Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
ABOUT BOOKS AND READING
>
What are U reading these days? (PART EIGHT (2012) (ONGOING THREAD for 2012)
I was only six years old when the power of this terrible man started his rule. What is so sad is that intelligent men were fooled into believing what he wanted them to believe. By the time I was old enough to grasp his evil ways I couldn't imagine anyone being taken in by him. I was naive.probably mispelled.
I once wrote a paper for a Psychology course about 'mob mentality' and cited the average German person during this time, people who would normally have never considered aligning themselves with this lunatic but were swayed by the real phenomenon of mob mentality. It's mind-blowing to me that people can be swayed so easily by pressure from those around them but we see it all the time.
And don't forget, Hitler used fear as a weapon. Any dissenters were cruelly punished.
That was after he rose to power, I mean how he got the support of the people to gain the power in the first place.I saw a movie about Vlad Tepes and he said how greed motivates men to do evil things, but while in captivity he learned that fear was even better. He became a man to be feared in during his reign in Wallachia.
Jackie wrote: "That was after he rose to power, I mean how he got the support of the people to gain the power in the first place.I saw a movie about Vlad Tepes and he said how greed motivates men to do evil thi..."
I guess it all comes under the heading of "indoctrination". There are many methods of persuasion. See my review of Freedom of Mind at:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
See the acronym: BITE which stands for:
---Behavior control
---Information control
---Thought control
---Emotional control
Oh yes, absolutely! There are many forms of indoctrination, from subtle to obvious, but both are equally debilitating, taking a person's choices from them, even when they think it's their own idea...which is somehow worse to me.
Jackie wrote: "Oh yes, absolutely! There are many forms of indoctrination, from subtle to obvious, but both are equally debilitating, taking a person's choices from them, even when they think it's their own idea..."Frightening, isn't it?
Don't forget that Hitler started out pretty good, too. He was a solution to the staggering hardships of post WWI Germany. Their economy was in ruins & he turned that around. It wasn't until the very end that most Germans even began to get rumors about his worst abuses & they were locked into WWII at the time.
Jim wrote: "Don't forget that Hitler started out pretty good, too. He was a solution to the staggering hardships of post WWI Germany. Their economy was in ruins & he turned that around. It wasn't until the ..."Yes, I think the same was true of Mussolini in Italy. He headed many programs which improved Italy's domestic situation.
I haven't read anything about Mussolini, but it wouldn't surprise me. People don't normally hand over power knowingly to folks like him & Hitler. They're fulfilling a need, then change for the worse. Hindsight is 20/20.
This is what happens when people want/expect 'change', change isn't good enough unless it's clearly defined.
Yes, as Jim said, hindsight is 20/20. That's a good way to put it.As for change, there's usually a trade-off. You gain in one way but you lose in another way. Life is full of trade-offs. Some are good and some aren't so good.
But how could anyone as evil as Hitler start out "Good?" I guess he convinced some of the people but not all. My daughter's mother in law lived in Krakow, Poland. Someone left two babies in a basket on their doorstip when she was a child. She helped care for them as of course did her mother. She loved them as they grew almost as if they were her little sisters. The babies were Jewish. A few years later a lady pretending to be a nurse came to the door and said she must take the little girls to the hospital for check-ups. They never saw them again. My daughter's mother in law still grieves for her little 'sisters." You have heard many stories like this, as have I, but never before a first hand account By the way, this lady had Pope John Paul as her catechism teacher as a little girl.
After this incident the family had to flee because they harbored Jews; my daughter in law's mother remembers running down the street and hearing the boots of the policemen trying to catch her clattering behind as she ran and actually did escape. End of story.
Nina, wow! To know someone who had that kind of experience... I can't even imagine. (On a side note, I just finished reading Fall of Giants, which covers WW1. The second book, Winter of the World, covers WW2, and I'm hoping that start it this week.) I'm such a sucker for WW2 stuff... and the WW1 book was amazing. I plan to read more about WW1.
Nina wrote: "But how could anyone as evil as Hitler start out "Good?" I guess he convinced some of the people but not all. My daughter's mother in law lived in Krakow, Poland. Someone left two babies in a baske..."Nina, that is so horrific! So sad.
Jenni wrote: "... I just finished reading Fall of Giants, which covers WW1. The second book, Winter of the World, covers WW2, and I'm hoping that start it this week.)..."Hi Jenni. Good to see you here again! I have several books by Ken Follett on my To-Read shelf. One of these days I will try one of them.
