some, but at least he showed them here as human, rather than black-and-white. Unfortunately, as somebody pointed out, Miss Squeers' "humanness" in these chapters doesn't seem to last long, as she will shortly morph into more of an over-the-top "evil" character.
Bob wrote: "I do rather like the conversations between Misses Squeers and Price - the way they squabble and then make up in the course of a few minutes struck me as "true to life" even if exaggerated. (Now I a..."You are absolutely right, Bob. I personally remember numerous episodes of high school drama when girls were the bitter enemies and in five minutes the best buddies conspiring against someone else. I have always hated this feature in 'fellow gender creatures'. I hope the last three words make sense:-)
Zulfiya wrote: "Bob wrote: "I do rather like the conversations between Misses Squeers and Price - the way they squabble and then make up in the course of a few minutes struck me as "true to life" even if exaggerat..."They definitely are true to life! No snorts here. ;) What I like about Dickens is that he is definitely an equal opportunity type of writer. Both genders, all class levels, all professions are under his scrutiny and open to his wit.
Enjoying the comments here. While the school descriptions are rather sad, I find that I am more disturbed by the naivete of the Nickleby's. Dickens surely does not create much sympathy for Mrs. Nickleby, the widow. She is a ridiculous, even comical character, who is easily manipulated. I find it frustrating at this point that Nicholas has done nothing about the things he has witnessed at Dotheboys. He neither protests the conditions and treatments, nor seeks another situation. I don't get it. Unlike Oliver Twist, he is not a helpless child. I want to see some action out of Nicholas!
Maybe this is because such behaviour is commonplace in the schools of the time, in the schoolmasters of the time (as my grandfather intimated it was). Nicholas would perhaps be complaining about things which the average person took for granted.