Just now, I looked back at my previous comments. At one point I wrote: "I tried reading The Pillars of the Earth but couldn't get into it. Too many characters were introduced at once, if I remember correctly."
That is horrific, Nina. As to how Hitler could start out as 'good', I've read that inflation was so bad people couldn't afford to buy food when he first got elected. He turned the economy around. Being able to feed my family would have made him 'good' in my eyes, at the time. Who knew that he would turn into such an evil? Possibly the government that put him in prison before that, but they were the ones that allowed their own people to starve. I guess folks just didn't have a lot of good choices at the time.
How well informed were the people of what he was doing? Did anyone know what happened to the people who disappeared, at least at first? Wasn't there some sort of letter writing cover up that went on for years in some cases?
Hi Joy! :) Yes, Ken Follett does introduce a lot of characters at once in several of his books. With Fall of Giants, I hard to start over because I took a break from reading it, and found that I couldn't remember everyone. If I remember correctly, Whiteout doesn't do this as much as Pillars/World Without End/Fall of Giants... and it's a good book, and much shorter. If you ever want to try a shorter (but good) Follett book... consider Whiteout. :) (Oh, and it's always a pleasure to be part of this group - I really enjoy the insightful and meaningful discussion, not to mention the great people!)Jim - You know, I think I remember someone in this thread mentioning that people weren't well-informed of what he was doing, at least at first. I've been reading a lot of Russian historical fiction lately... and have found that (it seems) like the average person really had no idea how incredibly much the government was covering up... So yes, I sure could believe that the Germans didn't know what all was going on at first, especially since he did do good for the country at first.
Thanks for the kind words, Jenni.Thanks too for recommending Follett's Whiteout. I'll put on my To-Read shelf.
Jenni, when are most people ever well informed? We like to think so today in a country that prides itself on a free press, but in reality we're drowning in information & can barely keep track of headlines much less understand the real issues behind them. We usually never even hear about that because it's too complicated for our limited attention spans. I loathe political ads & that's because they're a good example of what I mean. A bash ad says, "X voted against [insert something good]". Yes, X voted against a bill that would have done this good thing, but it also would have done 5 other things that were awful. Those things just aren't mentioned. This is 'truth' in the political world.
Read Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. My review has the quote by Captain Beatty that I think is particularly pertinent here:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Bradbury's own statements about how this book was so ironically 'burned' are also mentioned.
For in depth political coverage, some listen to talking heads like Limbaugh or Maher. The fact that they have sponsors to please, thus are paid to have an opinion with a particular slant, doesn't do much for their presentation of the facts. I saw some on Jeopardy not long ago & they were completely ignorant of well known historical facts in their own fields, but they're probably smart people. It's tough to be informed & I wonder if anyone can do it. Maybe that's why the president either goes gray or loses all his hair.
Even a bit of reading outside our normal realm will show just how ignorant we are. I read Illicit: How Smugglers, Traffickers, and Copycats are Hijacking the Global Economy, a bit of Middle Eastern recent history, & some related searches. I've decided I have no clue about US foreign policy. I mean, none. I can't say that what we do is good or bad or what a decent alternative is. The only sure thing is the next step is going to be into another cow pie.
Afghanistan is a good example. The Taliban was horrible, but they hated drugs & kept a lid on them. We got rid of them & the country returned to its cash crop, opium. Not only can a local farmer make a lot more money with less work than if he raised wheat, but the warlords of the areas demand that he do so. Thousands are fleeing the country & are in camps on the borders. Our invasion was a good thing? Bad?
We helped create Kuwait by cutting it out of Iraq half a century or so ago. I remember hearing about it in the 70's as the richest country per capita in the world & how great it was that we'd helped them up. No one mentioned that 2% of the population held 98% of that money, though. Not exactly a shining example of democracy. Of course, our fiddling hasn't exactly worked out so well today, either.
Every little piece of the world is complicated & all those pieces tie together very closely today. People we've never heard of can suddenly cause global crises. A student in the Philippines caused companies around the globe to lose billions of dollars on a lark (the Love Letter virus). A minister in Pakistan made a few bucks through his cousin in the Philippines & North Korea wound up with nuclear technology. Floods in Taiwan caused a hard drive shortage throughout the world not long ago. One earthquake in Japan completely shut down RAM manufacturing for 6 months back in the 90's. A 1 mb stick of RAM went from $35 to $125 almost over night.
I met a gal from Uzbekistan who loathed either UNICEF or the United Way - can't recall which. It seems that every time the charity gave school supplies to her area, her family was forced to buy them. No, that's not the way it's supposed to work, but that's the reality of living under the current president. As one of the Russian minority, this gal never even got a chance to vote. She was told to come back in the afternoon & then told she should have voted in the morning.
Most people probably never heard of half the above. How many other things of even more importance happen every day? Yet we feel we're well informed? No, I can't cast stones at some German who got sucked in by Hitler & realized too late what he had really supported.
Jim wrote: "Jenni, when are most people ever well informed? We like to think so today in a country that prides itself on a free press, but in reality we're drowning in information & can barely keep track of h..."All good points, Jim. I wonder if any of our presidents ever really understood the whole picture, even though they have advisors who are supposed to be experts.
Joy H. wrote: "Jim wrote: "Jenni, when are most people ever well informed? We like to think so today in a country that prides itself on a free press, but in reality we're drowning in information & can barely kee..."Jim, I totally agree! Also, even though we are drowning in information, there is just so much that the government won't tell us... even when it knows. And then we get these half-truths, and are often not told of the consequences (as you pointed out)... it's frustrating.
Thanks for both book recommendations, I've been meaning to read the Ray Bradbury book for awhile, and that second book looks quite interesting. :)
Jim, you put into words the thoughts I have and cannot express in the exact way I mean. TYAnd even though I just read the 451 review only a month ago, I have to repeat myself and say it's one of the best reviews I've ever had the pleasure to read. I haven't done audio yet, but if/when I do, the edition you recommend is the one I'll choose.
Oh Jim, I LOVE your review... I also love audio books. My library doesn't have the specific one that you recommend, so I'm going to hunt around... I also own the book, so I could just read it.
Joy, I sure hope our presidents do understand all the issues, but that's no guarantee they'll do the right or even the best thing. There was a SF trilogy I read a long time ago Colossus Trilogy: Colossus/Fall of Colossus/Colossus and the Crab about a computer that we put in charge of our world because people were too corrupt & things were too complicated for us to govern ourselves. Things didn't work out so well, but I wonder sometimes...-----------
Jenni, if you want to read 'Illicit' PM me your address & I'll pass it along. I won't be re-reading it, but it was an eye-opener.
"...even when it knows..." is a really good point & ties in with what Joy mentioned. The buck might stop at the presidential desk, but there are plenty that fall into black holes within the burgeoning Federal bureaucratic morass.
----------
Jackie, thank you!
Jim wrote: "Afghanistan is a good example. The Taliban was horrible, but they hated drugs & kept a lid on them. We got rid of them & the country returned to its cash crop, opium. Not only can a local farmer make a lot more money with less work than if he raised wheat, but the warlords of the areas demand that he do so. Thousands are fleeing the country & are in camps on the borders. Our invasion was a good thing? Bad?"The invasion was in response to a first strike on New York City by the Taliban, who allied themselves with al-Qaeda, so in my vocabulary it was GOOD. Everyone I know (though I admit my acquaintances aren't terribly broad) approved of the invasion wholeheartedly. Washington's prosecution of the war, and indeed any of our wars, is where the problem is. There are no selfless patriots in Washington, they WILL NOT fight wars to WIN. They simply want to drag them out, make themselves money, get corporate backing for reelection and wait till Americas stomach for returning body bags reaches a saturation point, then beat a retreat.
And no, I don't give a damn about Afghanistan, they are the enemy, they are still killing our guys. I have even stronger emotions about Pakistan.
Earl, I understand where you're coming from, and agree with a lot of what you wrote.Osama bin Laden and his organization did put down roots in Afghanistan, starting when he was fighting (with U.S. support, at the time) against the Soviet occupation; and the Taliban did consider him an ally in pushing their brand of extremist Islam. Interestingly, though, it's come to light that before 9/11, the Taliban foreign minister sent an emissary to a U.S. intelligence official in Pakistan (we didn't have diplomatic relations with the Taliban regime at the time, I believe) to warn him that a major attack on U.S. soil was being plotted. That official decided not to bother passing on the warning to Washington, on the grounds that he'd been hearing the same thing from a number of sources and it hadn't materialized yet. (!! :-( ) And after 9/11, when the U.S. demanded that the Afghans hand over bin Laden, they did NOT outright refuse to. They did ask to first see evidence of his guilt (which I suspect was a face-saving measure), which is not, on its face, an unreasonable request. The Bush administration refused on the grounds that it would "compromise our intelligence." That sounds good, until you ask the obvious question, wouldn't presenting the evidence in court at his trial also have "compromised our intelligence?" (Unless they simply intended to shoot him on the plane, a course I wouldn't approve of. I'm not cool with giving the government carte blanche to kill anybody they think deserves it; if you agree with their assessment of dessert this time, the next time you may not.) IMO, it's entirely possible that if Bush had met their request, bin Laden would have been handed over and faced punishment at the time, and a lot of people who are dead now would still be living.
It's true that the Taliban government was a brutal, despotic regime with a warped ideology. I just don't happen to think that it's America's mission to save everybody in the world from every brutal, despotic regime with a warped ideology that exists anywhere (and there are quite a few of them!), and send American soldiers to their deaths to do it. Nor do I favor engaging in acts of war without a legal and constitutional declaration of war. That isn't an idiot's quibble; it's a determination to place the deciding power in the hands where it belongs, if this polity is a republic and not a dictatorship.
(Now I'll get down from my soapbox and shut up. :-) )
I just finished Hounded by Kevin Hearne. My review is here:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
I'm going to start on Hammered next.
Jenni, "Illicit" went out to you today in the mail. It went media mail, so it could take up to a month to get there. Most folks seem to get it quickly, but it depends.=====
Earl & Werner, I'm more interested in the results. Did we do a good thing getting rid of the Taliban? I don't know enough, but it sure looks like we just traded one bad situation for an equally bad one from the little I know - the cow pie shuffle I mentioned.
Jim wrote: "Jenni, "Illicit" went out to you today in the mail. It went media mail, so it could take up to a month to get there. Most folks seem to get it quickly, but it depends.=====
Thanks Jim! I'll let you know when I get it... and it's much appreciated. :)
Jim wrote: "I just finished Hounded by Kevin Hearne. My review is here:http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
I'm going to start on Hammered next."
Jim, I like Hearne's titles in The Iron Druid Chronicles: "Hounded", "Hexed", "Hammered", and "Hunted", among them. I liked your review of "Hounded". Now I'm wondering what those "different critters", mentioned in your review, were. :)
Mythological & fantasy critters, Joy. Not just the run-of-the-mill vampires & werewolves, although both of those are in there, but different, specific types of witches, demons, & entire pantheons of gods including Christian, Hindu, & Celtic. Makes for a fun mix.
Jim,I don't feel GoodReads is a proper forum for this political discussion, so after this reply I too will dismount the soapbox and shut up. But I can't resist contradicting you this final time.
Werner wrote: "And after 9/11, when the U.S. demanded that the Afghans hand over bin Laden, they did NOT outright refuse to. They did ask to first see evidence of his guilt (which I suspect was a face-saving measure), which is not, on its face, an unreasonable request. The Bush administration refused on the grounds that it would "compromise our intelligence." That sounds good, until you ask the obvious question, wouldn't presenting the evidence in court at his trial also have "compromised our intelligence?" (Unless they simply intended to shoot him on the plane, a course I wouldn't approve of. I'm not cool with giving the government carte blanche to kill anybody they think deserves it; if you agree with their assessment of dessert this time, the next time you may not.) IMO, it's entirely possible that if Bush had met their request, bin Laden would have been handed over and faced punishment at the time, and a lot of people who are dead now would still be living.
From that reasoned reply I conclude this:
The Taliban regime chose to resist America at that point because we're a 'paper tiger' (besides being infidel dogs they automatically hate). But this time America was angry and they were too stupid to realize the difference. They chose to become our enemy.
Yes, we have "traded one cowpie for another". That is because there are still plenty of Taliban who are not dead. And this is Washington's fault for not prosecuting that war to WIN! Come back Harry Truman, we need you again.
Earl, I originally said, "I've decided I have no clue about US foreign policy. I mean, none. I can't say that what we do is good or bad or what a decent alternative is. The only sure thing is the next step is going to be into another cow pie."So, you missed the point I was making if you think I want or asked for a political discussion, much less think that you're contradicting me. I simply used Afghanistan as an example of how screwed up things could get & no one can honestly argue that point.
Jim wrote: "Mythological & fantasy critters, Joy. Not just the run-of-the-mill vampires & werewolves, although both of those are in there, but different, specific types of witches, demons, & entire pantheons of gods including Christian, Hindu, & Celtic. Makes for a fun mix."Jim, that sure is a mix! I guess it's really fun if you know all the references, parallels, and analogies. And I'm sure YOU DO! :)
Earl, I'm not wanting to keep a political discussion going, nor to add to it, but I just wanted to clarify a possible misunderstanding: Jim didn't write message 879, I did.
I wouldn't say I know all of them, Joy. I have a passing familiarity with Norse mythology, but never cared much for Celtic. The names are harder to pronounce than the Norse ones are, so I get confused. I do have some familiarity with the better known ones & some of the myths, though. Fun stuff & Hearne does a pretty good job of explaining who they are.The only thing I didn't like about the first book was all the heavy handed back story. It would have been a much better book if he hadn't explained so much, but apparently that's just me. You know how I like books that I have to think about. This Immortal is a pretty tough measuring stick.
;-)
Jim, I know what you mean about "back stories". Sometimes flashbacks slow down a story for me. I like stories to move forward. Years ago I gave up on A Prayer for Owen Meany by John Irving because the back story made me impatient to get on with the forward movement of the story.I also know what you mean about names that are hard to pronounce (or have unusual spellings). They're hard to remember and do cause confusion when there are several characters like that.
PS-I guess Zelazny sets the bar pretty high. :)
I just finished Deep Water, #2 in the Castings Trilogy. It took me a while, lack of time mainly. It's just as good as the first one. It's got all the elements of typical fantasy, the quest, the magic, yet it's better than most...I'm impressed. I'll be starting the 3rd book later tonight, Full Circle.
Darn it! I started Hounded & got 60 pages into it before I realized there HAD to be another book, not just a short story, before it. Yup! Turned out it is #3 in the series NOT #2, which is Hexed. Grrr. I HATE it when I do that. Anyway, I stopped & started "Hexed" now. Unfortunately, I read some spoilers.
I hate when that happens! Now I always check here for series to see how many and what order they're in. I've had Hounded on my To Read list for a while, I've heard it's really good. I entered a giveaway for it, wish me luck!
Good luck, Jackie! :)Jim, next time do what Jackie does...check! :)
Jackie wrote: "I just finished Deep Water, #2 in the Castings Trilogy. It took me a while, lack of time mainly. It's just as good as the first one. It's got all the elements of typical fantasy, the quest, the m..."Good going, Jackie. How do you find all these books?
I see that Pamela Freeman is an Australian author.
Thanks for the link to Full Circle.
This series I found at Science Fiction Book Club; every month I get a catalog with short write-ups on some of their books. It's a good way of finding books I'd otherwise never hear about.
Jackie wrote: "This series I found at Science Fiction Book Club; every month I get a catalog with short write-ups on some of their books. It's a good way of finding books I'd otherwise never hear about."Ah, yes, catalogs! I find a lot of stuff via catalogs. They're addictive. :) Here's a cute item I recently found in a hard copy catalog and asked Eddie to give me for Christmas:
http://www.expressionscatalog.com/ite...
He said it's too expensive. It is. But I like it. :) I love miniatures. Don't know why.
My mother likes miniature items too. Maybe I should have said it's a pamphlet, 30 pages or so. Full of books! I love when it comes in the mail. I belong to SFBC and get one every month. I get 7 free books (I think) and I have to buy 4 books in 2 years. That's easy for me to do. I always fulfill my commitment long before the time is up.
I always check series, too. I don't know how I goofed it up, but I have the books on my ereader as "2-Hounded" & "3-Hexed".
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Glens Falls (NY) Online Book Discussion Group
Books mentioned in this topic
My Favorite Comedies in Music (other topics)My Favorite Intermissions: Lives of the Musical Greats and Other Facts You Never Knew You Were Missing (other topics)
Timebends: A Life (other topics)
My Name Is Mary Sutter (other topics)
Pomp and Circumstance (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Arthur Miller (other topics)Victor Borge (other topics)
Robin Oliveira (other topics)
Michael J. Sullivan (other topics)
M.H. Clark (other topics)
More...
Nina, I'm sure that the book, In the Garden of Beasts: Love, Terror, and an American Family in Hitler's Berlin, will be an intriguing look behind the scenes as Hitler rose to power.
When I was in college, majoring in history, I did a paper on Hitler's rise to power. I went to the NYC public library and searched through their microfilms for the newspaper articles about Hitler around the 1930s, articles in which, with the power of hindsight, you could see the trouble brewing. Hitler said over and over what he aimed to do but not enough people worried about it, I suppose.
Good luck with your memoirs, Nina.